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1st Round (27th Overall): Kenny Clark [DT; UCLA]
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at Cam Jordan athletically and that's what the Packers were hoping to get out of Jones. Main difference really were in the attitudes between the 2.
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TransientTexan


Joined: 27 Jul 2014
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Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCPackFan wrote:

He's just another DL who was part of that horrific experiment on defense during the 2012 and 2013 seasons. The only difference between himself and the other busts like Khyri Thornton and Josh Boyd is that he was a first rounder...


Lol, that's a bit rich. DJones is no pro-bowler, but he is miles ahead of those other guys. I'd argue that you wouldn't see him as a bust at all if he hadn't been a 1st-rounder.

There was nothing horrific about the 2012 defense outside of the Keapernick playoff game which distorts everyone's memories. 2013 they were middle-of-the-pack when not having to compensate for garbage/turnover-happy 3rd string QB play
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NCPackFan


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TransientTexan wrote:
NCPackFan wrote:

He's just another DL who was part of that horrific experiment on defense during the 2012 and 2013 seasons. The only difference between himself and the other busts like Khyri Thornton and Josh Boyd is that he was a first rounder...


Lol, that's a bit rich. DJones is no pro-bowler, but he is miles ahead of those other guys. I'd argue that you wouldn't see him as a bust at all if he hadn't been a 1st-rounder.

There was nothing horrific about the 2012 defense outside of the Keapernick playoff game which distorts everyone's memories. 2013 they were middle-of-the-pack when not having to compensate for garbage/turnover-happy 3rd string QB play


It was more than that, they were in the bottom half of the league in run defense and had a ton of younger players still trying to learn Capers' defense. Furthermore, we kept arguing here and elsewhere about Dom "not having his guys" or that "the coverage scheme is too complicated."

Furthermore, Jones really only had one respectable year; last year. Even if he wasn't a first rounder, he was a bust; plain and simple...
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NCPackFan


Joined: 12 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:


What the hell are you talking about?

Datone Jones was not a 4-3 DE in college. UCLA runs a base 3-4. It's probably the closest defense in college football to what the Packers run on the front end.


They have that style of defense now, but they didn't until Jones' last year. Therefore, he was drafted on his potential, not what was proven. Every scouting report on him suggested he would fit because of his length and that he had to put on 10-15 lbs. in order to adjust to the NFL. Of course we all know that didn't happen.


Also, to Raymond's point; Jordan stayed healthy, Jones did not...
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TransientTexan


Joined: 27 Jul 2014
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Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCPackFan wrote:


It was more than that, they were in the bottom half of the league in run defense and had a ton of younger players still trying to learn Capers' defense. Furthermore, we kept arguing here and elsewhere about Dom "not having his guys" or that "the coverage scheme is too complicated."

Furthermore, Jones really only had one respectable year; last year. Even if he wasn't a first rounder, he was a bust; plain and simple...


So by your logic, Perry is a bust since 1 year doesn't count... I guarantee you, people would've been fine w/ DJones' production if he had been taken in the 4th-round or later. There are plenty of players in the league that take a few years to start producing.

As for the run defense, they started fine in 2012 and were generally holding teams under their season ypa avg. Then injuries started piling up, especially in the LB group. They were already missing Bishop from preseason, then lost Smith. Not to mention Perry missing the final 10+ games and Matthews missing 4+. That's why Walden, Moses, and BJones played so many snaps. It's important to put context to the numbers.

2013 run D was middle-of-the-pack, again holding teams under their season ypa avg more often than not until midseason when Arod, Finley, and Cobb all went down. The offense couldn't sustain drives after that, which wore out the D. Not to mention ranking in the top-5 in games lost to injury at the LB group.
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ChaRisMa


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TransientTexan wrote:
NCPackFan wrote:


It was more than that, they were in the bottom half of the league in run defense and had a ton of younger players still trying to learn Capers' defense. Furthermore, we kept arguing here and elsewhere about Dom "not having his guys" or that "the coverage scheme is too complicated."

Furthermore, Jones really only had one respectable year; last year. Even if he wasn't a first rounder, he was a bust; plain and simple...


So by your logic, Perry is a bust since 1 year doesn't count... I guarantee you, people would've been fine w/ DJones' production if he had been taken in the 4th-round or later. There are plenty of players in the league that take a few years to start producing.

As for the run defense, they started fine in 2012 and were generally holding teams under their season ypa avg. Then injuries started piling up, especially in the LB group. They were already missing Bishop from preseason, then lost Smith. Not to mention Perry missing the final 10+ games and Matthews missing 4+. That's why Walden, Moses, and BJones played so many snaps. It's important to put context to the numbers.

2013 run D was middle-of-the-pack, again holding teams under their season ypa avg more often than not until midseason when Arod, Finley, and Cobb all went down. The offense couldn't sustain drives after that, which wore out the D. Not to mention ranking in the top-5 in games lost to injury at the LB group.

I promise you I'd be just as happy Datone is gone as I am now no matter where he was drafted. Dude played 53% of the defensive snaps, and only produced 1 sack. Imagine if our OLBs produced 4 sacks total all year, couldn't cover, and each had 3 personal fouls to their name. That's Datone.
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TransientTexan


Joined: 27 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChaRisMa wrote:

I promise you I'd be just as happy Datone is gone as I am now no matter where he was drafted. Dude played 53% of the defensive snaps, and only produced 1 sack. Imagine if our OLBs produced 4 sacks total all year, couldn't cover, and each had 3 personal fouls to their name. That's Datone.


1. Pressure isn't always shown in sack stats. And he's produced sacks in more limited snaps in previous seasons.
2. There is room in the league for non-starting-caliber players. He didn't do terribly compared other backups around the league.
3. How many edge guys are actually good in coverage? I don't see it as a major problem considering that 96% of GB OLB snaps do not involve coverage.

I don't have a problem with him being gone now. But I didn't have a problem with him being on the roster the past 4 years either.
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ChaRisMa


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TransientTexan wrote:
ChaRisMa wrote:

I promise you I'd be just as happy Datone is gone as I am now no matter where he was drafted. Dude played 53% of the defensive snaps, and only produced 1 sack. Imagine if our OLBs produced 4 sacks total all year, couldn't cover, and each had 3 personal fouls to their name. That's Datone.


1. Pressure isn't always shown in sack stats. And he's produced sacks in more limited snaps in previous seasons.
2. There is room in the league for non-starting-caliber players. He didn't do terribly compared other backups around the league.
3. How many edge guys are actually good in coverage? I don't see it as a major problem considering that 96% of GB OLB snaps do not involve coverage.

I don't have a problem with him being gone now. But I didn't have a problem with him being on the roster the past 4 years either.

1. The pressure stat drives me crazy. I like that it shows something a simple stat line doesn't. But let's face it here, no one is going to the Hall of Fame for pressures. I'm sure he is altering throws, but that doesn't stop the playoff caliber QBs, and it doesn't kill drives like a sack does. They are great to have when you pair up with descent sack numbers, because it shows consistency. But when you only get home 1 time all year given that number of reps, you stink.
2. He played a starters share of snaps last year in a defense that is designed to give him 1 v 1s. Again, 1 sack, regardless of other stats, is a HUGE red flag. Hell, Fackrell had 2 sacks in 400 fewer snaps as a rookie.
3. This supports my argument. Datone is moving forward or laterally every down, yet only gets home once.

I had no problem with the pick, I have a problem with how he's developed. And by all accounts so far he's been lead to water, he just won't drink.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCPackFan wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:


What the hell are you talking about?

Datone Jones was not a 4-3 DE in college. UCLA runs a base 3-4. It's probably the closest defense in college football to what the Packers run on the front end.


They have that style of defense now, but they didn't until Jones' last year. Therefore, he was drafted on his potential, not what was proven. Every scouting report on him suggested he would fit because of his length and that he had to put on 10-15 lbs. in order to adjust to the NFL. Of course we all know that didn't happen.


Also, to Raymond's point; Jordan stayed healthy, Jones did not...


How many years do you think most NFL draft prospects have in a scheme very close to the one they'll play in the pros?

How many prospects don't need to put on some good weight to be effective NFL players?

Jones' failures with us were never about talent. They were on a personal and medical level. As a GM you have to be aware of those things, but they're also the things that aren't apparent on tape.
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From the day he was born and subsequently starting to grow into his short neck, round face, scruffy beard and pale face, Bulaga was destined to be a Packers O-Linemen for life.
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Stevein2012


Joined: 12 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChaRisMa wrote:
TransientTexan wrote:
ChaRisMa wrote:

I promise you I'd be just as happy Datone is gone as I am now no matter where he was drafted. Dude played 53% of the defensive snaps, and only produced 1 sack. Imagine if our OLBs produced 4 sacks total all year, couldn't cover, and each had 3 personal fouls to their name. That's Datone.


1. Pressure isn't always shown in sack stats. And he's produced sacks in more limited snaps in previous seasons.
2. There is room in the league for non-starting-caliber players. He didn't do terribly compared other backups around the league.
3. How many edge guys are actually good in coverage? I don't see it as a major problem considering that 96% of GB OLB snaps do not involve coverage.

I don't have a problem with him being gone now. But I didn't have a problem with him being on the roster the past 4 years either.

1. The pressure stat drives me crazy. I like that it shows something a simple stat line doesn't. But let's face it here, no one is going to the Hall of Fame for pressures. I'm sure he is altering throws, but that doesn't stop the playoff caliber QBs, and it doesn't kill drives like a sack does. They are great to have when you pair up with descent sack numbers, because it shows consistency. But when you only get home 1 time all year given that number of reps, you stink.
2. He played a starters share of snaps last year in a defense that is designed to give him 1 v 1s. Again, 1 sack, regardless of other stats, is a HUGE red flag. Hell, Fackrell had 2 sacks in 400 fewer snaps as a rookie.
3. This supports my argument. Datone is moving forward or laterally every down, yet only gets home once.

I had no problem with the pick, I have a problem with how he's developed. And by all accounts so far he's been lead to water, he just won't drink.


Well you aren't talking about a potential HOF but a back up. Even if he had like 5 or 6 sacks that tells what he did on 6 of his 550 snaps it still doesn't say much considering not all sacks are even always a result of a particularly good play by the player who got the sack. Pressures/hits/TFL etc... all together (with sacks) give a bigger picture of performance, ignoring them all together except 1 and saying it drives you crazy just makes you look like you don't actually care about reality and have something against the player.

He was an OLB in name yes but he played a lot of snaps on the line unless I'm mistaken. Basing your argument on his production as a pure OLB for 550 snaps is a bit disingenuous.

All in all he was a good versatile back up last year. He held up better against the run on the edge than he had previously inside and got some pressure on the QB both off the edge and inside. An improvement at that spot this year would be great but he was certainly worth his roster spot.
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NCPackFan


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Jones' failures with us were never about talent.


Never said that. It was all about fit.
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MNPackfan32


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCPackFan wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Jones' failures with us were never about talent.


Never said that. It was all about fit.
Just curious, what defense do you think he would be a good fit in?
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NormSizedMidget


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might have said this already here but if Datone goes and has like IDK 8-10 sacks for MIN and people start lamenting about him like they did with the Casey Hayward hindsight stuff, I give up talking football lol

Last guy didn't ask me, but inside at UT for MIN. Which is what I believe they asking him to do. Put on some weight, play inside.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NormSizedMidget wrote:
I might have said this already here but if Datone goes and has like IDK 8-10 sacks for MIN and people start lamenting about him like they did with the Casey Hayward hindsight stuff, I give up talking football lol

Last guy didn't ask me, but inside at UT for MIN. Which is what I believe they asking him to do. Put on some weight, play inside.


It'll be interesting to see if he's willing to do what he needs to do to be that guy for them. And if he's willing to do it in his first year, will he be willing to do it in years 2 through 5?
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BroncoinGermany wrote:
From the day he was born and subsequently starting to grow into his short neck, round face, scruffy beard and pale face, Bulaga was destined to be a Packers O-Linemen for life.
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CentralFC


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still had to chuckle when Jones sent out a tweet about "coming after" Rodgers.

lol ok have fun with that.
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packerjmf wrote:
GWH87 wrote:
Somebody take the off season shovel out of Ted's hands & bury him in his own hole.

How can he dig a hole if he's too busy sitting on his hands?
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