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Week 1 GDT Browns at Steelers! Let the games begin
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If you could have dinner with one person living or dead who would you choose?
A living person
15%
 15%  [ 4 ]
A dead person
38%
 38%  [ 10 ]
Hornby
23%
 23%  [ 6 ]
horny
11%
 11%  [ 3 ]
EZ Luv
11%
 11%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 26

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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5813
Location: WV
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
I think you are (avoided the whole your/you're issue) giving Hoyer too much credit bulldog. I think some of us aren't giving Hoyer enough credit. He is probably a slightly below average starting QB. Not what we want, but I don't think he will be terrible.

Manziel clearly has more upside and can make plays (running or passing) with his feet. He missed an open guy and took off anmd created another open guy. No issue there. If Hoyer misses an open guy he will probably get sacked or throw it away. Even great QB's sometimes miss the open guy, Rothlisberger has done it plenty over his career but he keeps the play alive and another option presents itself.


I can agree with this. I do support Hoyer, but even I can admit he's been underwhelming this preaseason.

My biggest deal is really that Johnny has been far more underwhelming as far as his quarterbacking skills go, but so many on this board have ignored it due to a few (see few) exciting plays.

It was a QB battle and the decision has been a group effort to decide who was the best right now. The collective agreement of the coaching staff is that Hoyer is better. Although BooyaCS will think it's purely Pettine's decision. A lot of people who do this for a living think differently than most on here.


It wasn't purely Pettine's decision but it was ultimately Pettine's decision.

Make sense?
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bulldog


Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
I think you are (avoided the whole your/you're issue) giving Hoyer too much credit bulldog. I think some of us aren't giving Hoyer enough credit. He is probably a slightly below average starting QB. Not what we want, but I don't think he will be terrible.

Manziel clearly has more upside and can make plays (running or passing) with his feet. He missed an open guy and took off anmd created another open guy. No issue there. If Hoyer misses an open guy he will probably get sacked or throw it away. Even great QB's sometimes miss the open guy, Rothlisberger has done it plenty over his career but he keeps the play alive and another option presents itself.


I can agree with this. I do support Hoyer, but even I can admit he's been underwhelming this preaseason.

My biggest deal is really that Johnny has been far more underwhelming as far as his quarterbacking skills go, but so many on this board have ignored it due to a few (see few) exciting plays.

It was a QB battle and the decision has been a group effort to decide who was the best right now. The collective agreement of the coaching staff is that Hoyer is better. Although BooyaCS will think it's purely Pettine's decision. A lot of people who do this for a living think differently than most on here.


It wasn't purely Pettine's decision but it was ultimately Pettine's decision.

Make sense?


Your right. Thats his responsibility as the boss.

But don't you think that if the whole coaching staff or even half of the coaching staff thought otherwise, the media would have found out and been all over it by now?
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pscottdai


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
I think Lebeau feasts on hoyer and we lose after our defense gets tired in classic browns fashion. Run game looks good. Defense looks good in the first three quarters


This is what I see as well. Hoyer is going to get picked off twice because he locks onto his first read to much. Happened in preseason. Crazy that Manziel goes through reads better


Lay off the drink Hornby Smile No way did Manziel go through reads better - that or we were watching two different games weekly.


Last edited by pscottdai on Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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davdukes4


Joined: 05 May 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
bulldog wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
bulldog wrote:
We'd be far worse with Manziel in the game.

Can't throw the ball. Collapses under non pressure. Missed the broad side of a barn last week.

But let's continue to hope Hoyer fails to see a guys who can throw pretend to play QB.

Those throws to Dray and Burleson looked pretty damn good. So did the one to Barnidge.

And the kid can make plays with his feet.

hoyer can't seem to do anything against first teAm defenses.

I don't hope he sucks, but I think he will


I won't take those away from him. The pass to barnidge and Dray were perfect. The one to Burleson was unnecessary but he held the ball forever. He had an open guy for a first down (Benji I think) wide left but panicked and ran.

Johnny has had FAR more bad than good this preseason. And most people say he can do things with his legs. That's great, but he needs to be a QB first.

PFF ranked johnny to having to third WORST passing grade of every qb this preseason. He's been awful as a QB.

This is not me supporting Hoyer, but johnny is not ready to play in the NFL.


whos to say that getting yards with your legs isnt what a QB can do in 2014? why do we discriminate against rushing yards by a QB? They are real yards with real impact- often big back breakers on 3rd downs. We should know as Ben Roethlisberger usually does it to us.

This is you supporting Hoyer. Johnny Manziel isn't as ready as he could be- sure. He's still a better option than Brian "I'm a bum" Hoyer


Being able to throw the ball well/successfully is the ante for a QB.

If being able to run were as important, Tebow would still be in the league.

Manziel has added some energy to the game when he is in, and seemingly only when on the run to his right.

When he can consistently deliver balls on target working through progressions I will be glad to have him on the field.

Until then, I wish Hoyer well and hope Manziel sits for a while.


Panthers went 12-4 with 3300 yards passing and 24 passing tds. I think Johnny could finish the season with 500 yards rushing and 6 rushing tds. Now if we could only flash forward three years when Johnny is 24 and developed.
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pscottdai


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
bulldog wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
bulldog wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
bulldog wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
ditchdigger wrote:
bulldog wrote:
We'd be far worse with Manziel in the game.

Can't throw the ball. Collapses under non pressure. Missed the broad side of a barn last week.

But let's continue to hope Hoyer fails to see a guys who can throw pretend to play QB.


I don't follow. Verbiage in that last sentence was strange.

We'll see I guess. \_(ツ)_/ I just have no faith in Hoyer to do anything except disappoint. Not hoping he'll fail, just expecting based on empirical evidence. We have seen his best, and it's barely average.


And he doesn't step into throws because he doesn't trust the knee. His throws are going to sail which will lead to TOs

I expect a statline similar to this from Hoyer
4 comp
10 attempts
34 yards
1 Int


And johnny will throw severely under thrown ducks that will get picked.

That stat line is a joke.


Just like Hoyer starting is a joke


He's the browns best option. Deal with it.


No he isn't. He is Pettine's option. Like I said before Pettine would rather go 0-16 with Hoyer than to start a rookie QB.


Lol

Except every statline, throw, read, says otherwise.

Hoyer has far and away out performed johnny in accuracy(including drops throw aways and spikes) and while under pressure

The only thing johnny has done better is scramble.

Your entitled to your opinion, but every fact says your wrong. And by a large margin.


*You're.

Your wrong = A wrong you own

You're wrong = You are wrong

I think you're wrong for framing your opinion of these QBs based on preseason statistics/play.

You're also wrong in dismissing Manziel's ability to keep drives going and score, which is the area that he outplays Hoyer most. That ability just so happens to be the essence of the position.

I am not by any means saying that Manziel is "ready" to play, but nobody was saying that about Big Ben his rookie year either.

All I'm saying is you never know until they get their shot. Week 1 might be early, but it's inevitable.

On a long enough timeline, Hoyer is the backup.


But that is just it - if Johnny was any freaking good as a QB he wouldn't have to make those 'Johnny' plays to keep a drive alive. The kid has been inaccurate as all heck so has to run to make up for it. I want a QB that can hit what he is throwing at and then run when the pocket actually does collapse rather than running because he screwed up the previous two plays.
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H2ThaIzzo


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Manziel hate is crazy. There is no doubt that the guy tried to force some throws, especially in that last preseason game. Some of his passes looked really bad, nothing like in college. Anyone that has ever played the game, or even tossed a ball around for that matter could tell on a few of those deep passes he was really trying to throw too hard, grip the ball extra tight, and they came out horrible. He will learn from it. Hopefully the coaches will also learn from it, and decide not to wait until game 4 of preseason to throw the ball downfield some. That goes for both Hoyer and Manziel.

Having said this, Manziel also had some good passes that got dropped. People love looking at box scores and saying his completion % was at 50%. People forget that he had a better WR in college than he has gotten to play with so far as a Brown. His time has been limited with both Cameron and Gordon.

People really minimize the impact that never having a playbook before this year has had on him so far. I'd say he has done some damn good things considering. I'm perfectly fine if he doesn't see the field right away. But I think it's a damn shame that some people feel like he has been a disappointment so far.
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bungleodeon


Joined: 19 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

H2ThaIzzo wrote:
the Manziel hate is crazy. There is no doubt that the guy tried to force some throws, especially in that last preseason game. Some of his passes looked really bad, nothing like in college. Anyone that has ever played the game, or even tossed a ball around for that matter could tell on a few of those deep passes he was really trying to throw too hard, grip the ball extra tight, and they came out horrible. He will learn from it. Hopefully the coaches will also learn from it, and decide not to wait until game 4 of preseason to throw the ball downfield some. That goes for both Hoyer and Manziel.

Having said this, Manziel also had some good passes that got dropped. People love looking at box scores and saying his completion % was at 50%. People forget that he had a better WR in college than he has gotten to play with so far as a Brown. His time has been limited with both Cameron and Gordon.

People really minimize the impact that never having a playbook before this year has had on him so far. I'd say he has done some damn good things considering. I'm perfectly fine if he doesn't see the field right away. But I think it's a damn shame that some people feel like he has been a disappointment so far.


I think the only people saying he has been a disappointment are people that thought he would step in and be ready to start week 1. I never thought that was a good idea and JFF has only shown that to be accurate. Hoyer is going to be bad, there's no doubt in my mind, but I'd still rather he go in to start the season.

This season, like so many others, is another throw away year. JFF gets at least 8 starts and I'd be happy with that. Only way he will or should get less than that is if Hoyer some how looks good. I doubt that.
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who does Pittsburgh have in their front 7 that scares you...? Jason Worilds is a product of their scheme. That defense excels because of Lebeau. They have guys either unproven or old. They have a suspect offensive line and I don't have a clue what's up with their RB's.

If you take Big Ben off that team, they're picking bottom 5. Unfortunately it's like Brady and Belicheck with New England. They will win because of Ben and Lebeau.
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pnies20


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman93 wrote:
Who does Pittsburgh have in their front 7 that scares you...? Jason Worilds is a product of their scheme. That defense excels because of Lebeau. They have guys either unproven or old. They have a suspect offensive line and I don't have a clue what's up with their RB's.

If you take Big Ben off that team, they're picking bottom 5. Unfortunately it's like Brady and Belicheck with New England. They will win because of Ben and Lebeau.


Worilds, Shazier and Timmons are solid. I couldn't even tell you what's up with their DL. They have zero depth all over their roster. If we can get our D off the field we could win this game fairly easily.
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pnies20 wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
Who does Pittsburgh have in their front 7 that scares you...? Jason Worilds is a product of their scheme. That defense excels because of Lebeau. They have guys either unproven or old. They have a suspect offensive line and I don't have a clue what's up with their RB's.

If you take Big Ben off that team, they're picking bottom 5. Unfortunately it's like Brady and Belicheck with New England. They will win because of Ben and Lebeau.


Worilds, Shazier and Timmons are solid. I couldn't even tell you what's up with their DL. They have zero depth all over their roster. If we can get our D off the field we could win this game fairly easily.


I think Heyward is the only one you have to worry about on the line. The linebackers are a mixed bag but probably a little above average as a group. The secondary will struggle, hopefully starting week one, but certainly at some point this season. Ike Taylor is still a starter.
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
H2ThaIzzo wrote:
the Manziel hate is crazy. There is no doubt that the guy tried to force some throws, especially in that last preseason game. Some of his passes looked really bad, nothing like in college. Anyone that has ever played the game, or even tossed a ball around for that matter could tell on a few of those deep passes he was really trying to throw too hard, grip the ball extra tight, and they came out horrible. He will learn from it. Hopefully the coaches will also learn from it, and decide not to wait until game 4 of preseason to throw the ball downfield some. That goes for both Hoyer and Manziel.

Having said this, Manziel also had some good passes that got dropped. People love looking at box scores and saying his completion % was at 50%. People forget that he had a better WR in college than he has gotten to play with so far as a Brown. His time has been limited with both Cameron and Gordon.

People really minimize the impact that never having a playbook before this year has had on him so far. I'd say he has done some damn good things considering. I'm perfectly fine if he doesn't see the field right away. But I think it's a damn shame that some people feel like he has been a disappointment so far.


I think the only people saying he has been a disappointment are people that thought he would step in and be ready to start week 1. I never thought that was a good idea and JFF has only shown that to be accurate. Hoyer is going to be bad, there's no doubt in my mind, but I'd still rather he go in to start the season.

This season, like so many others, is another throw away year. JFF gets at least 8 starts and I'd be happy with that. Only way he will or should get less than that is if Hoyer some how looks good. I doubt that.


Pretty fair appraisal.
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just watched the Bears game, Manziel struggled with some throws but wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Looked good running around, kept his eyes down field.

Crowell was impressive. He attacks the hole if there is one. Was up against scrubs but there is potential for him to be the best back on our roster.
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hornbybrown


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we win this 17-14 with a INT TD and Tate breaks a big run for a TD
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duke2056


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me first start off by saying I never thought and still dont think Manziel was a good pick or that he will be a good QB.

But if anyone thinks he has been a disappointment you are wrong, mostly wrong in what your initial expectations were for him. I am not sure how or why you expected him to better than he has to this point.

The guy has a unique athletic skillset. He can also make all the throws a successful NFL QB needs to make, both from the pocket and on the move.

What he lacked in college and still lacks is his ability to be a QB, mental aspect. Thing is, this happens to be the MOST important aspect of what a successful QB needs. It is obviously yet to be determined if he possesses the ability to learn the NFL game in such a way that will bring us success.

As much as I didnt want him, I definitely recognize that if he figured that part out (HUGE if in my book), he will be very good.
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Manziel was going to be a noodle armed turd. His arm strength is actually pretty decent. So he's actually surprised me a little bit in a good way. I knew he was a raw project.
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