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Patrick Mahomes II, QB, Texas Tech
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich7sena wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Brees was more than fine and Eli actually showed promise despite struggling some. Neither were bad like Manziel. Manziel clearly didn't belong in the NFL.

Not defending Manziel, but Brees wasn't "more than fine" - they drafted his replacement just two years later - and Eli Manning had a sub 50% completion rate.

Point is, a player's rookie year tells you less than his college career does - good or bad.
sure
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
Calvin-Stafford wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Quarterbacks who are bad early on stay bad.

Huh? You would've given up on Aikman and Manning?
don't know about Aikman, but Manning wasn't bad early on. His play was easily above average at the time.


Eli stunk as a rookie and Peyton had 20+ interceptions. After his rookie year, I didn't think Eli had a shot to be a real franchise QB, but he proved me wrong.

The list of Hall of Fame QB's who had miserable rookie seasons is as long as my arm. A lot depends on what system you come from and how big an adjustment a QB has to make.
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DalCowboyzRule


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/04/17/dan-rooney-dean-blandino-nfl-draft-peter-king

Peter King has a few interesting notes in here, saying he's hearing Mahomes is going top 15, with notes on Cleveland @12 and Arizona @13 possibly being the place.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Calvin-Stafford wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Quarterbacks who are bad early on stay bad.

Huh? You would've given up on Aikman and Manning?
don't know about Aikman, but Manning wasn't bad early on. His play was easily above average at the time.

Drew Brees? Eli Manning?
Brees was more than fine and Eli actually showed promise despite struggling some. Neither were bad like Manziel. Manziel clearly didn't belong in the NFL.


IDOG, you're fighting a losing battle here. You overstated things a bit. However, let's not lose sight of the ultimate point. QBs who start badly with bad work habits don't tend to pan out. You either need to have the work habits to overcome your early struggles, or you need the natural talent to play well despite your underwhelming work habits.
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silus


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
silus wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
silus wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
DalCowboyzRule wrote:
Jon Gruden just said on ESPN he would take Mahomes #1 overall. Cool

He also said that about Manziel. I think it's clear he has a type.

To be fair, Manziel didn't fail because of his football play, so I wouldn't use that against Gruden.
To be fair, Manziel did fail because of his football play


I'm not sure why people say Manziel failed because of the off the field stuff. He sucked crap on the field too. Laughing
Because people wanted him to be good and can't accept that they could possibly be wrong

People that say he was bad can't accept that he was a rookie. And not just any rookie, a rookie that never got his off the field stuff in order. So no, we never got to see Manziel's potential on the NFL field, so it's irrational to say he failed because of his play. Just basic facts.
He failed because of his play. Quarterbacks who are bad early on stay bad. He was bad. He will never be good.

You just made that up, and it's insane that you would believe it.
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silus


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calvin-Stafford wrote:
silus wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
silus wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
DalCowboyzRule wrote:
Jon Gruden just said on ESPN he would take Mahomes #1 overall. Cool

He also said that about Manziel. I think it's clear he has a type.

To be fair, Manziel didn't fail because of his football play, so I wouldn't use that against Gruden.
To be fair, Manziel did fail because of his football play


I'm not sure why people say Manziel failed because of the off the field stuff. He sucked crap on the field too. Laughing
Because people wanted him to be good and can't accept that they could possibly be wrong

People that say he was bad can't accept that he was a rookie. And not just any rookie, a rookie that never got his off the field stuff in order. So no, we never got to see Manziel's potential on the NFL field, so it's irrational to say he failed because of his play. Just basic facts.

Manziel sucked on the field and then he tanked hard off the field to destroy any remaining vestiges of confidence the franchise had in him. If he was merely an off field headcase and played even average he would probably still be a Brown. If he merely sucked and didn't cause trouble, he would probably still be a Brown. It's a multi-pronged effort to crash and burn like he did. Which has nothing to do with Mahomes, who has more arm talent, a better head on his shoulders, and superior ability in the pocket compared to Manziel.

Sucking as a rookie QB is not breaking news. Plus he had only like 5 total starts. Why are we playing dumb here?
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silus wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
silus wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
silus wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
DalCowboyzRule wrote:
Jon Gruden just said on ESPN he would take Mahomes #1 overall. Cool

He also said that about Manziel. I think it's clear he has a type.

To be fair, Manziel didn't fail because of his football play, so I wouldn't use that against Gruden.
To be fair, Manziel did fail because of his football play


I'm not sure why people say Manziel failed because of the off the field stuff. He sucked crap on the field too. Laughing
Because people wanted him to be good and can't accept that they could possibly be wrong

People that say he was bad can't accept that he was a rookie. And not just any rookie, a rookie that never got his off the field stuff in order. So no, we never got to see Manziel's potential on the NFL field, so it's irrational to say he failed because of his play. Just basic facts.
He failed because of his play. Quarterbacks who are bad early on stay bad. He was bad. He will never be good.

You just made that up, and it's insane that you would believe it.
I didn't but thanks for playing along
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Calvin-Stafford wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Quarterbacks who are bad early on stay bad.

Huh? You would've given up on Aikman and Manning?
don't know about Aikman, but Manning wasn't bad early on. His play was easily above average at the time.

Drew Brees? Eli Manning?
Brees was more than fine and Eli actually showed promise despite struggling some. Neither were bad like Manziel. Manziel clearly didn't belong in the NFL.


IDOG, you're fighting a losing battle here. You overstated things a bit. However, let's not lose sight of the ultimate point. QBs who start badly with bad work habits don't tend to pan out. You either need to have the work habits to overcome your early struggles, or you need the natural talent to play well despite your underwhelming work habits.
I don't think there's anything wrong with what I'm saying, I just think people don't understand the difference between a bad quarterback and a good/talented quarterback that needs to work/improve on a few things. Manziel sucked and it was clear he didn't belong and was lost playing in an NFL offense. Eli wasn't lost, he just made some poor decisions within the framework of a new offense. The same goes for Peyton. Brees didn't even throw 50 passes his first year, but if you look at that and the early part of his 2nd year there's absolutely no way you can say he was a bad quarterback. There's a difference between making a few mistakes and not knowing what the hell you're doing.

I'm not saying guys come in as rookies and play as good as they'll ever get, but if they come in and play bad, they stay bad.
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Calvin-Stafford


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silus wrote:
Calvin-Stafford wrote:
silus wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
silus wrote:
Rich7sena wrote:
DalCowboyzRule wrote:
Jon Gruden just said on ESPN he would take Mahomes #1 overall. Cool

He also said that about Manziel. I think it's clear he has a type.

To be fair, Manziel didn't fail because of his football play, so I wouldn't use that against Gruden.
To be fair, Manziel did fail because of his football play


I'm not sure why people say Manziel failed because of the off the field stuff. He sucked crap on the field too. Laughing
Because people wanted him to be good and can't accept that they could possibly be wrong

People that say he was bad can't accept that he was a rookie. And not just any rookie, a rookie that never got his off the field stuff in order. So no, we never got to see Manziel's potential on the NFL field, so it's irrational to say he failed because of his play. Just basic facts.

Manziel sucked on the field and then he tanked hard off the field to destroy any remaining vestiges of confidence the franchise had in him. If he was merely an off field headcase and played even average he would probably still be a Brown. If he merely sucked and didn't cause trouble, he would probably still be a Brown. It's a multi-pronged effort to crash and burn like he did. Which has nothing to do with Mahomes, who has more arm talent, a better head on his shoulders, and superior ability in the pocket compared to Manziel.

Sucking as a rookie QB is not breaking news. Plus he had only like 5 total starts. Why are we playing dumb here?

Well the fact that he only had 5 total starts is in and of itself telling, isn't it? He, as a first round QB and the future of the franchise, couldn't even beat out Josh McCown, a cheap veteran journeyman. If he was showing any sort of promise, would that have happened?
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DalCowboyzRule


Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we quit discussing Johnny Manziel and other QB's in the Patrick Mahomes thread?

Thanks.
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Jeezla


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Myles Garrett wasn't in this draft and my team needed a QB, I'd take Mahomes #1 overall. And then I'd sit him for a year unless he looks like Dak in the preseason or my stop-gap starter gets hurt.
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brownie man


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Mahomes is going to prove a lot of people wrong.

I'd take him at 12. He's special.
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paul-mac


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get the feeling he's gonna be the next Ryan Nassib/Connor Cook type guy that everyone moves up to the late first in their mocks then he ends up being like a 4th round pick.


I reckon maybe just Trubisky in the first then the two Deseans in the second round. Seems like a real down year for QBs.
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brownie man


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul-mac wrote:
I get the feeling he's gonna be the next Ryan Nassib/Connor Cook type guy that everyone moves up to the late first in their mocks then he ends up being like a 4th round pick.


I reckon maybe just Trubisky in the first then the two Deseans in the second round. Seems like a real down year for QBs.


Those guys were never good though

Mahomes is really good.

Cook never had over a 60% comp rating and Nassib never had the tools to begin with
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Deshone Kizer, Malik Hooker, Carlos Watkins, Adoree Jackson, Budda Baker, TJ Watt, Montravius Adams, Ryan Switzer, Kendall Beckwith, Davis Webb, Des Lawrence, Shelton Gibson, Jamaal Williams, Bucky Hodges
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Jeezla


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too many nice tools in the shed for a GM not to take a chance on him in round 1, imo. Offensive-minded coaches probably dream about putting him on a potters wheel and molding him into their ideal QB. Plus he sort of looks like he's related to Stephen and Seth Curry. My biggest issue with him is his voice is very nerdy.
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Last edited by Jeezla on Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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