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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
Posts: 2760
Location: Western US
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich7sena wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
Are you serious? Jefferson and Peppers can absolutely play man coverage.

Think of Peppers in the role that we had M. Smith in last yr in some sets with Jefferson and Joseph behind him in either safety role. Peppers would be much better Really it's what the Cards have been running with Bucannon, Jefferson and Mathieu.

I'm not sold on this because I'd have to see it vs a strong running game but something I'm kicking around.

You proposed Peppers playing an an interchangeable safety role with Karl Joseph in a 3 safety look including Tony Jefferson, correct?

The logic behind this look is the defense can remain in a base front without compromising the back end. Peppers and/or Joseph would either have to play man against a slot receiver, or drop into hook zone coverage from that same slot look. From what I've watched and later verified by PFF, Jefferson is primarily a zone coverage guy with plus run defense awareness. Peppers rarely ran man coverage against receivers. I'm not saying he can't do it, but he probably can't his first year.

If instead you're proposing a Patriots style "3 safety" look (it's not, Chung has fully converted to OLB) or him playing a Deone Bucannon role, then that's different. I don't think Peppers would cut it as an every down WLB, at least early in his career. To me, he's a plus athlete compared to Cravens with worse football instincts. I think he starts his career the same way; playing nickel linebacker and giving SS a try the following year.


Yeah I said like the cards if you were paying attention. So yes, Peppers would be in the Bucannon role. Not saying they would be prefect right away week one. Just think it's a set that would fit our front. I think your latter point about Pepper's struggling being a full time WLB is valid because I was making it when Peppers was first brought up in the draft thread. I still think we'd add a WLB capable of playing 500+ snaps. But I do think he gets better with time and that will be his primary role if developed and used correctly long term in the NFL. I just was rolling the idea of the versatility those 3 guys would give us..
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Rich7sena


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Posts: 6681
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
Yeah I said like the cards if you were paying attention. So yes, Peppers would be in the Bucannon role. Not saying they would be prefect right away week one. Just think it's a set that would fit our front. I think your latter point about Pepper's struggling being a full time WLB is valid because I was making it when Peppers was first brought up in the draft thread. I still think we'd add a WLB capable of playing 500+ snaps. But I do think he gets better with time and that will be his primary role if developed and used correctly long term in the NFL. I just was rolling the idea of the versatility those 3 guys would give us..

Bucannon isn't a safety, he's a linebacker.

The Cardinals' 3 safety look includes: Swearinger, Jefferson, and Mathieu.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich7sena wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
Yeah I said like the cards if you were paying attention. So yes, Peppers would be in the Bucannon role. Not saying they would be prefect right away week one. Just think it's a set that would fit our front. I think your latter point about Pepper's struggling being a full time WLB is valid because I was making it when Peppers was first brought up in the draft thread. I still think we'd add a WLB capable of playing 500+ snaps. But I do think he gets better with time and that will be his primary role if developed and used correctly long term in the NFL. I just was rolling the idea of the versatility those 3 guys would give us..

Bucannon isn't a safety, he's a linebacker.

The Cardinals' 3 safety look includes: Swearinger, Jefferson, and Mathieu.


Yup he is a LB that measures 6'1 210. Not a stretch at all to think Peppers could play that role.

The cards base defense is

DL - Campbell Peters Rucker
LB - Jones Moore Bucannon Golden
S - Mathieu Jefferson
C - Peterson Cooper

I was clearly including Bucannon as the 3rd S because traditionally that is what he would be called. A safety playing in the box as a ILB.

You can take issue with whether you think Pepper can play the role but don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about.
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Rich7sena


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
I was clearly including Bucannon as the 3rd S because traditionally that is what he would be called. A safety playing in the box as a ILB.

But that's not what people (at least people that know what they're talking about) mean when they talk about a 3 safety look. Bucannon for all intents and purposes is a linebacker. If he wore the number 50 instead of 20 it'd be much more common knowledge.

Below is what a true 3 safety look looks like:

Here's the Cardinals facing what is effectively the Saints' (and most NFL teams') base offense: 3 receivers, a back, and in this case sub a tight end for an extra back - or, 11 personnel.

The Cardinals basically roll out 3 safeties instead of 3 corners. In the above image, you have Swearinger as the first player inside of the right corner, Jefferson playing deep middle (Swearinger and Jefferson are virtually interchangeable in the Cardinals' offense, but Jefferson is much better against the run), and Mathieu effectively playing the slot corner inside of Peterson. If instead the team were to roll out in 12 personnel or in a traditional eye or offset eye, Swearinger would be the odd man out and you'd have a more traditional looking base 3-4.

This is what a 3 safety look looks like. Patrick Chung and Deone Bucannon (and Mark Barron) are not safeties.

Going back to Peppers, I do not think he's equipped to play early downs as a WLB, as you propose. I believe he can be a nickel linebacker because of his overall athleticism and prowess as a blitzer, but I do not think he has the strength to hold up against NFL offensive lineman at outside linebacker during his first year.

Ultimately, I view Peppers as maybe a future WLB and maybe a future box safety (Cam Chancellor, Tony Jefferson, etc.) in the NFL. At the end of the day, given his uncertain projection, I don't view Peppers as a first round pick and wouldn't want Oakland to select him in the first round.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

double post
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~IMO Reggie has a plan for how much he can spend. The 2-4 FA who sign may surprise us but they will make sense once we draft.


Last edited by NightTrainLane on Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich7sena wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:
I was clearly including Bucannon as the 3rd S because traditionally that is what he would be called. A safety playing in the box as a ILB.

But that's not what people (at least people that know what they're talking about) mean when they talk about a 3 safety look. Bucannon for all intents and purposes is a linebacker. If he wore the number 50 instead of 20 it'd be much more common knowledge.

Below is what a true 3 safety look looks like:

Here's the Cardinals facing what is effectively the Saints' (and most NFL teams') base offense: 3 receivers, a back, and in this case sub a tight end for an extra back - or, 11 personnel.

The Cardinals basically roll out 3 safeties instead of 3 corners. In the above image, you have Swearinger as the first player inside of the right corner, Jefferson playing deep middle (Swearinger and Jefferson are virtually interchangeable in the Cardinals' offense, but Jefferson is much better against the run), and Mathieu effectively playing the slot corner inside of Peterson. If instead the team were to roll out in 12 personnel or in a traditional eye or offset eye, Swearinger would be the odd man out and you'd have a more traditional looking base 3-4.

This is what a 3 safety look looks like. Patrick Chung and Deone Bucannon (and Mark Barron) are not safeties.

Going back to Peppers, I do not think he's equipped to play early downs as a WLB, as you propose. I believe he can be a nickel linebacker because of his overall athleticism and prowess as a blitzer, but I do not think he has the strength to hold up against NFL offensive lineman at outside linebacker during his first year.

Ultimately, I view Peppers as maybe a future WLB and maybe a future box safety (Cam Chancellor, Tony Jefferson, etc.) in the NFL. At the end of the day, given his uncertain projection, I don't view Peppers as a first round pick and wouldn't want Oakland to select him in the first round.


Great pic and explanation but this whole thing is over whether Pepper could be and Bucannon in the Cards base defense is called a safety. Pointless!

It doesn't matter.

I was simply suggesting a possible set we could use. Wasn't meaning to spark a discussion of position names. Whether we call him a safety or a LB is pointless. They are safeties playing the LB position. A lot of work for nothing Cool

Oh and what you showed was the Cards nickel set, not their base, which is what I was talking about. Because more teams use 11 sets than they use too I understand why you went there but it's still not their base defense.

Once again I know you know what I was talking about but wanted to "prove me wrong" on a point that turns out to be meaningless to the discussion.

I respect your assessment of Pepper as a guy that may not be able to play as a WLB in early downs. I also bet there were plenty of OCs that laughed when Bucannon and Chung were put in those positions until they excelled in them.

Whether that is what someone drafts Peppers to do is up in the air but it wouldn't surprise me if he has a similar first few years as a guy like Shaq Thompson. Alot of similar things in these guys story except they are tweeners on opposite sides of the spectrum of S/LB. I think he will play 300-400 snaps in his first year but in his second year he has the potential to be named a starter at some point like Thompson.

Now do I think Pepper is a 1st rounder in our range? I don't know, I wanna see more tape on him plus the coming workouts and combine to get a better feel for him. I read a good little article where Bucky Brooks says this about him,

Quote:
Creative defensive coordinators will find a way to tap into his talents as a Swiss Army knife-like defender, but rigid play callers will focus on his shortcomings as a player and miss out on his potential contributions as a hybrid safety/linebacker.


http://michigan.247sports.com/Bolt/NFL-analyst-says-teams-unsure-where-Jabrill-Peppers-fits-51394777

I think the right team could really unlock this kid and the wrong team can ruin him. I previously noted that when he was first being discussed in here that I thought he should just stick to S but I'm starting to be more and more open to him playing that hybrid role. Whether it is like a Chancellor as a box safety or a Bucannon as a S/WLB I don't know yet. I not even sure if it's the best thing for him. Just a thought.

A last note here is that Peppers has been running low 4.3s in workouts. We all know that doesn't make a good football player but lighting up the combine does move you up the draft board for sure. I can see him going in our range, if not higher, if he puts up crazy #s in the 40, jumps and shuttles.

http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2016/06/27/michigans-jabrill-peppers-turns-in-blazing-40-time/
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~This is the year of "win close". Next year is "win big".
~IMO Reggie has a plan for how much he can spend. The 2-4 FA who sign may surprise us but they will make sense once we draft.
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drfrey13


Joined: 14 Oct 2010
Posts: 1378
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:


A last note here is that Peppers has been running low 4.3s in workouts. We all know that doesn't make a good football player but lighting up the combine does move you up the draft board for sure. I can see him going in our range, if not higher, if he puts up crazy #s in the 40, jumps and shuttles.

http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2016/06/27/michigans-jabrill-peppers-turns-in-blazing-40-time/


That article is from June. I think since he has nothing to do but concentrate on football he should get faster.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drfrey13 wrote:
NightTrainLane wrote:


A last note here is that Peppers has been running low 4.3s in workouts. We all know that doesn't make a good football player but lighting up the combine does move you up the draft board for sure. I can see him going in our range, if not higher, if he puts up crazy #s in the 40, jumps and shuttles.

http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2016/06/27/michigans-jabrill-peppers-turns-in-blazing-40-time/


That article is from June. I think since he has nothing to do but concentrate on football he should get faster.


True dat.

https://twitter.com/JabrillPeppers/status/832496987085737984

https://twitter.com/JabrillPeppers/status/761953951700905984
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~IMO Reggie has a plan for how much he can spend. The 2-4 FA who sign may surprise us but they will make sense once we draft.
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Rolni


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would preffer a true S to pair with Joseph and a true every down WLB.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
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Location: Western US
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolni wrote:
I would preffer a true S to pair with Joseph and a true every down WLB.


When I think about it that is the logical answer too. But it seems the new age good defenses have a hybrid or a wrinkle somewhere. Just letting my mind wander on possibilities.
_________________

~This is the year of "win close". Next year is "win big".
~IMO Reggie has a plan for how much he can spend. The 2-4 FA who sign may surprise us but they will make sense once we draft.


Last edited by NightTrainLane on Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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raidr4life


Joined: 10 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolni wrote:
I would preffer a true S to pair with Joseph and a true every down WLB.
Cunningham and Melifonwu in the first 2 picks would be nice.
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NightTrainLane


Joined: 22 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raidr4life wrote:
Rolni wrote:
I would preffer a true S to pair with Joseph and a true every down WLB.
Cunningham and Melifonwu in the first 2 picks would be nice.


Not a bad haul in terms of our needs.

I remember when I first mentioned Melifonwu like a month ago and he was in the 5th to 6th rd range. Now he is a 2nd to 3rd with some saying if he tears up the combine he could be a 1st. Just crazy how things develop.
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~This is the year of "win close". Next year is "win big".
~IMO Reggie has a plan for how much he can spend. The 2-4 FA who sign may surprise us but they will make sense once we draft.
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drfrey13


Joined: 14 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NightTrainLane wrote:
raidr4life wrote:
Rolni wrote:
I would preffer a true S to pair with Joseph and a true every down WLB.
Cunningham and Melifonwu in the first 2 picks would be nice.


Not a bad haul in terms of our needs.

I remember when I first mentioned Melifonwu like a month ago and he was in the 5th to 6th rd range. Now he is a 2nd to 3rd with some saying if he tears up the combine he could be a 1st. Just crazy how things develop.


Does anybody see a way to shore up our pass coverage from the LBs without drafting a top LB in the first 2 rounds. I do not see it in free agency or in prospects outside of round 2. A hybrid like Peppers could do it but he will go in the first 2 rounds anyways.
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Rich7sena


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drfrey13 wrote:
Does anybody see a way to shore up our pass coverage from the LBs without drafting a top LB in the first 2 rounds. I do not see it in free agency or in prospects outside of round 2. A hybrid like Peppers could do it but he will go in the first 2 rounds anyways.

There are options in the 3rd and later rounds:

Elijah Lee
Anthony Walker Jr.
Rayshawn Jenkins
Jaylon Brown

Probably more I can't think of.
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Dessie


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich7sena wrote:
drfrey13 wrote:
Does anybody see a way to shore up our pass coverage from the LBs without drafting a top LB in the first 2 rounds. I do not see it in free agency or in prospects outside of round 2. A hybrid like Peppers could do it but he will go in the first 2 rounds anyways.

There are options in the 3rd and later rounds:

Elijah Lee
Anthony Walker Jr.
Rayshawn Jenkins
Jaylon Brown

Probably more I can't think of.


Anzalone or will he go earlier?

With Neiron Ball, Heeney and James already on board, if we don't get a LB in FA or early in the draft I'd give them another chance to prove themselves. James in particular flashed some potential. Important we get a vet in though.
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