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CW21's 2017 NFL Draft Thread (RB Grades Updated)
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlash wrote:
LuckIsGOAT wrote:
No love for Joe Williams?


Didn't know much about him. Man was he on a tear the second half of the season. Problem is why did he "quit" or "retire" after a couple games this year?


That's kinda where I was/am with him. The "retirement" issue is going to loom large, and you better believe the teams are going to ride him hard on that. And hopefully he'll be able to answer questions about his passion for the game. And there's not a lot of video on him, unless you're wanting to go through game tape. He's a good prospect, but there's enough red flags with his commitment that I'd be leery of investing anything high into him.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calvert28 wrote:
Personally I would have moved up Leggett, Gallman, and Trub up one round.


Moved Leggett up a little bit, but I'm not sure Gallman or Trubisky have done anything to warrant that. Not sure I'd put Gallman in the same tier as guys like D'Onta Foreman or Christian McCaffrey. Don't get me wrong, I think he'll be a solid starting RB but there's nothing there that really excites me with him. Solid runner, but nothing special. Similar thing with Trubisky. There's nothing there that excites me. In terms of tools, there's a few others in this class that outpace him, and his offense has a lot of high completions which probably does boost his accuracy although I'm not concerned about his accuracy.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Offensive rankings are updated, OL rankings are still a work in progress though. Started on my DB rankings.
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topwop1


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 FYI you have Jourdan Lewis listed in both the 1st round and 3rd round in your rankings on page 1.

I'm curious, which is it?

Also, Desmond and not Justin King - Iowa.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

topwop1 wrote:
CWood21 FYI you have Jourdan Lewis listed in both the 1st round and 3rd round in your rankings on page 1.

I'm curious, which is it?

Also, Desmond and not Justin King - Iowa.


Good catch on both. As far Lewis, he probably should have been slotted in the 2nd round. I like him, and he's got a keen ability to mirror receivers exceptionally well but he's going to get feasted on my bigger receivers. He's a slightly bigger version of Jason Verett. I know in the past I've been critical of short corners, and when given the choice I'll take taller, long corners but Lewis is probably one of those players that I think can get past his height concerns I have for him.

As for Justin King, kinda reminds me of Micah Hyde another Hawkeye. A bit more physically gifted than Hyde was coming out, but his tools play up because of his instincts. A bit shorter than you'd like, and measured in with short arms at the Senior Bowl really hurt him. Gonna fall down the board for that reason. Might make a transition to safety if corner doesn't work out for him.
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Chwf3rd25


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why do you have Kareem Hunt and Cooper Kupp so low?
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
why do you have Kareem Hunt and Cooper Kupp so low?
Unwarranted senior bowl hype is the worst. He has them right around where he should have them.
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Chwf3rd25


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
Chwf3rd25 wrote:
why do you have Kareem Hunt and Cooper Kupp so low?
Unwarranted senior bowl hype is the worst. He has them right around where he should have them.


Their play in the senior bowl just validated what's already on tape. Both Hunt and Kupp already had exceptional tape the question was whether it was legit b/c they were at small schools.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
why do you have Kareem Hunt and Cooper Kupp so low?


Can't say I disagree with IDOG. I usually don't let Senior Bowl performances really affect one way or the other, might give them a tick up a round or two. But overall, they're not supposed to overhaul rankings. As for Hunt, what exactly stands out about him? He's a solid back, but I'm not sure there's anything that gets you excited. And I'm not sure there's a specific system that really is going to make him exceed. And I think you're doing a disservice if you're praising his OL, I can't how many times he wasn't touched until he was 3+ yards past the LOS before a defender touched him. For me, he's got a ton of mileage on his legs, doesn't really have any notable upside, and there's some personality concerns for me.

As for Kupp, he's in a similar boat. There's nothing exciting about him. Played in an offense that manufactured production, and didn't really run routes at Eastern Washington. Level of competition is an issues as his age. I just see a bunch of negatives, and not a ton of positives from him. Look past Kupp's production, what generates a bunch of interest from you?
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Groink


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can call Kupp's Senior Bowl hype unwarranted, but he did exactly what he was supposed to do. He dominated his level of competition his whole college career, and needed to come there and show that he could do it against the highest level of competition. Which he consistently did all week. Besides his age (he'll be 24 next summer) he's checking all the boxes so far. I don't care if he supposedly "didn't really run routes at Eastern Washington" whatever that means. He ran some precise crisp routes, got separation, and caught everything in sight all week.

He was a late-bloomer, and didn't receive hardly any D1 interest. Kind of like a certain Eagles starting quarterback. Doesn't mean anything. The kid is a hard worker and has a high football iq. If you could grab him late 2nd-3rd round, I think you get a solid number 2 wr that could contribute early. And I think his athleticism is sold short. He's no burner, but he has solid speed that he maintains during cuts. But I guess we all see things a little differently.
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Chwf3rd25


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
Chwf3rd25 wrote:
why do you have Kareem Hunt and Cooper Kupp so low?


Can't say I disagree with IDOG. I usually don't let Senior Bowl performances really affect one way or the other, might give them a tick up a round or two. But overall, they're not supposed to overhaul rankings. As for Hunt, what exactly stands out about him? He's a solid back, but I'm not sure there's anything that gets you excited. And I'm not sure there's a specific system that really is going to make him exceed. And I think you're doing a disservice if you're praising his OL, I can't how many times he wasn't touched until he was 3+ yards past the LOS before a defender touched him. For me, he's got a ton of mileage on his legs, doesn't really have any notable upside, and there's some personality concerns for me.

As for Kupp, he's in a similar boat. There's nothing exciting about him. Played in an offense that manufactured production, and didn't really run routes at Eastern Washington. Level of competition is an issues as his age. I just see a bunch of negatives, and not a ton of positives from him. Look past Kupp's production, what generates a bunch of interest from you?


Kupp has great hands, runs solid routes, and has both NFL quality size and speed. I get the critique involving the system and his age but he consistently makes plays after the catch, production that was not generated by the offense but by his own ability. As to the level of competition, he destroyed Oregon and then by all accounts was the best WR at the Senior Bowl practices. I just don't get why he would be ranked below a guy like Zay Jones for instance, whose production was similarly manufactured by the offense, doesn't catch anything over 15 yards, doesn't do much after the catch, and cannot separate versus man because of his lack of speed.

For Kareem Hunt, he's incredibly explosive, has great lateral agility, runs violently, catches the ball well, and has sufficient long speed. As to the quality of his blocking, there are plenty of examples of him eluding defenders either by running over them, breaking arm tackles, or avoiding them with his lateral quickness. A guy like D'Onta Foreman had even better run blocking than Hunt yet he's ranked significantly ahead of Hunt. I don't know about the character issues so I can't comment on that.

I wasn't asking about these guys because of their Senior Bowl performances but because their tape is excellent and how they performed at the Senior Bowl just validated what was already on film.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
Kupp has great hands, runs solid routes, and has both NFL quality size and speed. I get the critique involving the system and his age but he consistently makes plays after the catch, production that was not generated by the offense but by his own ability. As to the level of competition, he destroyed Oregon and then by all accounts was the best WR at the Senior Bowl practices. I just don't get why he would be ranked below a guy like Zay Jones for instance, whose production was similarly manufactured by the offense, doesn't catch anything over 15 yards, doesn't do much after the catch, and cannot separate versus man because of his lack of speed.


Except Kupp doesn't run very many routes, so calling them "solid routes" is probably a generous description. He's an average athlete who runs average at best routes, that's not exactly a winning combination at the next level. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a solid pro and he's going to have a decent career (quality #3 WR), but there's nothing there that gets you that warm and fuzzy feeling. As for the difference between he and Zay Jones, you'll notice they're graded out in the same round. Difference between the players is minimal, and I think level of competition is the biggest separator between the two. East Carolina didn't play this crazy tough competition, but they faced tougher competition than Eastern Washington. Neither one of them are #1 WR, and probably not higher end #2s even if things go well.


Chwf3rd25 wrote:
For Kareem Hunt, he's incredibly explosive, has great lateral agility, runs violently, catches the ball well, and has sufficient long speed. As to the quality of his blocking, there are plenty of examples of him eluding defenders either by running over them, breaking arm tackles, or avoiding them with his lateral quickness. A guy like D'Onta Foreman had even better run blocking than Hunt yet he's ranked significantly ahead of Hunt. I don't know about the character issues so I can't comment on that.


Again, look at the number of times he wasn't touched until he was 3+ yards past the LOS. You watch him, you see a very solid back. No special traits. Calling him incredibly explosive is probably a bit generous, especially in comparison to the really explosive backs in this year's class. I'd call him above-average in this regard. Similarly, I'd call him above-average with lateral agility. Definitely disregard him as a violent runner, I'd keep that towards guys like Jamaal Williams and D'Onta Foreman. Guys that seek contact, and try to run defenders over are guys who are violent runners. Watch Hunt when he's got a defender in the hole, his feet stop moving and he goes backwards. I'd even argue that a guy like Fournette is an angry runner. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was also the first year that Hunt was used extensively as a pass catcher out of the backfield.


Chwf3rd25 wrote:
I wasn't asking about these guys because of their Senior Bowl performances but because their tape is excellent and how they performed at the Senior Bowl just validated what was already on film.


The Senior Bowl, like the Combine, should validate what you saw prior to them. What new traits did Kupp or Hunt show at the Senior Bowl that you didn't see while they played at Eastern Washington or Toledo respectively? LIS, you can make an argument that they're a round or two lower than they probably should be, which is largely a matter of preference difference. But I'm not sure that arguing that they're criminally underrated is the right answer. Both are guys I think are going to be solid pros, and probably serviceable starters. But neither are guys you're going to move heaven and earth to be your starters.
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Chwf3rd25


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
Chwf3rd25 wrote:
Kupp has great hands, runs solid routes, and has both NFL quality size and speed. I get the critique involving the system and his age but he consistently makes plays after the catch, production that was not generated by the offense but by his own ability. As to the level of competition, he destroyed Oregon and then by all accounts was the best WR at the Senior Bowl practices. I just don't get why he would be ranked below a guy like Zay Jones for instance, whose production was similarly manufactured by the offense, doesn't catch anything over 15 yards, doesn't do much after the catch, and cannot separate versus man because of his lack of speed.


Except Kupp doesn't run very many routes, so calling them "solid routes" is probably a generous description. He's an average athlete who runs average at best routes, that's not exactly a winning combination at the next level. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a solid pro and he's going to have a decent career (quality #3 WR), but there's nothing there that gets you that warm and fuzzy feeling. As for the difference between he and Zay Jones, you'll notice they're graded out in the same round. Difference between the players is minimal, and I think level of competition is the biggest separator between the two. East Carolina didn't play this crazy tough competition, but they faced tougher competition than Eastern Washington. Neither one of them are #1 WR, and probably not higher end #2s even if things go well.


Chwf3rd25 wrote:
For Kareem Hunt, he's incredibly explosive, has great lateral agility, runs violently, catches the ball well, and has sufficient long speed. As to the quality of his blocking, there are plenty of examples of him eluding defenders either by running over them, breaking arm tackles, or avoiding them with his lateral quickness. A guy like D'Onta Foreman had even better run blocking than Hunt yet he's ranked significantly ahead of Hunt. I don't know about the character issues so I can't comment on that.


Again, look at the number of times he wasn't touched until he was 3+ yards past the LOS. You watch him, you see a very solid back. No special traits. Calling him incredibly explosive is probably a bit generous, especially in comparison to the really explosive backs in this year's class. I'd call him above-average in this regard. Similarly, I'd call him above-average with lateral agility. Definitely disregard him as a violent runner, I'd keep that towards guys like Jamaal Williams and D'Onta Foreman. Guys that seek contact, and try to run defenders over are guys who are violent runners. Watch Hunt when he's got a defender in the hole, his feet stop moving and he goes backwards. I'd even argue that a guy like Fournette is an angry runner. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was also the first year that Hunt was used extensively as a pass catcher out of the backfield.


Chwf3rd25 wrote:
I wasn't asking about these guys because of their Senior Bowl performances but because their tape is excellent and how they performed at the Senior Bowl just validated what was already on film.


The Senior Bowl, like the Combine, should validate what you saw prior to them. What new traits did Kupp or Hunt show at the Senior Bowl that you didn't see while they played at Eastern Washington or Toledo respectively? LIS, you can make an argument that they're a round or two lower than they probably should be, which is largely a matter of preference difference. But I'm not sure that arguing that they're criminally underrated is the right answer. Both are guys I think are going to be solid pros, and probably serviceable starters. But neither are guys you're going to move heaven and earth to be your starters.


Thanks for the explanation, I just wanted to know what you saw in their games that differed from my own evaluation. Keep up the good work, I enjoy your thread and how much effort you put into it.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
Except Kupp doesn't run very many routes, so calling them "solid routes" is probably a generous description. He's an average athlete who runs average at best routes, that's not exactly a winning combination at the next level. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a solid pro and he's going to have a decent career (quality #3 WR), but there's nothing there that gets you that warm and fuzzy feeling. As for the difference between he and Zay Jones, you'll notice they're graded out in the same round. Difference between the players is minimal, and I think level of competition is the biggest separator between the two. East Carolina didn't play this crazy tough competition, but they faced tougher competition than Eastern Washington. Neither one of them are #1 WR, and probably not higher end #2s even if things go well.


If things go well, both those guys are easily high-end #2 WRs. I'll take both guys on my WR corp any day of the week. I'm tired of the Rams employing WRs who don't catch the football.

You're seriously underrating Zay Jones. I have a feeling he's going to be very high on the Patriots' WR list (especially if he performs well in the 3CD).

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
Kupp has great hands, runs solid routes, and has both NFL quality size and speed. I get the critique involving the system and his age but he consistently makes plays after the catch, production that was not generated by the offense but by his own ability. As to the level of competition, he destroyed Oregon and then by all accounts was the best WR at the Senior Bowl practices. I just don't get why he would be ranked below a guy like Zay Jones for instance, whose production was similarly manufactured by the offense, doesn't catch anything over 15 yards, doesn't do much after the catch, and cannot separate versus man because of his lack of speed.


Dude, what are you talking about? Zay Jones was creating yardage after the catch all year long. And he showed the ability to separate versus man against guys who are playing on Sundays and will play on Sundays. Not to mention the fact that he'll also make contested catches while covered.

Jones separates because he's a technician with stop and start quickness. And it definitely helps that he catches everything in sight.

You can hype Kupp without selling Jones short.
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Chwf3rd25


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
Except Kupp doesn't run very many routes, so calling them "solid routes" is probably a generous description. He's an average athlete who runs average at best routes, that's not exactly a winning combination at the next level. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a solid pro and he's going to have a decent career (quality #3 WR), but there's nothing there that gets you that warm and fuzzy feeling. As for the difference between he and Zay Jones, you'll notice they're graded out in the same round. Difference between the players is minimal, and I think level of competition is the biggest separator between the two. East Carolina didn't play this crazy tough competition, but they faced tougher competition than Eastern Washington. Neither one of them are #1 WR, and probably not higher end #2s even if things go well.


If things go well, both those guys are easily high-end #2 WRs. I'll take both guys on my WR corp any day of the week. I'm tired of the Rams employing WRs who don't catch the football.

You're seriously underrating Zay Jones. I have a feeling he's going to be very high on the Patriots' WR list (especially if he performs well in the 3CD).

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
Kupp has great hands, runs solid routes, and has both NFL quality size and speed. I get the critique involving the system and his age but he consistently makes plays after the catch, production that was not generated by the offense but by his own ability. As to the level of competition, he destroyed Oregon and then by all accounts was the best WR at the Senior Bowl practices. I just don't get why he would be ranked below a guy like Zay Jones for instance, whose production was similarly manufactured by the offense, doesn't catch anything over 15 yards, doesn't do much after the catch, and cannot separate versus man because of his lack of speed.


Dude, what are you talking about? Zay Jones was creating yardage after the catch all year long. And he showed the ability to separate versus man against guys who are playing on Sundays and will play on Sundays. Not to mention the fact that he'll also make contested catches while covered.

Jones separates because he's a technician with stop and start quickness. And it definitely helps that he catches everything in sight.

You can hype Kupp without selling Jones short.


I just didn't like Jones that much, his hands are phenomenal but it looked like he was running in slow motion and everything was under 15 yards w/o much after the catch. I only watched South Carolina and Cincinnati though, I'll watch a few more games this week.
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