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2017 Draft Prospect Thread - Never Too Early
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Heimdallr


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gopherwrestler wrote:
Like I said if we send away our future 1st for a 2nd rounder and that pick doesn't work out we will be saying goodbye to Spielman, Zimmer, Shurmur, and Sparono for good. Bradford would also be likely to walk, along with other of our top free agents in 2018. We would be starting a rebuild process none of us want to see again. It will never happen.

That is a pretty big overreaction on one missed pick.

In order to trade away a future 1st the player would need to be a legitimate 1st-round player where trading away a 1st in't actually losing much value. That is the only scenario where I would be looking to move a future pick.

Regardless, I don't see it happening.
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gopherwrestler


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe it would be. In all reality it would be 2 missed first round picks in two years.


If next year, we don't make the playoffs, Bradford gets hurt or doesn't play to the level to lead us to the playoffs and he leaves us in 2018 would you call that 1st round pick trade a "bust"? Remember we also gave up a 2018 4th.

If we give up our 2018 1st, for a 2nd and draft a lineman, and he doesn't play as well as expected and we have a season of failure and don't make the playoffs what would you expect to happen?

That would be 2 drafts in a row without a 1st round pick.

Now lets say on top of this Treadwell and Waynes never "get it figured out" in this time?

4 years, 4 1st round picks of fails. I would guess that would lead to someone being fired.

I realize this is all hypothetical, but in real life it would be very unrealistic for us to give up a future pick with higher value for a pick of lower value.

In real life this is like a loan. A loan you have high interest on. A loan you possibly won't be able to pay back.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gopherwrestler wrote:
I don't believe it would be. In all reality it would be 2 missed first round picks in two years.


If next year, we don't make the playoffs, Bradford gets hurt or doesn't play to the level to lead us to the playoffs and he leaves us in 2018 would you call that 1st round pick trade a "bust"? Remember we also gave up a 2018 4th.

If we give up our 2018 1st, for a 2nd and draft a lineman, and he doesn't play as well as expected and we have a season of failure and don't make the playoffs what would you expect to happen?

That would be 2 drafts in a row without a 1st round pick.

Now lets say on top of this Treadwell and Waynes never "get it figured out" in this time?

4 years, 4 1st round picks of fails. I would guess that would lead to someone being fired.

I realize this is all hypothetical, but in real life it would be very unrealistic for us to give up a future pick with higher value for a pick of lower value.

In real life this is like a loan. A loan you have high interest on. A loan you possibly won't be able to pay back.


Imo, you are trying to have it both ways.

1. We can't trade for a guy the scouts think is a legit starter, because he might not be.
2. we have to keep our first round pick, so those same scouts/GM can use it well.....

Either you trust the scouts, or you don't.

As for not making the trade of a first for a guy they think is a starter, and using an old FA as a short term stop gap, aren't you just punting the problem to a future year, and need MORE picks somehow to fill the hole next year?
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gopherwrestler


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:

Imo, you are trying to have it both ways.

1. We can't trade for a guy the scouts think is a legit starter, because he might not be.
2. we have to keep our first round pick, so those same scouts/GM can use it well.....

Either you trust the scouts, or you don't.

As for not making the trade of a first for a guy they think is a starter, and using an old FA as a short term stop gap, aren't you just punting the problem to a future year, and need MORE picks somehow to fill the hole next year?


1. I never said that, sure we can trade, but not a future 1st.
-I would prefer to trade our later round picks with our second to move up and keep our 1st for the future.
2. Yes, value is much higher. I trust the scouts here in this situation. I also trust the numbers.
-I'll trust the scouts to draft a player of higher caliber in the 1st round than any other round. Talent pool is usually much greater.


From what I've seen, most scouts would probably agree trading up for an offensive lineman may not be best suited for this year. The talent pool just isn't there. There may be some future decent players, most likely at this point you will be trading up for a player that won't make an instant impact.

If I am trading up in the first 2 rounds, I'm looking for a player that will come in, make an instant impact to the team. Your investing on 1 player, where you could have 2 that could develop into something.
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Heimdallr


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gopherwrestler wrote:
There may be some future decent players, most likely at this point you will be trading up for a player that won't make an instant impact.

Obviously nobody is going to trade up unless it is for an impact player.
gopherwrestler wrote:
If I am trading up in the first 2 rounds, I'm looking for a player that will come in, make an instant impact to the team. Your investing on 1 player, where you could have 2 that could develop into something.

isn't this the exact opposite of what you just said?
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gopherwrestler


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heimdallr wrote:
gopherwrestler wrote:
If I am trading up in the first 2 rounds, I'm looking for a player that will come in, make an instant impact to the team. Your investing on 1 player, where you could have 2 that could develop into something.

isn't this the exact opposite of what you just said?


yes? notice the comma. I don't get your point here, I gave both sides of the trade.

1 player that you need to be an immediate impact player.
may never develop

or keep your pick.

2 players you hope to make an impact in the future. Out of these two there is a shot for them to come in and make an immediate impact.

I'll take my shot at having my current 2nd round pick and my 2018 1st round pick. Having 1 of them develop into a great player than just taking a shot at one 2nd round player.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would appear to be one disconnect, no one is suggesting trading their current 2nd and next year's first for a second round pick this year.....
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gopherwrestler


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that would be the disconnect here. I see that now after going back you did not say trade both. I did believe that you did say both and that's where I saw it making no sense.

Either way,
I still do not trade my future 1st for a 2nd for the same reason.
You are still gambling a lot if the pick isn't a surefire type player, when the next year that same pick could be a top 10 pick, if all hell breaks loose.

Most of the time, like I said, when you see a future 1st traded it is usually for a franchise QB towards the top of round 1.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gopherwrestler wrote:
Yes, that would be the disconnect here. I see that now after going back you did not say trade both. I did believe that you did say both and that's where I saw it making no sense.

Either way,
I still do not trade my future 1st for a 2nd for the same reason.
You are still gambling a lot if the pick isn't a surefire type player, when the next year that same pick could be a top 10 pick, if all hell breaks loose.

Most of the time, like I said, when you see a future 1st traded it is usually for a franchise QB towards the top of round 1.


fair, we'll just disagree on that....
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Purplexing


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JDBrocks wrote:
Purplexing wrote:
SemperFeist wrote:
JDBrocks wrote:
This is why people go into debt and end up filing for bankruptcy. Constantly pushing the payments forward is a good way to end up in a hole. Mortgaging the future is a bad idea unless it is for a generational QB imo.

Not even for that. When has it worked?


Have only 'generational' QBs won the SB?

cough Flacco cough Johnson cough Namath cough Dawson cough Theisman cough Plunkett cough McMahon cough Hostettler cough Williams cough Rypien cough Dilfer cough cough cough coughhhhhh!


Do you need a cough drop? Is it easier to compete with a top tier QB or not?


Avoiding my question doesn't refute the underlying principles and facts.

cough Dan Marino cough
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Purplexing


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gopherwrestler wrote:
Trading picks for picks is fine, but giving up 3+ picks in the first 96 picks for 1 player with an uncertain future, with our draft history of offensive lineman recently, I would judge it.

Ill take my chances with spending 2 picks this year, and a 1st next year to find one lineman, instead of trading up for just 1 lineman in a sub-par offensive tackle draft.


Re-read my initial question carefully.

I suggested a trade and offered 3 options, not a 3 for 1 trade.

Sorry if it was confusingly worded. It doesn't seem so. But ... Embarassed
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Purplexing


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
That would appear to be one disconnect, no one is suggesting trading their current 2nd and next year's first for a second round pick this year.....


Correct; I originally said trade, but threw in about 3 examples of what would be added from next year to a pick this year.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RPM Speedy Mock
2nd - Antonio Garcia - T - Troy
3rd - Taylor Moton - G/T - Western Michigan

Trade 3rd for 3rd + 2018 4th (recoup pick from Bradford trade)

3rd - Semaje Perine - RB - Oklahoma
4th - Nazair Jones - DT - North Carolina
4th - Travin Dural - WR - LSU
5th - Tyus Bowser - LB - Houston
6th - Fabian Moreau - CB - UCLA
7th - Xavier Woods - SS - La Tech
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Heimdallr


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Moton is there in the 3rd that is a dream come true
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Purplexing


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like the last page or two is a series of posts that interpret my trade proposal in various ways.

Let me clarify; I only propose a FAIR VALUE TRADE, perhaps according to the NFL trade value rules....

And the OT would have to be a blue chip guy who would have had a good Combine showing and a mutually agreed to readiness to play immediately or very soon in his rookie year.

OK, everybody who is still interested in discussing this hypothetical trade idea to more quickly and assuredly rebuild the OL... take a deep breath, ... ready, steady, ..... POST!
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