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Boston Sports V.3-B's&C's in first round! Sox playing ok
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Which Ace do you want Sox to sign and why?
David Price
60%
 60%  [ 6 ]
Zack Grienke
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
Johnny Cueto
20%
 20%  [ 2 ]
They'll trade for an Ace
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Other
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 10

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I_GET_SAX


Joined: 17 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Boston Sports V.3-B's&C's in first round! Sox playing ok Reply with quote

Last one just got to 100 pages

Sox just made that controversial trade for stud closer Kimbrel.
Posters in favor are myself, PowWw, Pulse and Keyser.
Posters not in favor are Dhunt and Murts.
Let's see what happens regarding an Ace and other moves coming up and discuss in here.

Bruins have had a very meh season so far. Started off ugly and righted the ship somewhat. Defense still hurting. Krejci been best player so far. Marchand still leaving a lot to be desired.

Celtics fans are watching young players on the team with one eye and keeping other eye on Nets to see how their first rounder could help the rebuild. Rumors of a big move for Cousins has already surfaced.
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Last edited by I_GET_SAX on Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:12 pm; edited 25 times in total
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I_GET_SAX


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
PoWww wrote:
Ahhh, hates on Cherington when he hoards prospects and burns DD when he moves prospect.

Lose, lose. Gotta love fans.

My thoughts on the trade...

PoWww wrote:
I'm probably one of the few Sox fans that actually likes this deal and for a few reasons...

1. I find it funny that majority of Sox fans complained about Cherington hoarding prospects and not going all in...and now are up in arms about moving 4 prospects for one of the best closers in baseball. I'll trust DD's track record with trades and see how this plays out before I call for his job.

2. The Red Sox desperately needed to improve their pen. A lot would argue their starting pitching was what kept them out of the post season, but I'd argue it was the BP. Koji is another year older and I don't trust him to close out games at all. Kimbrel is a stud, and he's under control for three years opposed to trading prospects for someone like Chapman. Now, Koji can be the set up man and you have another pretty good reliever in Taz.

3. I've said all along, I think Margot will be a good player, but it was clear he was the most tradable prospect in the Red Sox system. You have to give some to get some. Both Margot and Guerra have a ton of potential. I'd say Guerra's glove is already ML ready and Preller agrees. Saw last night he believes Guerra can compete for the starting job in Spring Training. Pretty high praise for a 19 year old. However, the Sox sold high on him. I'm not expecting him to hit like he did this previous season. I think his ceiling is a Iglesias like player, which the Padres should be happy with.

Margot will get on base a ton and run. Potential to be a great defensive player. I'm not too high on him as a ML Hitter, but could be a solid lead off guy. I'm ok with moving him, because he was blocked by JBJ, Mookie, and Castillo and Benintendi has looked great thus far.

4. The Sox can now focus(and by DD's Press conference last night it sounds like this is the plan) on signing an Ace. After that, it's minor moves to improve the team. Spend $$$ on Price or Grienke. If they can land one of those guys and still keep Moncada, Devers, Espinoza, Benintendi, Kopech, etc. That's big and that's still arguably a LOADED farm.

It's crucial for the Red sox to get one of Price or Grienke(maybe Cueto) so they don't have to move any of their key prospects to get a Ace if they miss out. We'll see how it plays out.


I'm all in favor of trading prospects. That doesn't mean every prospect deal a good one.

Not sure why you felt the need to bash fans when everyone in this thread has articulated pretty good, even if arguable, reasons for liking/disliking the deal. There is plenty of room to say Cherington sucked at trades (and let's not forget his first deals were trading young players/prospects for veterans which didn't work out) and also say this is an overpay.

Trading this package of players for a legitimate OF or a corner IF (even adding another prospect or two to get it done) would be no problem for me.

Philosophically, I don't like trading top prospects, or prospects with rare (for the system) skill sets for closers. Especially a market rate closer who is coming off a "down" year. Obviously, we'd all take Kimbrel's 2015 in a heartbeat as a great year. But he went from ridiculously elite to just very good.

I don't think any sane Sox fan thinks it's a bad move to pick up an elite or very good closer. But that doesn't mean any trade for Kimbrel would be a good one. Winning games is more important than winning trades, I get that. But there is a lot of reason to be concerned about the short and medium term state of the OF and the bloated payroll if they go buy an ace. This trade plays to both of those concerns, taking away the most ML ready OF in the system and add a big salary to the team.

I don't know why you think it's simple "hating" or over the top pessimism to think this was an overpay or a bad trade even if the player they got will help them. If Castillo and Bradley suck miserably next year, we might be looking at this deal and wishing we had either Margot or the lost payroll flexibility to make an in-season deal for an OF.

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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pro-Kimbrel trade folks:

What's the plan for 2016 and 2017 if Bradley/Castillo flop? Benintendi seems too far away and it seems the Sox will have to pay a ton for an ace (and add a few middle tier guys for the bullpen or backup OF spot).

Sell me on the Sox being able to survive those guys putting up .625-.650 OPS next year. Is the plan Ramirez back to LF? Holt in the OF?

That's really my concern with the Kimbrel trade. I have no problems overpaying for elite talent. Those are the guys you should overpay for. But IMO Margot is not the blocked, redundant prospect many Sox fans seem to make him out to be. That is only the case if you're of the belief that Castillo/Bradley + a veteran 4th OF type is a good enough OF for the next year or two. I have no confidence in either of them given how they ended the year.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I mean, the Sox wouldn't be in this position where they needed to trade prospects for a closer if Cherington just paid Miller in the first place.


Well, they weren't going to outbid New York barring something stupid. So we can debate whether or not it made sense to overpay for Miller. Really the issue was not overpaying Miller and overpaying for the dreadful duo of Sandoval/Ramirez. Which is why Cherington is gone. But none of this is relevant to this deal

Quote:

And Kimbrel, isn't just a closer. He is an elite closer. Arguably the best in the game.


Nobody is suggesting he hasn't been an elite closer. But look at the top closers in baseball. Most of them don't have long track records of being elite relievers and most of them were either developed internally for cheap or acquired for much lower prices. Relievers, other than guys like Mariano Rivera, are extremely volatile. I get that it's important to have a great closer, but how much better/more reliable is Kimbrel than Darren O'Day who could have been had for just cash?

Quote:

Before this season, Guerra was just an elite defender. I'm not so sure his hitting his going to translate. We've seen plenty of prospects rake at Greenville and not have it translate.


No problems with dealing Guerra at all. Trading Guerra as well as 2 other solid prospects and (arguably) the 2nd or 3rd best prospect in the system is really the issue. Especially for a guy who will give you maybe 60 innings of work

Quote:

I think Margot is going to be a good major leaguer, but he was easily our most tradable prospect. Benintendi is going to fly through the system. Not to mention I think they've made it pretty clear that they plan is to sign a 4th OF(Chris Young, Gordon rumors).


Benintendi may or may not fly through the system and may or may not be any good. Can't assume either, let alone both. Obviously, we can't assume Margot will be any good, but he's at worst a year away and his defense seems MLB ready.

As for a 4th OF, doesn't mean much to me if that 4th OF has to be the 2nd best OF if/when Bradley/Castillo flop.


Quote:

If they get an ace(preferably Price) then this off-season is a win, IMO. Their system is still stupid good. I'd be very happy with adding Kimbrel and a Price let's say and keeping Moncada, Devers, Benitendi, Espinoza, Kopech, Swihart, etc. Dave Dombrowski didn't come to Boston to build on Baseball America prospect rankings...he wants to win a championship. This trade isn't mortgaging the Sox future and I'll trust his track record with trades.


Is anyone suggesting Dombrowski is trying to build "Baseball America prospect rankings"? I haven't seen any rational Sox fan suggest the team shouldn't move prospects for talent. I think just about everyone understands that trading some kids is a must.

As awful as the bullpen was last year, the OF killed the team too until it was too late (until Castillo/Bradley's hot streaks). I would have preferred to keep as many options as possible to hedge against Bradley going back to his pre and post hot streak form and Castillo being the .650 guy he was last year (even with his hot streak).
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dhunt2402


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's go sign Price. Lefty ace, known AL commodity.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
Let's go sign Price. Lefty ace, known AL commodity.


Agreed, his AL track record makes him the #1 guy I want to see signed
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PoWww


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
Let's go sign Price. Lefty ace, known AL commodity.


Agreed, his AL track record makes him the #1 guy I want to see signed


Yup. #1 guy I want.

Celtics note: Got to love how bad the Nets are. Simmons? Yes please.
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I_GET_SAX


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Price is the top option for me as well. He has been dominant for good teams vs good teams. When he was with Tampa, Detroit or short stint with Toronto he was a strong pitcher. He has feat K numbers. His age and money demands are no issue for me.

Grienke has anxiety problems so I can only imagine how nuts the media would be for him. Plus he isn't all that dominant for me. Too small a sample when playing great comp.

Cueto is erratic, chubby and looked worse when he hit the American League. No thanks on him. I wouldn't mind Chris Sale or Somny Gray but realize these would be guys we need to trade big pieces for.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want nothing to do with Cueto after what he showed in the American League last year. Small sample, granted, but giving a 30 year old guy with an arm injury in his recent past and AL struggles a mega contract is a recipe for disaster.
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Starless


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm gun-shy after the Bailey and Hanrahan deals went tits-up, but closers are guys you either develop or sign on the cheap.
There's such a high burnout rate among them that any kind of large investment comes with serious risks (at least more serious than giving a big deal to a starter).
I'm fine with moving top prospects for pitching help, but it would have to be for a starter.
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PoWww


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brooklyn now 1-9...


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Troy Brown


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PoWww wrote:
Brooklyn now 1-9...




Simmons had 22-9 against Kennesaw state but they were a pretty 22.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ortiz retiring after this year
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I_GET_SAX


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Ortiz retiring after this year


Not surprised as this will be his age 40 season. A lot of fans, not here, will see Ortiz as a great player but one who constantly whined about the money he got. He has been almost a lock for 30hr and 100 RBI during his tenure here and absolutely clutch. I don't think we have one of the 3 rings we have without him. We've had head cases in Boston. We've had underperformers too. He is neither. People have been writing him off due to age for several seasons now, probably the last 5-6, but he's been very consistent for the Sox in his career. Don't think he's a HOFer but that's due to the PEDs leak and DH position.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I_GET_SAX wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Ortiz retiring after this year


Not surprised as this will be his age 40 season. A lot of fans, not here, will see Ortiz as a great player but one who constantly whined about the money he got. He has been almost a lock for 30hr and 100 RBI during his tenure here and absolutely clutch. I don't think we have one of the 3 rings we have without him. We've had head cases in Boston. We've had underperformers too. He is neither. People have been writing him off due to age for several seasons now, probably the last 5-6, but he's been very consistent for the Sox in his career. Don't think he's a HOFer but that's due to the PEDs leak and DH position.


Might take awhile but I think he gets into the HOF. Especially if he has a good year and retires with around 530 HR.

500 HR and his post season heroics will count for a lot.
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