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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 19354
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
The saltiness is funny. Redskins lost cap space because they tried to cheat for extra cap space. The NFL doesn't just take away cap space for random violations. You guys would probably have a better roster, especially defensively, had you not cheated. Oh well, looks like Danny had to learn the hard way.
We absolutely did not cheat. We were asked to collude with the rest of the NFL in a capless year and we didn't. The rest of the NFL broke the law and we chose not too.

And very conveniently you gained a competitive advantage in the process.
So you're admitting the NFL including the Giants colluded against the players?

Please explain the rule that the Redskins broke. You can't, because there was no CBA to violate.

Yes, they likely colluded. From a law perspective, what they did likely was not legal. But as a fan, I don't care about that perspective. As a fan all I care is that the Redskins and Cowboys gained a competitive advantage, and the "punishment" was simply reversing that advantage.

And Jerrah and Danny knew exactly what they were doing. They thought that if the league punished them for it they'd admit to colluding. Godell and Mara basically said, 'Yeah, watch us'. Redskins played chicken with the league, and they lost. And balance was restored in the NFL.
That's nonsense. It was a witch hunt by Mara to punish his NFC east rivals. The Giants gained the competitive advantage by levying a punishment on its rivals that they didn't deserve. Neither the Redskins or Cowboys violated any rules, hence they shouldn't have been punished.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
The saltiness is funny. Redskins lost cap space because they tried to cheat for extra cap space. The NFL doesn't just take away cap space for random violations. You guys would probably have a better roster, especially defensively, had you not cheated. Oh well, looks like Danny had to learn the hard way.
We absolutely did not cheat. We were asked to collude with the rest of the NFL in a capless year and we didn't. The rest of the NFL broke the law and we chose not too.

And very conveniently you gained a competitive advantage in the process.
So you're admitting the NFL including the Giants colluded against the players?

Please explain the rule that the Redskins broke. You can't, because there was no CBA to violate.

Yes, they likely colluded. From a law perspective, what they did likely was not legal. But as a fan, I don't care about that perspective. As a fan all I care is that the Redskins and Cowboys gained a competitive advantage, and the "punishment" was simply reversing that advantage.

And Jerrah and Danny knew exactly what they were doing. They thought that if the league punished them for it they'd admit to colluding. Godell and Mara basically said, 'Yeah, watch us'. Redskins played chicken with the league, and they lost. And balance was restored in the NFL.
That's nonsense. It was a witch hunt by Mara to punish his NFC east rivals. The Giants gained the competitive advantage by levying a punishment on its rivals that they didn't deserve. Neither the Redskins or Cowboys violated any rules, hence they shouldn't have been punished.

No. If that was the case, 29 other owners in the league wouldn't have just stood by idly and watched. But you keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
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scar988 wrote:
I'm of the belief the best QB in NY right now (July 2017) is Geno Smith.

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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 19354
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
The saltiness is funny. Redskins lost cap space because they tried to cheat for extra cap space. The NFL doesn't just take away cap space for random violations. You guys would probably have a better roster, especially defensively, had you not cheated. Oh well, looks like Danny had to learn the hard way.
We absolutely did not cheat. We were asked to collude with the rest of the NFL in a capless year and we didn't. The rest of the NFL broke the law and we chose not too.

And very conveniently you gained a competitive advantage in the process.
So you're admitting the NFL including the Giants colluded against the players?

Please explain the rule that the Redskins broke. You can't, because there was no CBA to violate.

Yes, they likely colluded. From a law perspective, what they did likely was not legal. But as a fan, I don't care about that perspective. As a fan all I care is that the Redskins and Cowboys gained a competitive advantage, and the "punishment" was simply reversing that advantage.

And Jerrah and Danny knew exactly what they were doing. They thought that if the league punished them for it they'd admit to colluding. Godell and Mara basically said, 'Yeah, watch us'. Redskins played chicken with the league, and they lost. And balance was restored in the NFL.
That's nonsense. It was a witch hunt by Mara to punish his NFC east rivals. The Giants gained the competitive advantage by levying a punishment on its rivals that they didn't deserve. Neither the Redskins or Cowboys violated any rules, hence they shouldn't have been punished.

No. If that was the case, 29 other owners in the league wouldn't have just stood by idly and watched. But you keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
You keep defending shady billionaires that violated the law if it makes your feel better.

I'm sorry I'm usually pretty cordial with fans of other teams, but this is one topic that irks me more than anything.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
The saltiness is funny. Redskins lost cap space because they tried to cheat for extra cap space. The NFL doesn't just take away cap space for random violations. You guys would probably have a better roster, especially defensively, had you not cheated. Oh well, looks like Danny had to learn the hard way.
We absolutely did not cheat. We were asked to collude with the rest of the NFL in a capless year and we didn't. The rest of the NFL broke the law and we chose not too.

And very conveniently you gained a competitive advantage in the process.
So you're admitting the NFL including the Giants colluded against the players?

Please explain the rule that the Redskins broke. You can't, because there was no CBA to violate.

Yes, they likely colluded. From a law perspective, what they did likely was not legal. But as a fan, I don't care about that perspective. As a fan all I care is that the Redskins and Cowboys gained a competitive advantage, and the "punishment" was simply reversing that advantage.

And Jerrah and Danny knew exactly what they were doing. They thought that if the league punished them for it they'd admit to colluding. Godell and Mara basically said, 'Yeah, watch us'. Redskins played chicken with the league, and they lost. And balance was restored in the NFL.
That's nonsense. It was a witch hunt by Mara to punish his NFC east rivals. The Giants gained the competitive advantage by levying a punishment on its rivals that they didn't deserve. Neither the Redskins or Cowboys violated any rules, hence they shouldn't have been punished.

No. If that was the case, 29 other owners in the league wouldn't have just stood by idly and watched. But you keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
You keep defending shady billionaires that violated the law if it makes your feel better.

I'm sorry I'm usually pretty cordial with fans of other teams, but this is one topic that irks me more than anything.

Yeah, I will. I don't care about that part.

You're being quite civil actually.
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scar988 wrote:
I'm of the belief the best QB in NY right now (July 2017) is Geno Smith.

SMH
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
The saltiness is funny. Redskins lost cap space because they tried to cheat for extra cap space. The NFL doesn't just take away cap space for random violations. You guys would probably have a better roster, especially defensively, had you not cheated. Oh well, looks like Danny had to learn the hard way.
We absolutely did not cheat. We were asked to collude with the rest of the NFL in a capless year and we didn't. The rest of the NFL broke the law and we chose not too.

And very conveniently you gained a competitive advantage in the process.
So you're admitting the NFL including the Giants colluded against the players?

Please explain the rule that the Redskins broke. You can't, because there was no CBA to violate.

Yes, they likely colluded. From a law perspective, what they did likely was not legal. But as a fan, I don't care about that perspective. As a fan all I care is that the Redskins and Cowboys gained a competitive advantage, and the "punishment" was simply reversing that advantage.

And Jerrah and Danny knew exactly what they were doing. They thought that if the league punished them for it they'd admit to colluding. Godell and Mara basically said, 'Yeah, watch us'. Redskins played chicken with the league, and they lost. And balance was restored in the NFL.
That's nonsense. It was a witch hunt by Mara to punish his NFC east rivals. The Giants gained the competitive advantage by levying a punishment on its rivals that they didn't deserve. Neither the Redskins or Cowboys violated any rules, hence they shouldn't have been punished.

No. If that was the case, 29 other owners in the league wouldn't have just stood by idly and watched. But you keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.


Actually, 28 owners. 4 teams were punished. The 28 teams that voted to punish the Redskins and Cowboys with huge cap space penalties did so because they lacked the cash or the will to spend the cash to do what the Redskins did in the uncapped year. The "competitive advantage" didn't come from what the Redskins and Cowboys did. But from what those other teams DIDN'T do.

Additionally, those 28 teams ALSO got an increase in cap space (you didn't think that cap space disappeared did you? The other 28 teams got an increase for two years). So yeah, those other teams had a vested interest in voting to punish us.

What the Redskins did was nothing different than other teams had done during capped years. The same contract vehicle had been used previously by other teams.


The Redskins and Cowboys were actually smart to use it in the uncapped year.

The year was uncapped as a sop to the NFLPA in the previous CBA negotiations. It was meant to get the owners to the table and get an agreement otherwise the threat of an uncapped year and owners like Jerruh and Snyder spending cash willy nilly on players. The owners agreed to an uncapped year in exchange for other considerations in the previous CBA.

So...

We're left with the uncapped year...

...between the CBA's...

...that was the intended result...

...of the previous CBA...

...if the two sides could not come to a new labor agreement.

So in actuality, the Redskins and Cowboys were doing EXACTLY what the uncapped year was for. Spending money on players.

The fact that the NFL could not punish them without the agreement from the NFLPA is very telling here. And to do that, the NFL got them to agree to a modification of the CBA which then allowed the salary cap to raise up slightly (instead of staying flat) for that year. And since Dee Smith was in hot water with the players for the flat cap that year, it was easy to get the NFLPA to agree (****).

Because, guess what happened a year or two later?

The NFLPA took the NFL to court. And the only reason it was thrown out of court was that the NFLPA had agreed to drop all collusion claims in the modified CBA that they signed...

...to essentially punish Mara's NFC East rivals...

...and distribute their cap punishment to other teams...

...and give the NFLPA a "Win" by upping the salary cap.

The only "competitive advantage" here was Mara pushing for this on his division rivals and the other teams getting our cap space.




****The above is also why I hope the owners completely roll the NFLPA in every CBA negotiation going forward.

The Redskins and Cowboys were actually doing what the NFLPA had wanted teams to do when they pushed for (and got the owners to agree to), an uncapped year with no cap rules.

And then the NFLPA stabbed us in the back for a small short term gain.

And then still tried to double deal a year or so later.

So screw 'em. I hope the owners roll the players every time they do a CBA.
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As long as Dan Snyder owns the team, the Redskins will not win another Super Bowl


Last edited by Thaiphoon on Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:32 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But here we have evidence that the Giants broke a rule that gave them an actual competitive advantage and...

...nothing.

What? A small fine? Big deal

Moving your 4th round draft pick back to the end of the round? Gee...a whole 8-10 spots on a Day 3 pick?? Big deal

Should've lost a Day 1 or 2 pick and lost cap space.

Instead, since Mara owns the league (apparently), you guys get away with ACTUAL cheating.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

32 teams were warned not to take advantage of the uncapped year. Several teams acted like they didn't get the memo and there were reprocussions. No need for a filibuster post. It's as simple as that.

As for the Giants recent infraction - what competitive advantage are you speaking of? Are walkie talkies a superior form of communication with the quarterback compared to the headset? Clearer sound quality? Get real Laughing
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scar988 wrote:
I'm of the belief the best QB in NY right now (July 2017) is Geno Smith.

SMH
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Gmen


Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 17498
Location: Myyyyy precioussss
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

32 teams were warned not to take advantage of the uncapped year. Several teams acted like they didn't get the memo and there were reprocussions. No need for a filibuster post. It's as simple as that.

As for the Giants recent infraction - what competitive advantage are you speaking of? Are walkie talkies a superior form of communication with the quarterback compared to the headset? Clearer sound quality? Get real Laughing
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scar988 wrote:
I'm of the belief the best QB in NY right now (July 2017) is Geno Smith.

SMH
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 19354
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
32 teams were warned not to take advantage of the uncapped year. Several teams acted like they didn't get the memo and there were reprocussions. No need for a filibuster post. It's as simple as that.

As for the Giants recent infraction - what competitive advantage are you speaking of? Are walkie talkies a superior form of communication with the quarterback compared to the headset? Clearer sound quality? Get real Laughing
You can't communicate with your QB when there's only 15 seconds left on the play clock. The giants didn't have to abide by that rule because they were cheating. There absolutely was a competitive advantage.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
32 teams were warned not to take advantage of the uncapped year. Several teams acted like they didn't get the memo and there were reprocussions. No need for a filibuster post. It's as simple as that.

As for the Giants recent infraction - what competitive advantage are you speaking of? Are walkie talkies a superior form of communication with the quarterback compared to the headset? Clearer sound quality? Get real Laughing
You can't communicate with your QB when there's only 15 seconds left on the play clock. The giants didn't have to abide by that rule because they were cheating. There absolutely was a competitive advantage.

Is there evidence of this actually happening? The Giants were put at a disadvantage because of an equipment malfunction. They replaced it with a different form of communication to no longer be at a disadvantage. I highly doubt they were like - hey, I guess we can go ahead and break the 15 second rule now. But if someone can prove this happened, I will concede that the Giants had a minuscule competitive advantage for a few drives that did not result in point iirc.
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scar988 wrote:
I'm of the belief the best QB in NY right now (July 2017) is Geno Smith.

SMH
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correction - walkie talkies were used for 5 plays and the drive ended in an interception. Apparently that violation warrants 200k in fines and loss of draft position. But yea, keep telling yourselves that Mara is in Godells ear to gain an advantage for the Giants and bully the Redskins and Cowboys. You guys didn't even lose draft picks for trying to cheat the salary cap.
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scar988 wrote:
I'm of the belief the best QB in NY right now (July 2017) is Geno Smith.

SMH
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
32 teams were warned not to take advantage of the uncapped year.


That's what uncapped years are for. To take advantage that:

there.is.no.cap

Gmen wrote:
Several teams acted like they didn't get the memo and there were reprocussions.No need for a filibuster post. It's as simple as that.


Ahh, so several teams decided not to engage in illegal activity?

You're right..."its as simple as that"

Gmen wrote:
As for the Giants recent infraction - what competitive advantage are you speaking of? Are walkie talkies a superior form of communication with the quarterback compared to the headset? Clearer sound quality? Get real Laughing


The standard communication with the QB shuts off before the playclock reaches 15 seconds. The Giants were using walkie talkies. Which circumvents the standard communication channel and IIRC, it has no shut off. So literally the coaches could have been talking to Eli right up before the snap in calling out coverages, reads, based upon defenses presented and defensive shifts.

That's a pretty big competitive advantage. And something that was actually cheating. Unlike what the Redskins and Cowboys did (which violated no rule that anyone can point to).
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
MKnight82 wrote:
Gmen wrote:
32 teams were warned not to take advantage of the uncapped year. Several teams acted like they didn't get the memo and there were reprocussions. No need for a filibuster post. It's as simple as that.

As for the Giants recent infraction - what competitive advantage are you speaking of? Are walkie talkies a superior form of communication with the quarterback compared to the headset? Clearer sound quality? Get real Laughing
You can't communicate with your QB when there's only 15 seconds left on the play clock. The giants didn't have to abide by that rule because they were cheating. There absolutely was a competitive advantage.

Is there evidence of this actually happening? The Giants were put at a disadvantage because of an equipment malfunction. They replaced it with a different form of communication to no longer be at a disadvantage. I highly doubt they were like - hey, I guess we can go ahead and break the 15 second rule now. But if someone can prove this happened, I will concede that the Giants had a minuscule competitive advantage for a few drives that did not result in point iirc.


When that happens the communication is turned off for both teams. In this case, the Giants used it with the intention to gain advantage.
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As long as Dan Snyder owns the team, the Redskins will not win another Super Bowl


Last edited by Thaiphoon on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
Correction - walkie talkies were used for 5 plays and the drive ended in an interception.


So your position is that if I use performance enhancing drugs to gain a competitive advantage and fail, that I shouldn't be punished for cheating?

Good to know. Rolling Eyes

Gmen wrote:
Apparently that violation warrants 200k in fines and loss of draft position.


No. It warrants more than what the Pats got for a nonexistent crime. 200k in fines? That's less than a whisper of a slap o the wrist.

Move down 8-10 spots in the 4th but still get to keep the pick? Big deal

Gmen wrote:
But yea, keep telling yourselves that Mara is in Godells ear to gain an advantage for the Giants and bully the Redskins and Cowboys. You guys didn't even lose draft picks for trying to cheat the salary cap.


I'm not sure you understand the fact that the 2010 year had no cap. Laughing

I can draw you a flow chart if you'd like. Or you could read my words in bold right above this a few more times.

you keep saying it like there was one. There wasn't. The Redskins and Cowboys cheated no one. They proceeded through 2010 as it was intended. As an uncapped year. The fact that your team and 26 others decided to screw the players over an illegally collude is the bigger issue. But yeah, keep saying my team violated a salary cap in an uncapped year Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW guys, lets get back to current day events rather than talking about how Mara and 25 other owners took cap space from us for 2 years for not going along with their scheme to screw over the players.

Let's get back to talking about this year. We had crapped the bed lately and the Jints have an outside chance at the division.
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