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TheStarStillShines


Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WizardHawk wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
TheStarStillShines wrote:
There may be more youth, but the talent level is much worse, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Depth across the team is also extremely questionable. So while you could say there is a "youth movement" occurring, the quality of that "movement" is subpar at best. Let's be honest, is this team in any position to win the Super Bowl over the next two to three years, basically the time left on Romo's deal? I don't think so. It's going to take at least 2 to 3 years to rebuild the defence and acquire the depth across the team needed to be a contender.


We've seen teams turn it around in a year before. Heck, the Chiefs went from having the #1 overall pick to making the playoffs the next year.

It's the NFL and anything can happen.



While I agree that it could happen, the Chiefs benefitted from a very friendly schedule, I believe their first 5-6 opponents had a .300 something win %. Also iirc, I was reading somewhere KC only made something like 7-8 roster changes. Dallas needs that plus a few more just to fill out their roster. And, do it with limited cap space.


The Chiefs also had 6 Pro Bowlers at the 2013 Pro Bowl (or 2012 season). They were a very talented team, but poor QB play and coaching, especially on the offensive side, were the primary culprits for their underachievement.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need certain pieces, no doubt. But largely I think - aside from QB (most important spot) we are set offensively. To that I mean, there is no drastic overhaul that is needed. Yes, the RT (or RG) spot needs to be addressed. But that is hardly needed to napalm the issue.

Defense, the hope is that Lawrence will be our starter (he is a rookie - who knows). The Hope is that Melton would be a starter. Crawford would be a decent rotation guy and McClain should afford the same. So on the DL we are missing two impact players and two role players. Selvie would be a back-up and it looks like they are hoping Coleman would be much the same. So we are really looking for 2 key players on the DL.

LB unit is a mess. BEST case is that not only McClain works out but also Lee is Health, then we are just missing our SAM starter and a back-up spot. Realistically, though, we may need to overhaul the whole unit.

CBs we seem fine. Constant competition can only help. Not really concerned.

Church would make a great back-up, #3. There is hope for Wilcox so I expect them to run with that experiment a little longer.

Really our biggest concerns are DL and LBer. An issue, no doubt. But I don't think we need to blow it up. Just need to continue the methodical replacement.
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What don't you like about Wilber at the SLB spot, T_O? Personally I thought he did well at that position last year.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
What don't you like about Wilber at the SLB spot, T_O? Personally I thought he did well at that position last year.


Meh. We should trade him to a 34 team. Maybe a back-up? Meh.
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htfryar


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
What don't you like about Wilber at the SLB spot, T_O? Personally I thought he did well at that position last year.


Meh. We should trade him to a 34 team. Maybe a back-up? Meh.


We really haven't even seen him play that spot much. What we did see last year looked pretty decent. Seeing as how he is the only guy that the coaches haven't moved all offseason, I'm interested in seeing what he brings to the field this year. Plus, he can slide down to RDE on passing downs. Teams need role players and it sounds as if Wilber is going to be that kinda guy for us.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's pretty much the thing. We have a few guys, who as back-ups will do fine. I am much less concerned with depth as I am with starting quality.
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htfryar


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
That's pretty much the thing. We have a few guys, who as back-ups will do fine. I am much less concerned with depth as I am with starting quality.


How do we know that Wilber isn't a starting caliber SLB? Did you see enough in the roughly 4 games last season and the 2 preseason games this year to decide that he sucks? I didn't. I need to see what he can do this year before I proclaim him good enough or not.
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
We need certain pieces, no doubt. But largely I think - aside from QB (most important spot) we are set offensively. To that I mean, there is no drastic overhaul that is needed. Yes, the RT (or RG) spot needs to be addressed. But that is hardly needed to napalm the issue.

Defense, the hope is that Lawrence will be our starter (he is a rookie - who knows). The Hope is that Melton would be a starter. Crawford would be a decent rotation guy and McClain should afford the same. So on the DL we are missing two impact players and two role players. Selvie would be a back-up and it looks like they are hoping Coleman would be much the same. So we are really looking for 2 key players on the DL.

LB unit is a mess. BEST case is that not only McClain works out but also Lee is Health, then we are just missing our SAM starter and a back-up spot. Realistically, though, we may need to overhaul the whole unit.

CBs we seem fine. Constant competition can only help. Not really concerned.

Church would make a great back-up, #3. There is hope for Wilcox so I expect them to run with that experiment a little longer.

Really our biggest concerns are DL and LBer. An issue, no doubt. But I don't think we need to blow it up. Just need to continue the methodical replacement.


Finding five to seven starters on defence (2 DL, 3 LBs, and arguably 2 safeties) will take a couple of years, likely during the time that Romo should be replaced. If that's the case, may as well "blow it up" and go with a younger team with more cap flexibility in 2 to 3 years time. By "blow it up", I mean trading or releasing most of the team's older players, including Romo, and building around some of the younger pieces, including Dez, the OL, and a handful of other guys.
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
We need certain pieces, no doubt. But largely I think - aside from QB (most important spot) we are set offensively. To that I mean, there is no drastic overhaul that is needed. Yes, the RT (or RG) spot needs to be addressed. But that is hardly needed to napalm the issue.

Defense, the hope is that Lawrence will be our starter (he is a rookie - who knows). The Hope is that Melton would be a starter. Crawford would be a decent rotation guy and McClain should afford the same. So on the DL we are missing two impact players and two role players. Selvie would be a back-up and it looks like they are hoping Coleman would be much the same. So we are really looking for 2 key players on the DL.

LB unit is a mess. BEST case is that not only McClain works out but also Lee is Health, then we are just missing our SAM starter and a back-up spot. Realistically, though, we may need to overhaul the whole unit.

CBs we seem fine. Constant competition can only help. Not really concerned.

Church would make a great back-up, #3. There is hope for Wilcox so I expect them to run with that experiment a little longer.

Really our biggest concerns are DL and LBer. An issue, no doubt. But I don't think we need to blow it up. Just need to continue the methodical replacement.



I may be reading you wrong, and I apologize if I am, but you seem to be talking about what we have now, present day. My concern is that the youth we have aquired that is producing now will be in its prime in 3 years. By that time players like Romo, Witten, Carr, Free, Lee etc will be past theirs or out of here all together.

That means we need to draft all of our DL players and LB and S in the next 2 -3 years. By that time the OL will be rolling and hitting its prime, the D line will only be just getting started (where the O line is now) and we would still need a QB, possible RB, TE.

So my question is this:

With an eye on the future, and not wanting to waste our O lines prime by grooming a new QB and bringing a DL up to speed, would you be willing to make a deal with another team by trading Dez now for say a 1st and 3rd this year, a 2nd and 5th next year?

That would put us at:

2015 draft:

1st
1st

2nd

3rd
3rd

4th-7th

2016 draft:

1st

2nd
2nd

3rd

4th

5th
5th

6 & 7

That would be 9 players in the first 3 rounds of both drafts combined.

You could aquire a lot of talent that way, clean up some cap space and put yourself in a position to compete for the next 4 or 5 years.

You could do all of that

OR

Keep Dez and let him waste his talent on a team whose biggest problem is there lack of depth and the age gap between the veteran players and young players.

Be realistic, does this team strike you as a super bowl contender? Would it if S. Lee was still playing and D Ware was still here?
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
We need certain pieces, no doubt. But largely I think - aside from QB (most important spot) we are set offensively. To that I mean, there is no drastic overhaul that is needed. Yes, the RT (or RG) spot needs to be addressed. But that is hardly needed to napalm the issue.

Defense, the hope is that Lawrence will be our starter (he is a rookie - who knows). The Hope is that Melton would be a starter. Crawford would be a decent rotation guy and McClain should afford the same. So on the DL we are missing two impact players and two role players. Selvie would be a back-up and it looks like they are hoping Coleman would be much the same. So we are really looking for 2 key players on the DL.

LB unit is a mess. BEST case is that not only McClain works out but also Lee is Health, then we are just missing our SAM starter and a back-up spot. Realistically, though, we may need to overhaul the whole unit.

CBs we seem fine. Constant competition can only help. Not really concerned.

Church would make a great back-up, #3. There is hope for Wilcox so I expect them to run with that experiment a little longer.

Really our biggest concerns are DL and LBer. An issue, no doubt. But I don't think we need to blow it up. Just need to continue the methodical replacement.


Finding five to seven starters on defence (2 DL, 3 LBs, and arguably 2 safeties) will take a couple of years, likely during the time that Romo should be replaced. If that's the case, may as well "blow it up" and go with a younger team with more cap flexibility in 2 to 3 years time. By "blow it up", I mean trading or releasing most of the team's older players, including Romo, and building around some of the younger pieces, including Dez, the OL, and a handful of other guys.


I think...we are disagreeing in what we consider blowing up. To me, Blowup is a fire-sale of all assets in order to start at ground zero. But I don't think that is what your saying.

The offense is set. The defense is riddle with Questionmarks. And at somepoint Romo will retire. To me it's a matter of getting to work and getting the players we need.

I don't see the value in losing cornerstone players like Dez or the OL - nor giving up on rookies before their first NFL snap before I try to trade like a mad man. Which, again, I don't think you are saying.

We have work to do on defense. Absolutely. I just think we differ on the definition of blowup.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rtnldave wrote:
snip


I don't consider anyone under the age of 30 (Carr / Lee) to be past their prime nor close to passing it. So we disagree.

Witten, while an Ironman will retire at somepoint. Pablo will be fine in his stead. We won't always have a HOFer at the TE position. Same with Romo, only we do need his replacement sooner rather than later.

I also don't think we need all of the DL spot. We might. If Melton can bounce back and Law sucks. And I value S position as the lowest (DAMN YOU TUNA!) so I am not concerned getting a 1st rounder to play the spot.

Ultimately two things need to happen. The you guys need to develop and show they are worth a damn. If they don't then we are back to square one. If they do then we need to continue to enhance positions. The roster turnover has been crazy.

Our OL is 23 on average - the Studs anyways. They should have over a decade of great play ahead of them. I am in no rush to look for the quick fix. I think that's in large part what got us in this mess (IE Roy Williams). I want us to develop our players and not have someone else reap the rewards for our impatience. So I don't agree with your two options. What if we get all those picks and the draft ends up being filled with the talent equivalent to the 2009 draft? Quantity isn't always better.

Right now we have an Elite player in Dez. Moreso, we have an elite player who isn't a disgruntle diva. Players like that are rare. I don't just go trading them for assets. Not saying that the right offer can't come around - but it would take a lot and it is not something I'd really consider at this point.

Realistically we should not with the SuperBowl this year. That doesn't mean they can;t make that jump - it is just simply unlikely.

We need depth. A lot of young guys are gonna get some critical reps this year to prove their mettle. Seattle DL doesn't have Suh or McCoy - but they have a hell of a rotation. Depth matters.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, without hindsight I would have been against the Walker too. So explosive trades can yield bountiful results. But it isn't my style.
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
For the record, without hindsight I would have been against the Walker too. So explosive trades can yield bountiful results. But it isn't my style.


GTFO!

Even with hindsight and forgetting everything else that came with the trade... how and why in the world would you say no to a trade that nets you three 1st rd and three 2nd rd picks for one player?

Someone comes up and makes that offer for Dez you're saying no?
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WizardHawk wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
For the record, without hindsight I would have been against the Walker too. So explosive trades can yield bountiful results. But it isn't my style.


GTFO!

Even with hindsight and forgetting everything else that came with the trade... how and why in the world would you say no to a trade that nets you three 1st rd and three 2nd rd picks for one player?


Especially one who was nowhere near elite...just happened to be the best on a talent-bare team.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WizardHawk wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
For the record, without hindsight I would have been against the Walker too. So explosive trades can yield bountiful results. But it isn't my style.


GTFO!

Even with hindsight and forgetting everything else that came with the trade... how and why in the world would you say no to a trade that nets you three 1st rd and three 2nd rd picks for one player?

Someone comes up and makes that offer for Dez you're saying no?


Jesus, I had forgotten it was three 1sts. I was think it was only 1.

Minnesota Vikings received
RB Herschel Walker
Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1990 (54) (Mike Jones)
San Diego's 5th round pick - 1990 (116) (Reggie Thornton)
Dallas's 10th round pick - 1990 (249) (Pat Newman)
Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1991 (6Cool (Jake Reed)

Dallas Cowboys received
LB Jesse Solomon
LB David Howard
CB Issiac Holt
RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
DE Alex Stewart
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (12) (Alvin Harper)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (3Cool (Dixon Edwards)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (37) (Darren Woodson)
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional) - (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins)[1]

Forgot what a haul that really was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

Yeah, it would suck to let Dez go - but I would not be able to turn that down. BUT TYPICALLY, I don't trade superstars. Laughing
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