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Stand Pat and Draft DJ or Make trade W/ saints
Stand Pat and Draft DJ?
42%
 42%  [ 6 ]
Trade W/ Saints Draft--Miller
21%
 21%  [ 3 ]
Trade W/ Saints Draft--Davis
28%
 28%  [ 4 ]
Trade W/ Saints Draft ---Poole
7%
 7%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 14

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nsiemen


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 82
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Junior"]The Lions are dropping down in the 1st and 2nd round for Darren Howard is a bad trade period.[/quote]


No the Lions are moving up in the 2ed rd.
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Laimbrane


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3895
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
I hate that trade. It makes no sense. The way things are shaping up now, our 2nd round pick could be more important than our first. our first rounder is too high to take Baas or Shazor, but those are probably two of the highest players on our board. Moving down in the first two rounds doesn't makes sense, especially to add a DE we don't really need. I have a feeling the way it will go is us just sitting there until our pick, see if we really, really like anyone, and if not, trade down a few slots and do it again. I wouldn't be surprised to see us trade down 2 or 3 times all the way out of the first round. At this point, no one we could take at #10 fills a need worthy of a high pick. Unless Alex Smith falls to us, then I say we draft him and trade Joey for a compensatory pick.


Lol. UofM Homer.

First, our second-round picks are not more important than our first-round picks. Look, I agree that Baas is going to be a good pro, but I wouldn't say he's the highest guard on our board, nor would I say Shazor is the highest safety on our board (not that I know what the Lions rank him at, but I'd put him at 3). Both have upsides, but are not the locks that you aim for in the first round.

Secondly, we do need a DE. Can you imagine a line of Spears, Hall, Rogers, and Wilkinson next year? If you get another guy to rush the passer, it takes some pressure off the defensive backs, who can play a little tighter knowing the deep passes are not coming.

Finally, no way should they pay first round money to a quarterback. Joey hasn't shown anything other than improvement in his first three years, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you're already paying almost 8 million next year, plus another 3-4 with a backup. You don't need to ink a guy like Smith for big bucks, so it would be a waste of a pick. Wait until later rounds to go for a quarterback. Kyle Orton should be available in the third - he's the guy I'd really like to see them pick up as a developmental prospect.
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amaru0


Joined: 24 Dec 2004
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Location: Columbia, Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baas is the top guard in the draft, in my opinion and the opinion of just about every expert out there. Look around a little and see what his competition is. Elton Brown is the only one close, and that's just because they think he could play tackle.

Our defensive line was either first or second in the NFL last year in sacks, so they did generate pressure. How did teams deal with pressure? Throw the ball deep because we didn't have any safeties to provide deep help. The corners can't tighten up with us drafting a DE, only if we get safety help.

And Harrington has shown a lot more than improvement. He's shown an inability to win close games, a lack of accuracy and a lack of heart. He does have flashes of brilliance, but for the most part, he's not getting it done. We can't afford to sit around and give him a few more years to develop because the young nucleus we have now will be moving on if we're not winning.

And just for the record, I am not a very big U of M fan, I just recognize that they have some damn fine football players. Edwards, Jackson, Baas and Shazor will all go in the first 45 picks, if not sooner. As for the 10 pick, you don't draft a player to upgrade a unit from great to amazing when you still have holes to fill. We need a safety, guard, quarterback and wideout more than anything right now. DE should be way down our list of priorities. Besides, why would we give up on Kalimba when he's had less time than Joey to develop, but apparently we're going to wait him out for the rest of the 21st century?
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Dionosys


Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 1166
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ I have to disagree here.

1st off, Harrington is not as bad as you describe him. He's not the best, but he's improved each year. Also lack of consistancy? How about a lack of healthy, sure handed Wideouts that don't make mental mistakes and take plays off? How many times last year did you see Hakim and Streets just flat out drop a nice pass. Same goes for Alexander, poor concentration on their parts. Even Williams to an extent showed moments of poor hands and mental lapse.

Also, Edwards was taken with the 3rd pick in the 2nd round of 2002, same year as Harrington went #3 overall. The problem here is, that Edwards has been a disappointment in the eyes of the organization. Also, why not improve the defensive line through the draft before you have it become a priority, try to stay ahead. Hasn't free agency shown you how expensive D-Linemen are? Edwards has been a model for nagging injuries and inconsistancy. Wilkerson is OLD too don't forget. It's not going from great to exceptional. If he starts to really show signs of slowing down this year, they started last year, then the line really falters. Bringing in a young top notch DE will at least help stave off the pressure on Rogers and Hall to make up for Wilkerson's decline.

Another thing, I don't want Shazor because he's too raw. He might become a great SS in this league, but when we drafted Kalimba, the talk was he could become a great DE in the NFL. He a was raw, big project with upside. It hasn't panned out. Projects are for the 6th and 7th rounds and UDFA imo.

Draft a Safety, that's fine, but get one who's ready and decent now and not a project. Personally, I would go after Baas in the 2nd round to just fill in the O-Line. Can't use a 1st day pick on another WR or we'll run into the problems of getting everyone the ball enough.

1st Barron, Spears, or trade down
2nd Baas
3rd Alex Smith TE
4th Mike Patterson DT
6th Best OLB available or Marrion Barber III or Shelton RB from Louisville
7th Best player left with speed. A possible ILB who has some upside. Maybe even that QB out of cincinatti.
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nsiemen


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 82
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to see M. Patterson in the 4th Rd but I do not think that he will be there. I don't think that he will be there with our 3 rd pick for that matter.
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amaru0


Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 2612
Location: Columbia, Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harrington has been healthy. Kalimba has not. Therefore, Joey has had more time to develop than Edwards. Yet everyone wants to toss Edwards and keep Harrington. Harrington has been far from productive through 3 years. We lost 6 games last year by 7 points or less, in those games he had a rating of 65.7. Thats not a good quarterback. And yes, we dropped passes last year. a lot of them. But not nearly as many good passes were dropped as bad passes never had a chance. You can't blame throwing the ball at a guys feet or 5 feet over his head on injuries and lack of concentration by receivers.

I could see drafting a DT as Wilkinsons replacement, but DE is not a need. Kalimba needs another year to show his stuff while not slowed by injury.
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Dionosys


Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 1166
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't a matter IMO of amount of time to develop or lack of it due to injury. Harrington too has missed time due to injury or illness in his rookie season. Not only that but he didn't start the season as the starter on that team either.

I'm not saying the guy is a great qb, but he has improved since year one. To tell you the truth, the guy just needs to go out some weekend, get into a bar room brawl and build an additude. He's too uptight and serious all the time. He gets paid to play a professional game, he should try to enjoy it more, be a little cocky, and things will be easier. If you could mesh McMahon's Additude and Joeys talents, then you'd have an awesome QB.

That's off my point, but I think he has had a ton of pressure put on him. And he's been a scapegoat on this team for lack of many different things. Yes, he's the QB, he's supposed to lead, but it's impossible to do so when you're never given the chance to let people follow.

Also on the patterson in the 3rd or 4th, i think it's possible. He's on the small side only 6'0" and most teams are looking for guys 4-5 inches taller for their DT to block the qb's view of the field. He may be there.
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GoLions17


Joined: 29 Jan 2005
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Location: Chi-Town
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think this year is the year of the lion...joey will finally fix what hes been doing and kalimba will stay healthy and help our already productive d line
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Laimbrane


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3895
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
Baas is the top guard in the draft, in my opinion and the opinion of just about every expert out there. Look around a little and see what his competition is. Elton Brown is the only one close, and that's just because they think he could play tackle.

Our defensive line was either first or second in the NFL last year in sacks, so they did generate pressure. How did teams deal with pressure? Throw the ball deep because we didn't have any safeties to provide deep help. The corners can't tighten up with us drafting a DE, only if we get safety help.

And Harrington has shown a lot more than improvement. He's shown an inability to win close games, a lack of accuracy and a lack of heart. He does have flashes of brilliance, but for the most part, he's not getting it done. We can't afford to sit around and give him a few more years to develop because the young nucleus we have now will be moving on if we're not winning.

And just for the record, I am not a very big U of M fan, I just recognize that they have some damn fine football players. Edwards, Jackson, Baas and Shazor will all go in the first 45 picks, if not sooner. As for the 10 pick, you don't draft a player to upgrade a unit from great to amazing when you still have holes to fill. We need a safety, guard, quarterback and wideout more than anything right now. DE should be way down our list of priorities. Besides, why would we give up on Kalimba when he's had less time than Joey to develop, but apparently we're going to wait him out for the rest of the 21st century?


As far as whether Brown or Baas is the best guard, the sites I've been to are about 50/50. Brown will likely go ahead of Baas in the draft, because a lot of teams will have Baas listed as a center.

Secondly, as far as team sacks go, Detroit was tied for 14th, not first or second (http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-PASSING/2004/regular?sort_col_1=11&_1:col_1=11).

Thirdly, if you get consistent pressure, the quarterback CAN'T throw deep... he doesn't have time to set up. If the most he's going to get is two or three seconds before the pocket is on him, he'll be dumping the ball off a lot and safety help won't be needed.

Fourth, corners generally only tighten up if they have safety help, that's true, but if they know that the pressure is going to come and the QB will have to get the ball off quickly, it makes it easier to jam the WR and force the QB to make quick throws.

Lastly, the Lions don't have any great units. They shouldn't draft a QB or WR at 10 because of the concern of "overdrafting" - if they have too much money tied up in those units, they don't want to pump resources (i.e. draft picks) into those positions. They can get a starting safety or guard in the second or later rounds, so that leaves the Lions in the position of being able to take BPA in the first round, since it won't adequately satisfy any of their main (QB #2, WR #3, OG, S) needs.
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amaru0


Joined: 24 Dec 2004
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Location: Columbia, Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Defensive LINE was first or second in sacks. That's front four, not the whole unit. We don't blitz as much as most, so our total numbers won't be as high.
And a quarterback does not need much time to throw the ball deep if he knows the safety can't get there. These WR's will be 30 yards downfield in a matter of 4 seconds, and the ball is in the air for 2 of those. Take a snap, couple dropsteps, launch it down the sideline. Big plays kill us.
Unfortunately, I agree that we don't take a QB or WR in round one. I would not mind at all seeing us do something with Harrington (trade, restructure, release) and securing a QB there, though. I really think we need to trade down a few spots, see if we can get Davis lower, and maybe try to get Charlie Frye in the second if he's there. If we can find a way to get an extra 2nd rounder and Frye lasts, I would love to see us come out of Day one with Davis, Baas and Frye. But I do realize that I'm dreaming and the team wouldn't do anything that gutsy. With Harringtons fragile psyche, they don't want to hurt his feelings.
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Laimbrane


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3895
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
Defensive LINE was first or second in sacks. That's front four, not the whole unit. We don't blitz as much as most, so our total numbers won't be as high.
And a quarterback does not need much time to throw the ball deep if he knows the safety can't get there. These WR's will be 30 yards downfield in a matter of 4 seconds, and the ball is in the air for 2 of those. Take a snap, couple dropsteps, launch it down the sideline. Big plays kill us.
.


I saw that DL speficity, but the Lions still aren't the best in the league.

I looked them up, and here's what I discovered - the Lions' DL was tied for 7th in the NFL in sacks. [Indianapolis (41), Atlanta (35.5 (+ 1?)), New Orleans (34), Minnesota (33.5), Tampa Bay (32.5 (+ 1?)), and Philadelphia (32) all had more D-Line sacks, and the NY Jets (30.5) were tied with the Lions.]

Now this certainly isn't bad, and better than I initially anticipated, but it's not tops in the league like you imply. And let's take this one step further - Shaun Rogers was the fulcrum of that line, and even though he only had 4 sacks, he created mismatches and was so dominant at times that the game plans of other teams caused other players to play better around him. Hall was a sackmaster on the right side of the line (11.5), but the other DEs, who weren't as good as either of those two, split 10.5 sacks. Now imagine getting a player in the draft that can be an every-down DE that will provide matchup headaches on the other side of the line.

There's an old war tactic called the hammer-and-anvil technique. Basically, you get Regiment A on one side of your enemy and advance Regiment B toward Regiment A, with the enemy in between, in a sense "hammering" the enemy into the anvil. Right now, this is what we're seeing with Rogers and Hall, who are hammering into Edwards, Redding, and DeVries... but get a great DE and you're hammering from both sides, thus decreasing the amount of time a QB has to read and react, throw the ball short, and yes, throw the ball deep.

Which brings me to my second point, that the QB needs time to throw deep. I understand your argument about the chuck-and-pray method being more neutralized by safeties, and you're partially right - I did understate the necessity of the safety, and the big play is less affected by pass rush than the check-down plays where the coverage downfield is good enough to prevent the quarterback from throwing. However, that doesn't negate the fact that pass rush is vital, and that too often last year the Lions didn't get ANY pass rush. Which leads me to my final point.

The Lions weren't done in by big plays as much as they were done in by the throws underneath and those accursed 3rd-down 8-yard plays. Those are the types of plays that the D-Line prevents, the downs where the quarterback has to check-down two or three times, where having time to decide before you throw is vital, where everyone knows the other team is throwing the balll. The D-Line didn't get the necessary pressure on those, and that's where having a dominant DE opposite Hall would be glorious.
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amaru0


Joined: 24 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol, war tactics are not something I need a lecture on. I do see your point, and this is just going to be a case where we have to agree to disagree. I just don't see DE being that big of a need, although it certainly would help. I think there are a lot of quality ends in this draft, and we could take some of the harder to come by positions first.
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Harrington is da man


Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 7666
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to put more possibility's on their I dont like any of those possibilty's at all I see us drafting an O-lineman or D-lineman if we sign KK which I see hapening because I thought It already did happen.
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Laimbrane


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
lol, war tactics are not something I need a lecture on. I do see your point, and this is just going to be a case where we have to agree to disagree. I just don't see DE being that big of a need, although it certainly would help. I think there are a lot of quality ends in this draft, and we could take some of the harder to come by positions first.



Yeah, we'll probably have to agree to disagree, though you do make a good point about there being a bunch of quality ends. BTW, sorry if I came off as lecturing... that was meant as much for anyone else reading it that didn't know.
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amaru0


Joined: 24 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

not a problem, but I spent the last year in Baghdad and saw plenty of TTPs (tactics, techniques and procedures), so I kinda get touchy about that sometimes.
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