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Teddy's Wants and Needs (No 5th year option? Pg.72)
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SemperFeist


Joined: 13 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
But Wallace is no AJ Green. And a receiver that good can make any QB look better.

A receiver like Green might make more contested catches, but how many of those opportunities were there? Not many this year.

When Bridgewater misses, he doesn't miss by a couple of inches or feet, where a receiver like Green has a chance. His misses are uncatchable.

Which is ultimately my point. Bridgewater simply hasn't shown the ability to pass down field effectively enough to where it's justifiable to spend such a large contract on a receiver, including Wallace.
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Bermuda Viking


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:
Why do people automatically assume that adding Jeffrey, or any wide receiver, would result in anything different than what we saw with Wallace? Wallace had no trouble getting open or getting separation, Bridgewater simply kept over throwing him, or flat out failed to see him. How is that going to change with someone else?

The Vikings could have Julio Jones, A.J. Green, and Dez Bryant as their top 3 receivers, but until Bridgewater fixes his mechanical issues, no wide receiver is going to help the downfield passing game.


"The Vikings could have Julio Jones, A.J. Green, and Dez Bryant...." I'd like to test that!

Teddy needs to improve, but he needs the big play bigger receiver he can send a prayer too. It'll help! I can't see keeping him and Wallace, but I think Alshon is better and 3 inches taller. It is a missing factor.
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Biggs Beefcakes


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:
Krauser wrote:
But Wallace is no AJ Green. And a receiver that good can make any QB look better.

A receiver like Green might make more contested catches, but how many of those opportunities were there? Not many this year.

When Bridgewater misses, he doesn't miss by a couple of inches or feet, where a receiver like Green has a chance. His misses are uncatchable.

Which is ultimately my point. Bridgewater simply hasn't shown the ability to pass down field effectively enough to where it's justifiable to spend such a large contract on a receiver, including Wallace.


Ever think his misses are because he's trying to be too perfect?

I won't pretend to know what's going through the mind of Bridgewater, but my guess is that he's seen the way Wallace fights for passes, and he sees how small our DBs are and he thinks "this throw needs to be where my receiver is catching it, or nobody is catching it" and he overthrows it because of that.

He's not a great "Go-route" passer, but give him one of those big-bodied WRs who can run a 15-20 yard in-cut or post route and Bridgewater can do damage. He's shown he can make those throws and excels at them.

To say we don't need better WRs because the QB won't hit them anyways is silly...what happens when the QB gets to the point that he can hit them and we have no receivers that can get open?

I still think the best WRs to pair with Bridgewater are the savvy route-runner types like Jennings where he can run timing things and get comfortable knowing he's open. But if you don't get that guy, get the 6'3 220 pound guy who can bail a QB out once in a blue moon.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biggs Beefcakes wrote:
SemperFeist wrote:
Krauser wrote:
But Wallace is no AJ Green. And a receiver that good can make any QB look better.

A receiver like Green might make more contested catches, but how many of those opportunities were there? Not many this year.

When Bridgewater misses, he doesn't miss by a couple of inches or feet, where a receiver like Green has a chance. His misses are uncatchable.

Which is ultimately my point. Bridgewater simply hasn't shown the ability to pass down field effectively enough to where it's justifiable to spend such a large contract on a receiver, including Wallace.


Ever think his misses are because he's trying to be too perfect?

I won't pretend to know what's going through the mind of Bridgewater, but my guess is that he's seen the way Wallace fights for passes, and he sees how small our DBs are and he thinks "this throw needs to be where my receiver is catching it, or nobody is catching it" and he overthrows it because of that.

He's not a great "Go-route" passer, but give him one of those big-bodied WRs who can run a 15-20 yard in-cut or post route and Bridgewater can do damage. He's shown he can make those throws and excels at them.

To say we don't need better WRs because the QB won't hit them anyways is silly...what happens when the QB gets to the point that he can hit them and we have no receivers that can get open?

I still think the best WRs to pair with Bridgewater are the savvy route-runner types like Jennings where he can run timing things and get comfortable knowing he's open. But if you don't get that guy, get the 6'3 220 pound guy who can bail a QB out once in a blue moon.


My guess is that they are bad passes, not even close to where Wallace can catch them.

He didn't miss "a few" of these, probably more like 10-12, 5-7 of which were easy TDs.
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faceofflax15


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
My guess is that they are bad passes, not even close to where Wallace can catch them.

He didn't miss "a few" of these, probably more like 10-12, 5-7 of which were easy TDs.


Very true, but let's not forget we saw Wallace drop an easy TD in one of the first few weeks on a bomb from TB.
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10-12 wide open deep overthrows for 5-7 TDs this year? To Wallace? Or you're counting his rookie season, or targets to other receivers?

AJ Green absolutely helps a QB with poor downfield accuracy. Deep throws often *become* contested because a WR can track the ball in flight, get good position on the DB, time his jump and make a catch.

Scott Kacsmar (FO, PFR) tracks WR catch radius and has found that Green might be the best in the league. Here's his article studying some of the WRs in 2013 -- http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/catch-radius-denver-vs-dvoa-vs-dalton -- with an image showing a collection of Green's work:


As part of that series, Kacsmar has looked at 4 of Mike Wallace's seasons -- 2011-14 with the Steelers and Dolphins. He has never scored above average in terms of making non-strike-zone catches, and has 3 seasons in the bottom third of his table (latest version here: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/catch-radius-deandre-hopkins )

Wallace didn't quite drop the ball in the end zone in San Francisco, the safety grabbed his arm. And the Giants DB broke up what would've been a TD near the end of the year. But even those plays are examples of the limitations of Wallace's game -- he needs the ball placed right in the breadbasket, he waits for it to come to him instead of jumping or boxing out. The fact that he presents a smaller effective target means he's not open as much as a WR who can do better at the catch point.

To be clear, I'm not saying the Vikings need to have an AJ Green type to have a downfield passing attack. The current WRs are probably good enough, as long as Norv finds ways to scheme them open (which is easier if they use spread concepts) and the OL gives the plays time to develop.

But I don't think there's any doubt that a bigger target who can make contested catches would make the passing attack more effective and reliable. And that might make it easier for Teddy to trust what he sees and turn the ball loose even when the receiver isn't wide open.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought that AJ Green was the best in the league, and its nice to see that he finished at the top in that ranking.

I agree with the premise that a WR that cna track the ball in the air and make changes to his run rout and jump up to get a ball, is what Teddy likely needs. That along with better pass protection to allow Teddy the time to deliver the ball are what Teddy needs.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not arguing that Green wouldn't make Teddy better, that would be silly. I'm arguing that Teddy missed WIDE OPEN Wallace on more than "a few" plays, and that there were easy TDs to be had. Easy. And it isn't just Wallace, he missed a lot of wide open deep balls. That catch by Diggs for a TD, the highlight? Awful throw. Amazing catch.
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SemperFeist


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
I'm not arguing that Green wouldn't make Teddy better, that would be silly. I'm arguing that Teddy missed WIDE OPEN Wallace on more than "a few" plays, and that there were easy TDs to be had. Easy. And it isn't just Wallace, he missed a lot of wide open deep balls. That catch by Diggs for a TD, the highlight? Awful throw. Amazing catch.

This.

Obviously every team wants a receiver with Green's talents, but it won't fix Bridgewater's issues.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:
PrplChilPill wrote:
I'm not arguing that Green wouldn't make Teddy better, that would be silly. I'm arguing that Teddy missed WIDE OPEN Wallace on more than "a few" plays, and that there were easy TDs to be had. Easy. And it isn't just Wallace, he missed a lot of wide open deep balls. That catch by Diggs for a TD, the highlight? Awful throw. Amazing catch.

This.

Obviously every team wants a receiver with Green's talents, but it won't fix Bridgewater's issues.


To be clear, I like Bridgewater......but he has work to do on the deep ball, and on passing beyond the sticks on 3rd down (though that is partly the offense and the OL also.....).
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SemperFeist


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
SemperFeist wrote:
PrplChilPill wrote:
I'm not arguing that Green wouldn't make Teddy better, that would be silly. I'm arguing that Teddy missed WIDE OPEN Wallace on more than "a few" plays, and that there were easy TDs to be had. Easy. And it isn't just Wallace, he missed a lot of wide open deep balls. That catch by Diggs for a TD, the highlight? Awful throw. Amazing catch.

This.

Obviously every team wants a receiver with Green's talents, but it won't fix Bridgewater's issues.


To be clear, I like Bridgewater......but he has work to do on the deep ball, and on passing beyond the sticks on 3rd down (though that is partly the offense and the OL also.....).

I agree. I'm certainly not a Bridgewater detractor, he does a lot of things well that are well above average for a young quarterback. Which just makes his issues with some of the basics a bit more frustrating.
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many is "more than a few"?

Off the top of my head, the only wide open misses to Wallace were from midfield in the first Bears game, and the one on the scramble drill in the Rams game.

Maybe you'd also count the deep sideline pass late in the first Packers game, Wallace got a hand to it but couldn't bring it in. Seemed like pretty good placement, but Teddy led him to the sideline, and Wallace bent the route back to the numbers and had to readjust. Is that a wide open miss?

There was also another play in the @CHI game where Wallace was clearly open in a hole in a cover 2 zone, Teddy threw it too high. Wallace lost it in the sun but it was probably uncatchable in bounds. Not sure how deep a route that was, think they were already at the edge of the red zone. Does that count?

Other than that? Wallace had a step on a corner route just before halftime in Denver, and Teddy overthrew him. Again, I think they were around the 20, it was roughly the same throw Teddy hit to Diggs in the Bears game and to Wallace in the Giants game (knocked away).

So 2 bad misses deep where Wallace was wide open, another close call that might've been partly Wallace's fault in tracking the ball, plus 2 more misses on intermediate passes where an accurate throw would've been a TD.

That's not 10-12 misses, or 5-7 TDs. Am I missing something?

Flipping the finger of blame around to Wallace, you can charge him with the pass in the Niners game that hit him in the helmet in the end zone, the deep sideline throw in the Chiefs game that he couldn't bring down in traffic, the end zone throw in the Giants game that he didn't compete for, and 2 deep balls in the Cards game where he didn't finish the route, once where he tangled feet with the DB and tripped, and another where he pulled up short as if to look for a back shoulder throw while the pass landed accurately in the end zone about 5 yards in front of him. There was a reasonably accurate fade route in the end zone that he couldn't bring in (maybe in one of the Lions games? Not sure). Plus there were at least 5 catchable short or intermediate passes that he dropped, mostly along the sidelines, several that would've kept drives moving.

Bottom line is there's no doubt that Mike Wallace has a small strike zone as a receiver, and doesn't do well in contested catch situations. Adding a WR who has more to offer in those areas would make Teddy's life easier, and the passing game more productive.

Teddy does need to improve, but it wouldn't hurt to give him more help too.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my recollection (which may be faulty due to my middle age), at least a couple of times on the deep passes to Wallace, I placed quite a bit of blame on Wallace, who pulled up early or slowed down and then couldn't catch back up.
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SemperFeist


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like PCP said, it wasn't just throws to Wallace. Bridgewater has missed many receivers downfield, and it goes back to last year. Yes, he improved slightly as the year progressed in 2014, but the same problem that plagued him early in 2014 reared it's head in 2015 and didn't improve.

It's funny that arguably his best deep ball was his first deep attempt in San Francisco, and his worst was in the last game against Green Bay.
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gopherwrestler


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot could be due to the fact of confidence in his receivers also.
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