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Teddy's Wants and Needs (No 5th year option? Pg.72)
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Dolmonite26


Joined: 05 Jan 2014
Posts: 1693
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks for the replies. I think you're all reasonably justified in your relativly high opinion of Bradford, even if I might disagree (I believe most of you would say the same of my opinion of Teddy). Which is why In fielded the question.

Personally I think giving him an extension now is a mistake. Last year was nice and promising but not something I'm willing to a guy 20M+ over.

I'm harder on quarterbacks than most, however, and don't like the idea of playing the Flaccos of the world big money. I think that the Flacco, Dalton, etc etc contracts ultimately hurt those teams and their ability to build rosters suitible to their talent levels, and I'm worried that this is the tier of quarterback Bradford exits in.

All this to say I think a wait and see approach is the better thing do to all around, and this goes double when you add the Teddy variable.
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CriminalMind


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 8509
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dolmonite26 wrote:
Ok thanks for the replies. I think you're all reasonably justified in your relativly high opinion of Bradford, even if I might disagree (I believe most of you would say the same of my opinion of Teddy). Which is why In fielded the question.

Personally I think giving him an extension now is a mistake. Last year was nice and promising but not something I'm willing to a guy 20M+ over.

I'm harder on quarterbacks than most, however, and don't like the idea of playing the Flaccos of the world big money. I think that the Flacco, Dalton, etc etc contracts ultimately hurt those teams and their ability to build rosters suitible to their talent levels, and I'm worried that this is the tier of quarterback Bradford exits in.

All this to say I think a wait and see approach is the better thing do to all around, and this goes double when you add the Teddy variable.


I understand the thought of "why invest $20M into an average QB". The only answer is because teams with QB salary/ranking in the 18-27, have no chance. So if you don't want to roll with Bradford and his $20M, you might as well trade Bradford and tank to draft your next QBoTF hopeful. Not saying its the best idea, but its certainly an option.
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Boda


Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 2040
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purplexing wrote:
Boda wrote:
Purplexing wrote:
Boda wrote:
Purplexing wrote:
Assume you are drafting players to form a Major League baseball expansion team.

You are on the clock.

Two players, A, and B, are available.

Which player do you prefer;

Player A. batting avg .355 in Triple A
Player B. batting avg .337, with .370 batting avg on 3-2 counts, in Triple A.

Whats player A batting on 3-2 counts?


Less than .370.

That does me absolutely no good. If Player A is batting anything more than .300 I easily take player A but with a batting average of .355 he's more than likely batting somewhere around .330 or higher but you said anything under .370 so what if Player A is batting .369 in 3-2 counts.

The next question I have is what are their respective ages? Yes they're both in AAA but that doesn't really mean a thing.

I know I'm being difficult


Ages doesn't mean a thing to help a QB win games, unless you consider the extremes in age; i.e. rookie year, sophomore year, age 40+ years.

Would you rather add Tom Brady or Christian Ponder to your roster?

Both in AAA does mean both aren't a complete success story, yet. Both have potential. So, being in AAA is meaningful, pointing to potential not fully realized.

What is significant is a set of stats about performance; e.g. RBI, fielding %, runs, SB, Sac Flies, 2Bs, 3Bs, HRs, ...rather than BA in 3-2 pitch counts alone.

But we weren't talking about winning games we were talking about starting a franchise, right?
.
Now with that said obviously age doesn't mean anything to a QB's success but that wasn't your question. You were talking about baseball & starting a franchise.

This is actually something I love to do especially with baseball and I know i'm going to get off topic here but it's something i've done quite a bit of on 2 different baseball simulation games(Mogul & OOTP) where you take control and act as the GM. Something I was very very good at so I know how or rather what to look for in players when building a team Cool

Now getting back on topic. I can safely say that I would take just about any QB over Christian Ponder and I don't say that because of how bad he was here I say that because of how bad he was in college and because I have had absolutely no faith in him since day 1.

However starting franchises in baseball and football are two completely different formula's. The future is important in Football but not as important as the present is. Especially in todays NFL where it's all about what have you done for me lately, where as baseball where there is no salary cap you have to be able to build through the draft if you're a small market team.
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Worm Guts


Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 1365
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Dolmonite26 wrote:
http://zonecoverage.com/2017/vikings/quarterback-salaries-are-flattening-relatively-which-might-make-bradwater-tough-but-not-impossible/

Article from Arif in regards to the impending cap situation with Bridgewater and Bradford. Interesting even if he didn't draw a very helpful conclusion.


Bradford needs to be extended, I don't see how MNcan avoid that.

I'd rather not devote 38 million on the QB position in 2018. At that point, I'd rather just let Teddy test the market and not give him the 5th year option.


I guess I don't understand the "he has to be extended" thing. What's wrong with just letting it play out? Obviously there's a chance he walks even if we want to keep him, but it's not like we're talking about an elite QB here.
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CriminalMind


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 8509
Location: Toronto, CA
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
Dolmonite26 wrote:
http://zonecoverage.com/2017/vikings/quarterback-salaries-are-flattening-relatively-which-might-make-bradwater-tough-but-not-impossible/

Article from Arif in regards to the impending cap situation with Bridgewater and Bradford. Interesting even if he didn't draw a very helpful conclusion.


Bradford needs to be extended, I don't see how MNcan avoid that.

I'd rather not devote 38 million on the QB position in 2018. At that point, I'd rather just let Teddy test the market and not give him the 5th year option.


I guess I don't understand the "he has to be extended" thing. What's wrong with just letting it play out? Obviously there's a chance he walks even if we want to keep him, but it's not like we're talking about an elite QB here.


If we let both Teddy walk (too much on 5th year) and Bradford walk (he got a really good offer from another team) ... assuming we are picking in the 20's ... I prefer to roll with a "Case Keenum" or "Taylor Heinicke" at $2M salary then pony up $15M for Taylor/Glennon types
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Cearbhall


Joined: 08 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
I guess I don't understand the "he has to be extended" thing. What's wrong with just letting it play out? Obviously there's a chance he walks even if we want to keep him, but it's not like we're talking about an elite QB here.


Right on!

If Bradford were a top ten QB in this league the team wouldn't risk letting him leave for another team. Through six years, Bradford has shown himself to be a mediocre QB. He may have a late career epiphany and turn it around, but after six years the odds are heavily against that. Average NFL QB might be the best level Bradford ever reaches.

To be fair, average NFL QB is a level unreached by a Vikings QB for any duration since probably Tarkenton. Depending on what duration you are looking for you might only be able to go back the few good years Culpepper had with the team.

Even if Bradford suddenly takes his game to the next level (improbably, but not impossible) the Vikings would not really be risking letting him go by not extending him this year. If Bradford turns that corner the franchise salaries for a couple years would be a fine bargain. Meanwhile, Bridgewater might prove himself to be the better option.

I see very little reason to have the kind of faith in Bradford to extend him unless he signs an extension that is very team friendly. Such an extension would be setup as year-to-year options for the team with Bradford.
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
Dolmonite26 wrote:
http://zonecoverage.com/2017/vikings/quarterback-salaries-are-flattening-relatively-which-might-make-bradwater-tough-but-not-impossible/

Article from Arif in regards to the impending cap situation with Bridgewater and Bradford. Interesting even if he didn't draw a very helpful conclusion.


Bradford needs to be extended, I don't see how MNcan avoid that.

I'd rather not devote 38 million on the QB position in 2018. At that point, I'd rather just let Teddy test the market and not give him the 5th year option.


I guess I don't understand the "he has to be extended" thing. What's wrong with just letting it play out? Obviously there's a chance he walks even if we want to keep him, but it's not like we're talking about an elite QB here.


There obviously is the option to franchise tag Bradford, if all else fails.
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VikeManDan


Joined: 22 Dec 2010
Posts: 3190
Location: Minnesota
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the franchise tag is an option. The top 5 salaries for 2018 are:

Joe Flacco: $24,750,000
Andrew Luck: $24,400,000
Ben Roethlisberger: $23,200,000
Eli Manning: $22,200,000
Tom Brady: $22,000,000

http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/2018/

That totals $116,550,000 divided by 5 gives us a tag value of $23,310,000. I realize this number could change if QBs get new contracts.

Someone had posted an article from Arif about the possibility of keeping 2 QBs at ~$38 million. Tagging Bradford and picking up Teddy's 5th year option ($18 million per Arif's article) would be around ~$41 million tied up in the QB position not included QB3. Is it viable to do that for one year to make a decision on which QB to roll with?

Quote:
CBS Sports article: The window for exercising fifth-year options with first-round picks starts after a player's third regular season in the NFL ends (Jan. 2, 2017 with the 2014 first-round picks). The deadline to pick up the option year is May 2.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-a-team-by-team-guide-to-fifth-year-option-decisions/

If the 5/2 date is true we'll be finding out a little bit of the Vikings plan at the QB position.
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CriminalMind


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 8509
Location: Toronto, CA
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VikeManDan wrote:
Perhaps the franchise tag is an option. The top 5 salaries for 2018 are:

Joe Flacco: $24,750,000
Andrew Luck: $24,400,000
Ben Roethlisberger: $23,200,000
Eli Manning: $22,200,000
Tom Brady: $22,000,000

http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/2018/

That totals $116,550,000 divided by 5 gives us a tag value of $23,310,000. I realize this number could change if QBs get new contracts.

Someone had posted an article from Arif about the possibility of keeping 2 QBs at ~$38 million. Tagging Bradford and picking up Teddy's 5th year option ($18 million per Arif's article) would be around ~$41 million tied up in the QB position not included QB3. Is it viable to do that for one year to make a decision on which QB to roll with?

Quote:
CBS Sports article: The window for exercising fifth-year options with first-round picks starts after a player's third regular season in the NFL ends (Jan. 2, 2017 with the 2014 first-round picks). The deadline to pick up the option year is May 2.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-a-team-by-team-guide-to-fifth-year-option-decisions/

If the 5/2 date is true we'll be finding out a little bit of the Vikings plan at the QB position.


As with Kalil, the deadline to pick up the option is one date. But there is another date in early March 2018, where we can still cut him with little/no penalty before that 5th year.
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Purplexing


Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 5306
Location: Outside Valhalla, looking in.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boda wrote:
Purplexing wrote:
Boda wrote:
Purplexing wrote:
Boda wrote:
Purplexing wrote:
Assume you are drafting players to form a Major League baseball expansion team.

You are on the clock.

Two players, A, and B, are available.

Which player do you prefer;

Player A. batting avg .355 in Triple A
Player B. batting avg .337, with .370 batting avg on 3-2 counts, in Triple A.

Whats player A batting on 3-2 counts?


Less than .370.

That does me absolutely no good. If Player A is batting anything more than .300 I easily take player A but with a batting average of .355 he's more than likely batting somewhere around .330 or higher but you said anything under .370 so what if Player A is batting .369 in 3-2 counts.

The next question I have is what are their respective ages? Yes they're both in AAA but that doesn't really mean a thing.

I know I'm being difficult


Ages doesn't mean a thing to help a QB win games, unless you consider the extremes in age; i.e. rookie year, sophomore year, age 40+ years.

Would you rather add Tom Brady or Christian Ponder to your roster?

Both in AAA does mean both aren't a complete success story, yet. Both have potential. So, being in AAA is meaningful, pointing to potential not fully realized.

What is significant is a set of stats about performance; e.g. RBI, fielding %, runs, SB, Sac Flies, 2Bs, 3Bs, HRs, ...rather than BA in 3-2 pitch counts alone.

But we weren't talking about winning games we were talking about starting a franchise, right?
.
Now with that said obviously age doesn't mean anything to a QB's success but that wasn't your question. You were talking about baseball & starting a franchise.

This is actually something I love to do especially with baseball and I know i'm going to get off topic here but it's something i've done quite a bit of on 2 different baseball simulation games(Mogul & OOTP) where you take control and act as the GM. Something I was very very good at so I know how or rather what to look for in players when building a team Cool

Now getting back on topic. I can safely say that I would take just about any QB over Christian Ponder and I don't say that because of how bad he was here I say that because of how bad he was in college and because I have had absolutely no faith in him since day 1.

However starting franchises in baseball and football are two completely different formula's. The future is important in Football but not as important as the present is. Especially in todays NFL where it's all about what have you done for me lately, where as baseball where there is no salary cap you have to be able to build through the draft if you're a small market team.


'Starting a franchise' is a metaphor for determining the proper player to add to the roster.

Regardless, the decision criteria is the same; add the player best able to help the franchise win games.

Brady or Ponder?
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Cearbhall


Joined: 08 Mar 2017
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
As with Kalil, the deadline to pick up the option is one date. But there is another date in early March 2018, where we can still cut him with little/no penalty before that 5th year.


Neglecting to mention the injury caveat is so major that without it this information seems very misleading even though based in truth.

The fifth year option is not fully guaranteed but it is guaranteed for injury if a team extends it. That is, the team can pull the option before it become fully guaranteed if the player is not injured. If the player is injured, a team cannot pull the fifth year option once it is extended.

We all know that injury is a concern with Bridgewater. The mention of being able to pull the fifth year until next year is really incomplete without including that bit of info about being guaranteed for injury. Especially when the topic is Bridgewater.
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SemperFeist


Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 7831
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 5th year option is guaranteed for future injury. Because Bridgewater is currently injured with his knee, that particular injury doesn't trigger the injury clause of the option.

The only way that the Vikings would be on the hook for Bridgewater's option would be if he played, got hurt again somehow, and was unable to complete an exit physical at the end of the 2017 year.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cearbhall wrote:
really intelligent things...


i like the new guy.
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Klomp


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Joined: 11 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VikeManDan wrote:
Someone had posted an article from Arif about the possibility of keeping 2 QBs at ~$38 million. Tagging Bradford and picking up Teddy's 5th year option ($18 million per Arif's article) would be around ~$41 million tied up in the QB position not included QB3.

That seem's high....

If he's playing well enough to merit the Vikings picking up his fifth-year option, he'd make the average salary of the third- through 25th-highest paid QBs in the league

Also remember, Tony Romo just retired, removing an $18 million contract from the average. The number I just got was $15.6 million, though I'm sure that could change.
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Cearbhall


Joined: 08 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:
The 5th year option is guaranteed for future injury. Because Bridgewater is currently injured with his knee, that particular injury doesn't trigger the injury clause of the option.

The only way that the Vikings would be on the hook for Bridgewater's option would be if he played, got hurt again somehow, and was unable to complete an exit physical at the end of the 2017 year.


That too is an important addendum. What this means is that if the Vikings extended the 5th year option to Bridgewater it would be an additional mental obstacle for the team to overcome before putting him into a game this year. If he isn't going to play either way, it doesn't matter but paying him the fifth year option salary next year may be tough to swallow if they haven't seen him play in two years.
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