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drd23


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
drd23 wrote:
You've all neglected to mention the biggest factor - the Ravens are one of the worst offenses in football at present and would be doing well to get near league average next year even with a change of OC/OL coach.

It wouldn't really matter if Waller was Ladarius Green or Jimmy Graham for that matter, he would not be fantasy relevant due to that alone.

ziggy19, I'll put it this way - I wouldn't even roster him in my dynasty league with 40-man rosters


I think you're underrating what a true upgrade in an offensive scheme could do. It wouldn't take much since the current bar is Trestman's disaster, but something that's actually effective would be wonderful. Like when Kubiak and Dennison were with the team. The offensive talent on the roster is better than it was then, but they're obviously coached at a far lower level.

Getting an offensive line coach that does things that fits Baltimore's current offensive linemen would be nice too. There isn't going to be a major change in personnel. Stanley, Yanda, and probably Wagner will be back. And they're all good players. Lewis will probably start as well so that just leaves center. A good player there would certainly help, but it's not like the Ravens are going to have a jump in talent level there like they did in going from Gradkowski to a then viable Zuttah.

Coaching and scheme. They're the king and queen of the NFL. But relying on Harbaugh to bring in competent coaches is a whole different matter...

With the exception of 2009 and 2014, the Ravens have been around league average or worse (and even in those years the offense was 8th-10th)

As you said, we're basically hoping that Harbaugh does something he's done once in his entire tenure (find and hire a quality OC) instead of what he usually does (in hiring someone he is friends with) to fix the offense

Next year:
- we won't have our best WR (Smith) and the WR corps as a whole is pretty mediocre
- there will likely be more change on the OL, and if there's not it won't be a positive either
- will likely have another mediocre OC and OL coach (I wouldn't be surprised if it Trestman and Castillo stay on)
- Joe Flacco will still be the QB and therefore will still be very streaky and will go multiple drives at a time where he can't hit a receiver
- the FO will still be building a team for the NFL of 10-15 years ago in terms of personnel, instead of players more suited to the current environment

None of these things lend themselves to anything other than a mediocre offense imo
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
Next year:
- we won't have our best WR (Smith) and the WR corps as a whole is pretty mediocre


I don't think Smith will be a huge loss. I'm probably in the minority there but forcing Flacco to feed other, more consistently... able options is a good thing. And I also have faith in Perriman continuing to develop.

Quote:
- there will likely be more change on the OL, and if there's not it won't be a positive either


Change on the OL can only be a good thing. But like I said before it's more than likely only going to come from one position at the most, and that's center. Any coaching change there can't be worse.

Quote:
- will likely have another mediocre OC and OL coach (I wouldn't be surprised if it Trestman and Castillo stay on)
- Joe Flacco will still be the QB and therefore will still be very streaky and will go multiple drives at a time where he can't hit a receiver
- the FO will still be building a team for the NFL of 10-15 years ago in terms of personnel, instead of players more suited to the current environment

None of these things lend themselves to anything other than a mediocre offense imo


No big arguments with the last three. Flacco is who he is at this point and he will get wild under pressure. Can't expect an offensive line to keep the QB clean 100% of the time. But with more consistent protection Joe will still be good enough to win with so I'm not particularly worried on that part.

I think the front office is sticking to old principles a bit too much as well. They're obviously not prioritizing skill positions on both sides of the ball and that's where solid teams are built these days. Of course good lines will take you places, but Baltimore has been stout up front defensively for a long time yet they continue to pour in multiple assets there every offseason and ignore other areas of need. But please, tell me again how a cornerback just wasn't rated high enough on the draft board... Sad

If Harbaugh keeps Mornhinweg and Castillo around he deserves to be fired. 100%. I will hitch my locomotive to that train and probably be a huge pain in this forum. But it would have to be done. John can't be a positive asset to the team if he can't see what a detriment the coaching is to the offense. Not going to win anything these days like that. Heck, their rolling offense is the reason why Baltimore won the Superbowl a few years ago.
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wackywabbit


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm more optimistic about our roster going forward than you guys. Though, I do think the loss of Smith will hurt; he's a real playmaker. But overall, I feel pretty good about the skill positions. Mike Wallace has been everything I hoped he would and I was more optimistic than anyone. Perriman is contributing now and i still like Chris Moore to develop into something good, so WR is still better than we are used to. Kenneth Dixon is going to be our RB1, if not this year, at the start of next year. As for corner, you could do a LOT worse than Jimmy and Tavon Young as a starting point. It's EXTREMELY rare for a team to feel good about 3 corners. We do need to add some young safeties. We've been lucky so far with Webb and Weedle staying healthy.

The biggest thing you both didn't mention is that Flacco is definitely NOT the same guy we are used to this year. He's clearly been worse this year than the guy we are used to. That guy isn't consistently lighting up the scoreboard, but he's very solid and capable of leading a respectable offense without being carried by surrounding talent. This year's Flacco has been a bottom 5 QB. If more time removed from the injury and a more complete off-season get him back to the old guy, it's going to be the biggest development of our offseason. The impact of the upgrade from a bottom 5 QB to a borderline 10-ish QB is huge.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm clearly on the pessimistic end of the fan base when looking at the talent on offense. How I see it a present would be:

QB: Average (assuming a healthy Flacco goes back to what he was pre-ACL injury)

RB: Average

FB: Elite

TE: Above Average. Gillmore is a good big target, Boyle is a good blocker when he's not suspended and hopefully Maxx Williams develops into the good receiving TE he could be

OL: Potentially above average depending on what happens with Wagner and at LG/C

WR: Below average - I'm very happy with Wallace but don't trust Perriman and never liked the Moore pick. Aiken is okay as a 3rd or 4th WR but doesn't have any special attributes.

wackywabbit wrote:
The biggest thing you both didn't mention is that Flacco is definitely NOT the same guy we are used to this year. He's clearly been worse this year than the guy we are used to. That guy isn't consistently lighting up the scoreboard, but he's very solid and capable of leading a respectable offense without being carried by surrounding talent. This year's Flacco has been a bottom 5 QB. If more time removed from the injury and a more complete off-season get him back to the old guy, it's going to be the biggest development of our offseason. The impact of the upgrade from a bottom 5 QB to a borderline 10-ish QB is huge.


We'll have to see what happens another year away from the ACL injury, but either way, I think that there has been enough development in QBs elsewhere that normal regular-season-Flacco of past years is around 15th now rather than in the argument for top 10 like he was back in 2013/14

In no particular order I'd say
Definitely better (9): Brady; Rodgers; Brees; Roethlisberger; Wilson; Carr; Rivers; Ryan; Newton;
Better (5): Luck; Eli; Romo; Cousins; Stafford;
Pick 'em: Mariota; Dalton; Tyrod; Winston

And that "Pick 'em" group would probably be better than Flacco going forward given age/contract, plus there's the rookies Wentz (who looked great at the start of the season and has faded since) and Prescott (who has been quite impressive) who could be anything.
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Danand


Joined: 12 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of you guys have to be careful. Its not a popular opinion if you write something pessimistic about the team in here.

I agree with Flaccomania and his "Perriman is an awkward athlete" argument, and my anticipation for him is a player who can make big plays but won't put up consistent numbers.

I know the Dallas Oline get a lot of recognition this year, and I know both Dak Prescott and Zeke Elliot makes it look better than it did last year, and I know I always want us to draft fat guys and then maybe 1 defensive back. But I really do think the key to this team is the offensive line, because that is what gets the running game going, and as many other quarterbacks, Flacco can't be effective or dangerous without a runninggame.

Give me that fat man to man the center spot on our team and retain Wagner, and then let Ducasse, Lewis, Urschel and Jensen battle it out for the rest of the spots. Depending on how banged up Zuttah has been this year, he can be in the mix too.

If we get the fat man in the middle that can be our Nick Mangold for years, we won't have the same issue putting players like Gillmore, Boyle, Williams, Perriman, Moore, Aiken and Wallace out there for the next 2-3 seasons.

Oh, and if we can get the same offensive system back, that worked well for Flacco, that would be great.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
Some of you guys have to be careful. Its not a popular opinion if you write something pessimistic about the team in here.

I agree with Flaccomania and his "Perriman is an awkward athlete" argument, and my anticipation for him is a player who can make big plays but won't put up consistent numbers.

I know the Dallas Oline get a lot of recognition this year, and I know both Dak Prescott and Zeke Elliot makes it look better than it did last year, and I know I always want us to draft fat guys and then maybe 1 defensive back. But I really do think the key to this team is the offensive line, because that is what gets the running game going, and as many other quarterbacks, Flacco can't be effective or dangerous without a runninggame.

Give me that fat man to man the center spot on our team and retain Wagner, and then let Ducasse, Lewis, Urschel and Jensen battle it out for the rest of the spots. Depending on how banged up Zuttah has been this year, he can be in the mix too.

If we get the fat man in the middle that can be our Nick Mangold for years, we won't have the same issue putting players like Gillmore, Boyle, Williams, Perriman, Moore, Aiken and Wallace out there for the next 2-3 seasons.

Oh, and if we can get the same offensive system back, that worked well for Flacco, that would be great.


I'm with you. While the skill position players are what makes other teams go, for the Ravens, its all about the OL. Flacco doesn't go if the run game doesn't go and if he doesn't get protection.

C is probably my #1 priority this off-season. Followed by a WR that can run routes other than a straight line, a S that is faster than Webb, and another OLB that can generate some sort of pressure (bc Smith isn't doing it for me and the other 2 bucks are older).
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Flaccomania is a genius who is an expert on literally everything he talks about so you should trust him. [/quote]
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Danand


Joined: 12 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
Danand wrote:
Some of you guys have to be careful. Its not a popular opinion if you write something pessimistic about the team in here.

I agree with Flaccomania and his "Perriman is an awkward athlete" argument, and my anticipation for him is a player who can make big plays but won't put up consistent numbers.

I know the Dallas Oline get a lot of recognition this year, and I know both Dak Prescott and Zeke Elliot makes it look better than it did last year, and I know I always want us to draft fat guys and then maybe 1 defensive back. But I really do think the key to this team is the offensive line, because that is what gets the running game going, and as many other quarterbacks, Flacco can't be effective or dangerous without a runninggame.

Give me that fat man to man the center spot on our team and retain Wagner, and then let Ducasse, Lewis, Urschel and Jensen battle it out for the rest of the spots. Depending on how banged up Zuttah has been this year, he can be in the mix too.

If we get the fat man in the middle that can be our Nick Mangold for years, we won't have the same issue putting players like Gillmore, Boyle, Williams, Perriman, Moore, Aiken and Wallace out there for the next 2-3 seasons.

Oh, and if we can get the same offensive system back, that worked well for Flacco, that would be great.


I'm with you. While the skill position players are what makes other teams go, for the Ravens, its all about the OL. Flacco doesn't go if the run game doesn't go and if he doesn't get protection.

C is probably my #1 priority this off-season. Followed by a WR that can run routes other than a straight line, a S that is faster than Webb, and another OLB that can generate some sort of pressure (bc Smith isn't doing it for me and the other 2 bucks are older).


I really like Cooper Kupp, and while he doesn't explode out of his breaks when it comes to route running, he can really do some damage after the catch with his playstyle.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flacco's struggles this year are a direct result of the offensive line being bad and his confidence in the offensive line being gone. I don't think the knee is a big culprit. But he's streaky even when healthy and has quality protection. Joe is still good enough to win with though so like I said before I'm not worried there.

For what it's worth I don't dislike the roster as it is. Overall the team is pretty talented (when healthy). I'm just not sure it's talented enough in the right places. Those have changed the past few years for most of the league but not in Baltimore. Going against the grain isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not helping the Ravens any in this case.

I'm fine with most of the offense. A more well-rounded receiving group would be nice and focusing less on tight end will help but the backs are fine. It's all about getting a good blocking scheme in. Still, center is moving up my list as the biggest need on the team but I'm putting cornerback way up there. Smith and Young are nice but you can't rely on Jimmy to make it through a whole season. It's just not happening. And when he's out the secondary struggles mightily... unless you're facing the Bengals without AJ Green (or Jones and Sanu). It's a premium position that needs premium insurance, and a third cornerback would be on the field for most of the snaps anyways. Safety is a big concern as well. Absolutely need some quality youth and speed there.

I think that's about it for defense. A #1 pass rusher would be nice but the Ravens aren't going to be in a position to draft one. Well, at least one that's a good bet to develop. Smith has struggled badly this year but he's also been forced to expand his responsibilities. It doesn't look like he's particularly comfortable in doing so. Going back to a more defined pass-rushing role would help a lot. Then there's Judon and Correa. Matt obviously looks good but Kamalei is still raw. Not a big surprise, but he also needs to get on the field to develop. With all that said adding another pass rusher of the same quality of those three probably doesn't help the team much. Pees will always, always keep his edge-setting (and useless in coverage) SAM in the rotation so that takes up a lot of snaps right there. Then Suggs and Dumervil will still be on the roster. No room for anybody else unless he's good enough to force the Ravens to make room for him. Not liking the chances of that happening.
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wackywabbit


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
Flacco's struggles this year are a direct result of the offensive line being bad and his confidence in the offensive line being gone. I don't think the knee is a big culprit. But he's streaky even when healthy and has quality protection. Joe is still good enough to win with though so like I said before I'm not worried there.


I believe those two are related. He's not confident in his ability to take a hit, which is leading to him thinking too much about the O-line and not standing in the pocket and delivering quality passes.

Flacco's a bottom 5 QB this year. It'd be hard to argue that fact. It's way off from the player he's been. Even with bad offensive lines and lesser skill players in the past, the offense has never been near this bad with Flacco. It's definitely fair to call Flacco "streaky" but where/when was the good streak this year? His best performance of the season was probably week 1 when he had only 1 TD and the offense put up 13 points. "Streaky Flacco" would have some legitimately good games this year. Flacco doesn't have a single game with more than a +1 TD-INT differential.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wackywabbit wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Flacco's struggles this year are a direct result of the offensive line being bad and his confidence in the offensive line being gone. I don't think the knee is a big culprit. But he's streaky even when healthy and has quality protection. Joe is still good enough to win with though so like I said before I'm not worried there.


I believe those two are related. He's not confident in his ability to take a hit, which is leading to him thinking too much about the O-line and not standing in the pocket and delivering quality passes.

Flacco's a bottom 5 QB this year. It'd be hard to argue that fact. It's way off from the player he's been. Even with bad offensive lines and lesser skill players in the past, the offense has never been near this bad with Flacco. It's definitely fair to call Flacco "streaky" but where/when was the good streak this year? His best performance of the season was probably week 1 when he had only 1 TD and the offense put up 13 points. "Streaky Flacco" would have some legitimately good games this year. Flacco doesn't have a single game with more than a +1 TD-INT differential.


I'm not arguing Flacco hasn't been bad this year. Just that Joe will likely return to form with some semblance of security in the pocket, regardless of the knee injury.
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paraven


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
wackywabbit wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Flacco's struggles this year are a direct result of the offensive line being bad and his confidence in the offensive line being gone. I don't think the knee is a big culprit. But he's streaky even when healthy and has quality protection. Joe is still good enough to win with though so like I said before I'm not worried there.


I believe those two are related. He's not confident in his ability to take a hit, which is leading to him thinking too much about the O-line and not standing in the pocket and delivering quality passes.

Flacco's a bottom 5 QB this year. It'd be hard to argue that fact. It's way off from the player he's been. Even with bad offensive lines and lesser skill players in the past, the offense has never been near this bad with Flacco. It's definitely fair to call Flacco "streaky" but where/when was the good streak this year? His best performance of the season was probably week 1 when he had only 1 TD and the offense put up 13 points. "Streaky Flacco" would have some legitimately good games this year. Flacco doesn't have a single game with more than a +1 TD-INT differential.


I'm not arguing Flacco hasn't been bad this year. Just that Joe will likely return to form with some semblance of security in the pocket, regardless of the knee injury.


The funny thing is, given how bad flacco has played this year, he is finally on pace to throw for 4000 yards!
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
Some of you guys have to be careful. Its not a popular opinion if you write something pessimistic about the team in here.

I agree with Flaccomania and his "Perriman is an awkward athlete" argument, and my anticipation for him is a player who can make big plays but won't put up consistent numbers.

I know the Dallas Oline get a lot of recognition this year, and I know both Dak Prescott and Zeke Elliot makes it look better than it did last year, and I know I always want us to draft fat guys and then maybe 1 defensive back. But I really do think the key to this team is the offensive line, because that is what gets the running game going, and as many other quarterbacks, Flacco can't be effective or dangerous without a runninggame.

Give me that fat man to man the center spot on our team and retain Wagner, and then let Ducasse, Lewis, Urschel and Jensen battle it out for the rest of the spots. Depending on how banged up Zuttah has been this year, he can be in the mix too.

If we get the fat man in the middle that can be our Nick Mangold for years, we won't have the same issue putting players like Gillmore, Boyle, Williams, Perriman, Moore, Aiken and Wallace out there for the next 2-3 seasons.

Oh, and if we can get the same offensive system back, that worked well for Flacco, that would be great.


Spare me the persecution complex, often all that's on this board is pessimism. People call you out when you go out of your way to be infinitely more pessimistic than reality allows for (i.e. saying our defense has been anything other than good overall this season).

I agree that the OL is the key to getting this offense back on track. In complete agreement with FM that center is the #1 priority for improvement, at least on the offensive side of the ball. More push in the run game and limiting of penetration up the middle will open up lanes for the back. Also, the pocket moving back into Flacco's face has certainly led to some of the poor decisions this season (not that Flacco is completely blameless).
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Danand


Joined: 12 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
Danand wrote:
Some of you guys have to be careful. Its not a popular opinion if you write something pessimistic about the team in here.

I agree with Flaccomania and his "Perriman is an awkward athlete" argument, and my anticipation for him is a player who can make big plays but won't put up consistent numbers.

I know the Dallas Oline get a lot of recognition this year, and I know both Dak Prescott and Zeke Elliot makes it look better than it did last year, and I know I always want us to draft fat guys and then maybe 1 defensive back. But I really do think the key to this team is the offensive line, because that is what gets the running game going, and as many other quarterbacks, Flacco can't be effective or dangerous without a runninggame.

Give me that fat man to man the center spot on our team and retain Wagner, and then let Ducasse, Lewis, Urschel and Jensen battle it out for the rest of the spots. Depending on how banged up Zuttah has been this year, he can be in the mix too.

If we get the fat man in the middle that can be our Nick Mangold for years, we won't have the same issue putting players like Gillmore, Boyle, Williams, Perriman, Moore, Aiken and Wallace out there for the next 2-3 seasons.

Oh, and if we can get the same offensive system back, that worked well for Flacco, that would be great.


Spare me the persecution complex, often all that's on this board is pessimism. People call you out when you go out of your way to be infinitely more pessimistic than reality allows for (i.e. saying our defense has been anything other than good overall this season).

I agree that the OL is the key to getting this offense back on track. In complete agreement with FM that center is the #1 priority for improvement, at least on the offensive side of the ball. More push in the run game and limiting of penetration up the middle will open up lanes for the back. Also, the pocket moving back into Flacco's face has certainly led to some of the poor decisions this season (not that Flacco is completely blameless).


I disagreed about people calling our defense elite, I never said it wasn't good.
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RavensTillIDie


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
Danand wrote:
Some of you guys have to be careful. Its not a popular opinion if you write something pessimistic about the team in here.

I agree with Flaccomania and his "Perriman is an awkward athlete" argument, and my anticipation for him is a player who can make big plays but won't put up consistent numbers.

I know the Dallas Oline get a lot of recognition this year, and I know both Dak Prescott and Zeke Elliot makes it look better than it did last year, and I know I always want us to draft fat guys and then maybe 1 defensive back. But I really do think the key to this team is the offensive line, because that is what gets the running game going, and as many other quarterbacks, Flacco can't be effective or dangerous without a runninggame.

Give me that fat man to man the center spot on our team and retain Wagner, and then let Ducasse, Lewis, Urschel and Jensen battle it out for the rest of the spots. Depending on how banged up Zuttah has been this year, he can be in the mix too.

If we get the fat man in the middle that can be our Nick Mangold for years, we won't have the same issue putting players like Gillmore, Boyle, Williams, Perriman, Moore, Aiken and Wallace out there for the next 2-3 seasons.

Oh, and if we can get the same offensive system back, that worked well for Flacco, that would be great.


Spare me the persecution complex, often all that's on this board is pessimism. People call you out when you go out of your way to be infinitely more pessimistic than reality allows for (i.e. saying our defense has been anything other than good overall this season).

I agree that the OL is the key to getting this offense back on track. In complete agreement with FM that center is the #1 priority for improvement, at least on the offensive side of the ball. More push in the run game and limiting of penetration up the middle will open up lanes for the back. Also, the pocket moving back into Flacco's face has certainly led to some of the poor decisions this season (not that Flacco is completely blameless).


I disagreed about people calling our defense elite, I never said it wasn't good.


Granted, I've been a bit MIA in this part of the forum lately, but knowing the usual folks that frequent this area, who in their right mind would label our defense elite? Laughing
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bananabucket wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
For years the argument has been, mostly, Peyton V Joe V Brady as the GOAT QB.

Flacco?
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RavensTillIDie wrote:
Granted, I've been a bit MIA in this part of the forum lately, but knowing the usual folks that frequent this area, who in their right mind would label our defense elite? Laughing


IDK who said they were "elite" or even really what that means...

But, I haven't heard any good reason why they shouldn't be looked at as a top 5 unit.
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