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Patrick Mahomes II, QB, Texas Tech
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 68408
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Jeezla wrote:
I'd take Mahomes #1 overall. And then I'd sit him for a year
How does this make sense?


How does it not make sense?
why would you spend the #1 pick on a player who isn't good enough to play?


Because you think he's a great QB down the line.
What's one year if it means getting a franchise QB?

Would you refuse to take Aaron Rodgers or Brett Favre if you knew you had to sit them for at least a year?
not if he isn't good enough to play in the first year.


Do you need me to pull up the list of all the great/elite QBs who didn't play as rookies?
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IDOG_det


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Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Jeezla wrote:
I'd take Mahomes #1 overall. And then I'd sit him for a year
How does this make sense?


How does it not make sense?
why would you spend the #1 pick on a player who isn't good enough to play?


Because you think he's a great QB down the line.
What's one year if it means getting a franchise QB?

Would you refuse to take Aaron Rodgers or Brett Favre if you knew you had to sit them for at least a year?
not if he isn't good enough to play in the first year.


Do you need me to pull up the list of all the great/elite QBs who didn't play as rookies?
I would love it if you could find me a list of highly drafted 1st round QB's who sat their first year and went on to be great quarterbacks.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 68408
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Jeezla wrote:
I'd take Mahomes #1 overall. And then I'd sit him for a year
How does this make sense?


How does it not make sense?
why would you spend the #1 pick on a player who isn't good enough to play?


Because you think he's a great QB down the line.
What's one year if it means getting a franchise QB?

Would you refuse to take Aaron Rodgers or Brett Favre if you knew you had to sit them for at least a year?
not if he isn't good enough to play in the first year.


Do you need me to pull up the list of all the great/elite QBs who didn't play as rookies?
I would love it if you could find me a list of highly drafted 1st round QB's who sat their first year and went on to be great quarterbacks.


It's irrelevant where they're drafted. You're making the argument that you can't be a great QB if you have to sit when you're a rookie. But sure, I'll humor you. Let's start with Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Steve McNair, Carson Palmer, and Chad Pennington.
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 40664
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

take him #1 overall? GTFO

not play him for a year? even biger GTFO...

draft him #1 overall, let him sit for a year, and when the Browns get the #1 pick again, they could then use it to draft a legit QB then...
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
It's irrelevant where they're drafted. You're making the argument that you can't be a great QB if you have to sit when you're a rookie.
Draft position is relevant actually. Early draft picks will be given more chances than later draft picks, even if they aren't as good. Later draft picks may be good enough to go early on but may not get a chance because of their draft position. Also, I'm not saying that QB's who sit can't be great. I'm saying that QB's who aren't good enough or "too raw" to play, and therefore have to sit, won't be great. That distinction is very important yet very easy to understand.

jrry32 wrote:
Let's start with Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Steve McNair, Carson Palmer, and Chad Pennington.
Phillip Rivers was under Drew Brees for two years. He didn't sit because he was bad, he sat because the Chargers already had a QB. I already explained Aaron Rodgers and Carson Palmer so I'll just refer you to that instead of repeating myself. Steve McNair did have two starts in his rookie season. He should've started earlier despite Chris Chandler playing very well, Jeff Fisher was just too slow to make the change. He didn't sit because he was bad, he sat because Jeff Fisher isn't a good coach. Chad Pennington was drafted after an aging Vinny Testaverde ruptured his achilles and they weren't sure if he'd be able to return. Vinny Testaverde did return though, so Chad Pennington had to wait for his turn because the proven veteran was still in place. In the third season after Chad Pennington was drafted, an old Vinny Testaverde played poorly for four games and they finally gave Chad Pennginton his shot. Chad Pennington didn't sit because he wasn't good enough, he sat because the Jets already had a quarterback that could get them to the playoffs. They only ever gave him a legit chance at the spot when Vinny Testaverde wasn't winning games for them.
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Ragnarok


Joined: 17 Oct 2016
Posts: 851
Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Mahomes is my favorite QB in this class. I love his attitude, confidence, work ethic, and arm talent. I think a lot of his 'bad decisions' were the product of him trying to push the limits of what he could get away with. Unlike a Kizer or Kaaya, whose bad decisions came from an inability to read the defense and/or an unwillingness to stand in the pocket...Mahomes has really good field vision and no fear. I think he would see a questionable throw, and would then see if he could get away with it to help his team. All he needs is a HC/QBC that can reign him in a little bit to throw some of those bad balls away, and he could be special. He won't have to do everything himself in the NFL and he needs to understand that.

And obviously improvements can be made on footwork and all the other mechanics. Because all QBs need work on mechanics. But I think his issues can be coached up pretty quick.
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like Jay Cutler to me, without the natural release...eerily similar pocket awareness and mechanics (or lack of) to Cutler. And Cutler is still a better natural thrower than Mahomes.


Depending on how you feel about Cutler, I'm not sure I would dub him a Franchise guy..
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brownie man


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
Looks like Jay Cutler to me, without the natural release...eerily similar pocket awareness and mechanics (or lack of) to Cutler. And Cutler is still a better natural thrower than Mahomes.


Depending on how you feel about Cutler, I'm not sure I would dub him a Franchise guy..


I think if Cutler had a positive attitude he could have had a much better career
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DraftHobbyist


Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Posts: 349
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragnarok wrote:
So Mahomes is my favorite QB in this class. I love his attitude, confidence, work ethic, and arm talent. I think a lot of his 'bad decisions' were the product of him trying to push the limits of what he could get away with. Unlike a Kizer or Kaaya, whose bad decisions came from an inability to read the defense and/or an unwillingness to stand in the pocket...Mahomes has really good field vision and no fear. I think he would see a questionable throw, and would then see if he could get away with it to help his team. All he needs is a HC/QBC that can reign him in a little bit to throw some of those bad balls away, and he could be special. He won't have to do everything himself in the NFL and he needs to understand that.

And obviously improvements can be made on footwork and all the other mechanics. Because all QBs need work on mechanics. But I think his issues can be coached up pretty quick.


I disagree strongly with this. Reading Defenses and standing in the pocket is what Kaaya does. Mahomes misses all kinds of open WR's, which is why his damage is usually done after the play breaks down. Sure, all players need work on their mechanics, but not all players need equal work on their mechanics. Mahomes needs a heck of a lot more work than other top guys, especially Kaaya.
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Calvin-Stafford


Joined: 29 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DraftHobbyist wrote:
I disagree strongly with this. Reading Defenses and standing in the pocket is what Kaaya does. Mahomes misses all kinds of open WR's, which is why his damage is usually done after the play breaks down. Sure, all players need work on their mechanics, but not all players need equal work on their mechanics. Mahomes needs a heck of a lot more work than other top guys, especially Kaaya.

I don't have All-22 film, so I can't speak to him missing open WRs, but Mahomes does plenty of damage inside the pocket too. He's a little too happy to leave the pocket, but he does stand in there and make his share of throws too so I don't think it's a major issue. It's not like Manziel where he's straight-up abandoning clean pockets. Kaaya has other isssues, by the way.

Overall Mahomes to me is a guy who needs a lot of work, but also has tons of natural ability. I'm willing to gamble that Mahomes' natural ability, given a year or two of work, can overshadow his rough edges.
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brownie man wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
Looks like Jay Cutler to me, without the natural release...eerily similar pocket awareness and mechanics (or lack of) to Cutler. And Cutler is still a better natural thrower than Mahomes.


Depending on how you feel about Cutler, I'm not sure I would dub him a Franchise guy..


I think if Cutler had a positive attitude he could have had a much better career
I don't think it has anything to do with attitude, bc the guys in the locker room loved Jay. I think his development was screwed up by having 6 coordinators in 8 years. Jay had the same coordinator for 2 years 1 time as a Bear. Mike Martz. That resulted in a 2010 NFCCG appearance and followed up with a 7-3 start averaging nearly 30 ppg and being one of the best teams in the NFC before he went down for the rest of the season with a thumb injury.
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Iamcanadian


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
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Location: Wallaceburg, Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now, Mahomes has almost no pocket discipline. He bales out of the pocket way too early and he will throw a ball into coverage with little thought for the danger.

He has a solid arm which always intrigues scouts and GM's, but he will have to learn to stay way longer in the pocket, right now he has no internal clock that the great QB's all have, which tells them when to bale and when to stay.

I, for one, will not be shocked to see him fall to very late round 1 or even round 2. He has a long way to get before he can start in the NFL.
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Senor Mortgage


Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
Right now, Mahomes has almost no pocket discipline. He bales out of the pocket way too early and he will throw a ball into coverage with little thought for the danger.

He has a solid arm which always intrigues scouts and GM's, but he will have to learn to stay way longer in the pocket, right now he has no internal clock that the great QB's all have, which tells them when to bale and when to stay.

I, for one, will not be shocked to see him fall to very late round 1 or even round 2. He has a long way to get before he can start in the NFL.


My thoughts. Especially this year, he's the annual tall athletic guy with a cannon arm that half the league falls in love with because he looks the part and is "coachable." He can improve (similar situation to Tannehill) but Mahomes does not know how to really play football right now, he knows how to throw a football.
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silus


Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What intrigues me about Mahomes is the pro-athlete lineage. He already knows from first hand experience what it takes to be a professional athlete. Not only that, he moved from baseball to football simply because he fell in love with the game. I like what i'm seeing here.
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RayBringsPain


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 1169
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Jeezla wrote:
I'd take Mahomes #1 overall. And then I'd sit him for a year
How does this make sense?


How does it not make sense?
why would you spend the #1 pick on a player who isn't good enough to play?


Because you think he's a great QB down the line.
What's one year if it means getting a franchise QB?

Would you refuse to take Aaron Rodgers or Brett Favre if you knew you had to sit them for at least a year?
not if he isn't good enough to play in the first year.


Do you need me to pull up the list of all the great/elite QBs who didn't play as rookies?
I would love it if you could find me a list of highly drafted 1st round QB's who sat their first year and went on to be great quarterbacks.


It's irrelevant where they're drafted. You're making the argument that you can't be a great QB if you have to sit when you're a rookie. But sure, I'll humor you. Let's start with Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Steve McNair, Carson Palmer, and Chad Pennington.


Only one of those is great; the rest are simply good but nowhere near great...only one went 1 overall

Mahomes should go in the 4th he's the hype product of a shockingly [inappropriate/removed]-poor QB draft
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