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roger murdock


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 6322
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duke2056 wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
StewieRules wrote:
Ok ... this is a hypothetical mind you, i am NOT advocating this and don't wish it upon us but just for the sake of discussion -- supposing, just for a minute, that the worst QB scenario happens - that Hoyer takes the appearance of a journeyman and Manziel, for whatever reason, doesn't master the playbook and can't in fact play the role of disciplined pocket primarily QB .... or has injury issues given his size. What then? Some good QB's coming out next year .... do we draft another one? Has a team EVER used back to back 1st round pick on a QB? I honestly don't know the answer to that.But given that we have for the 2nd year in a row an extra pick ....would that even be a possibility?


I'd certainly be okay with it if it was obvious Johnny would never be our guy. I don't want to see that happen but you have to find a franchise QB no matter what it takes.


What on Earth would have to happen this year for it to be "obvious" that Johnny isn't our guy?

I mean, I have never thought he would be good, but honestly, if there was EVER a QB who needs more than a year, it would be Johnny. I have no idea how he would be able to come into the league with his skillset and lack of experience with any legit type of offense and do well, ot even average. I mean, it is POSSIBLE, but even Farmer had to realize he would likely suck this year.


Its been obvious plenty of times before. Gabbert obviously wasn't the guy year one. Weeden obviously wasn't the guy year one.

I personally don't think you need to see much to be able to tell if a QBs got it or doesnt. You usually can tell pretty easily if someones going to be great, servicable, or bad. It was obvious early on guys like Weeden and Gabbert were destined to suck, guys like Flacco and Cutler were going to be good overall but wildly inconsistent, and that Luck and Wilson will be stars.

I thought before the draft Manziel would suck and the team that takes him will look stupid, based on what I've seen so far I think hes going to suck and we will look stupid for drafting him. I'll give it a year but if we go 2-14 and look embarrassing you're damn right I want a real QB first overall.
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duke2056


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
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Location: Cleveland area
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roger murdock wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
StewieRules wrote:
Ok ... this is a hypothetical mind you, i am NOT advocating this and don't wish it upon us but just for the sake of discussion -- supposing, just for a minute, that the worst QB scenario happens - that Hoyer takes the appearance of a journeyman and Manziel, for whatever reason, doesn't master the playbook and can't in fact play the role of disciplined pocket primarily QB .... or has injury issues given his size. What then? Some good QB's coming out next year .... do we draft another one? Has a team EVER used back to back 1st round pick on a QB? I honestly don't know the answer to that.But given that we have for the 2nd year in a row an extra pick ....would that even be a possibility?


I'd certainly be okay with it if it was obvious Johnny would never be our guy. I don't want to see that happen but you have to find a franchise QB no matter what it takes.


What on Earth would have to happen this year for it to be "obvious" that Johnny isn't our guy?

I mean, I have never thought he would be good, but honestly, if there was EVER a QB who needs more than a year, it would be Johnny. I have no idea how he would be able to come into the league with his skillset and lack of experience with any legit type of offense and do well, ot even average. I mean, it is POSSIBLE, but even Farmer had to realize he would likely suck this year.


Its been obvious plenty of times before. Gabbert obviously wasn't the guy year one. Weeden obviously wasn't the guy year one.

I personally don't think you need to see much to be able to tell if a QBs got it or doesnt. You usually can tell pretty easily if someones going to be great, servicable, or bad. It was obvious early on guys like Weeden and Gabbert were destined to suck, guys like Flacco and Cutler were going to be good overall but wildly inconsistent, and that Luck and Wilson will be stars.

I thought before the draft Manziel would suck and the team that takes him will look stupid, based on what I've seen so far I think hes going to suck and we will look stupid for drafting him. I'll give it a year but if we go 2-14 and look embarrassing you're damn right I want a real QB first overall.


If true, picking him was a total waste, since it was painfully obviously he needs work.

But I definitely disagree with what you are saying. Look how many very good QBs there are in the league that didnt play their first few years. If they did, they would have looked horrible enough for YOU to say they had no shot to be good.

Johnny's skillset and current ability is that of a guy who SHOULD sit a while, but if he gets tossed in there and looks horrible you will think he has no shot???

I dont like Johnny either, and didnt want to pick him, but if there was any thought to the possibility he wouldnt get another chance after this year no matter how he looks, then the pick was a total waste.
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roger murdock


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually thought Manziel was the most pro-ready NFL QB this year because the only reason you take him is for his legs and 'Johnny Football make something happen when theres nothing there' ability. You don't draft Johnny Football to play a cerebral break the defense down style, you draft him for his instinct and athleticism.

Granted - it doesn't seem our coaching staff wants to use that to their advantage, but thats another issue altogether.
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CleBrowns07


Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't believe we're already talking hypotheticals to draft another QB next year...the impatience and exaggerations of some posters on this site make my head hurt. Jesus...we won't be satisfied with a QB until he puts up Peyton Manning numbers every year and even then guys would still criticize him. Give the dude a freakin' chance first.
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duke2056


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roger murdock wrote:
I actually thought Manziel was the most pro-ready NFL QB this year


I probably have never disagreed with anything anyone has ever said more than this statement (well, maybe a stretch on my part, but maybe not, cause I disagree about as strongly as I possibly can with your comment)
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2014 draft prediction:

Zero chance the Browns draft a QB at pick 4, or trade up for a QB.

And Matt Ryan is so great he has one playoff win.
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 7041
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duke2056 wrote:
roger murdock wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
StewieRules wrote:
Ok ... this is a hypothetical mind you, i am NOT advocating this and don't wish it upon us but just for the sake of discussion -- supposing, just for a minute, that the worst QB scenario happens - that Hoyer takes the appearance of a journeyman and Manziel, for whatever reason, doesn't master the playbook and can't in fact play the role of disciplined pocket primarily QB .... or has injury issues given his size. What then? Some good QB's coming out next year .... do we draft another one? Has a team EVER used back to back 1st round pick on a QB? I honestly don't know the answer to that.But given that we have for the 2nd year in a row an extra pick ....would that even be a possibility?


I'd certainly be okay with it if it was obvious Johnny would never be our guy. I don't want to see that happen but you have to find a franchise QB no matter what it takes.


What on Earth would have to happen this year for it to be "obvious" that Johnny isn't our guy?

I mean, I have never thought he would be good, but honestly, if there was EVER a QB who needs more than a year, it would be Johnny. I have no idea how he would be able to come into the league with his skillset and lack of experience with any legit type of offense and do well, ot even average. I mean, it is POSSIBLE, but even Farmer had to realize he would likely suck this year.


Its been obvious plenty of times before. Gabbert obviously wasn't the guy year one. Weeden obviously wasn't the guy year one.

I personally don't think you need to see much to be able to tell if a QBs got it or doesnt. You usually can tell pretty easily if someones going to be great, servicable, or bad. It was obvious early on guys like Weeden and Gabbert were destined to suck, guys like Flacco and Cutler were going to be good overall but wildly inconsistent, and that Luck and Wilson will be stars.

I thought before the draft Manziel would suck and the team that takes him will look stupid, based on what I've seen so far I think hes going to suck and we will look stupid for drafting him. I'll give it a year but if we go 2-14 and look embarrassing you're damn right I want a real QB first overall.


If true, picking him was a total waste, since it was painfully obviously he needs work.

But I definitely disagree with what you are saying. Look how many very good QBs there are in the league that didnt play their first few years. If they did, they would have looked horrible enough for YOU to say they had no shot to be good.

Johnny's skillset and current ability is that of a guy who SHOULD sit a while, but if he gets tossed in there and looks horrible you will think he has no shot???

I dont like Johnny either, and didnt want to pick him, but if there was any thought to the possibility he wouldnt get another chance after this year no matter how he looks, then the pick was a total waste.


Picking Weeden was a total waste.

Don't think Manziel will be as useless.

Still on the fence as to whether he was a good or bad pick.

His play so far hasn't shown me it's one way or the other.

What it has shown me is he needs time to grow into the NFL game.
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roger murdock


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont understand the point of drafting Johhny Manziel and then sitting him long term to try and make him something hes not. If hes ever going to be a decent player, its going to be by running around like a chicken with his head cut off pulling plays out of nowhere like he did in college.
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roger murdock wrote:
I dont understand the point of drafting Johhny Manziel and then sitting him long term to try and make him something hes not. If hes ever going to be a decent player, its going to be by running around like a chicken with his head cut off pulling plays out of nowhere like he did in college.


In that case he is never going to be a decent player and we will continue to suck.
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Braylon4MVP


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roger murdock wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
StewieRules wrote:
Ok ... this is a hypothetical mind you, i am NOT advocating this and don't wish it upon us but just for the sake of discussion -- supposing, just for a minute, that the worst QB scenario happens - that Hoyer takes the appearance of a journeyman and Manziel, for whatever reason, doesn't master the playbook and can't in fact play the role of disciplined pocket primarily QB .... or has injury issues given his size. What then? Some good QB's coming out next year .... do we draft another one? Has a team EVER used back to back 1st round pick on a QB? I honestly don't know the answer to that.But given that we have for the 2nd year in a row an extra pick ....would that even be a possibility?


I'd certainly be okay with it if it was obvious Johnny would never be our guy. I don't want to see that happen but you have to find a franchise QB no matter what it takes.


What on Earth would have to happen this year for it to be "obvious" that Johnny isn't our guy?

I mean, I have never thought he would be good, but honestly, if there was EVER a QB who needs more than a year, it would be Johnny. I have no idea how he would be able to come into the league with his skillset and lack of experience with any legit type of offense and do well, ot even average. I mean, it is POSSIBLE, but even Farmer had to realize he would likely suck this year.


Its been obvious plenty of times before. Gabbert obviously wasn't the guy year one. Weeden obviously wasn't the guy year one.

I personally don't think you need to see much to be able to tell if a QBs got it or doesnt. You usually can tell pretty easily if someones going to be great, servicable, or bad. It was obvious early on guys like Weeden and Gabbert were destined to suck, guys like Flacco and Cutler were going to be good overall but wildly inconsistent, and that Luck and Wilson will be stars.

I thought before the draft Manziel would suck and the team that takes him will look stupid, based on what I've seen so far I think hes going to suck and we will look stupid for drafting him. I'll give it a year but if we go 2-14 and look embarrassing you're damn right I want a real QB first overall.


Weeden definitely showed flashes his rookie year.
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Braylon4MVP wrote:
roger murdock wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
StewieRules wrote:
Ok ... this is a hypothetical mind you, i am NOT advocating this and don't wish it upon us but just for the sake of discussion -- supposing, just for a minute, that the worst QB scenario happens - that Hoyer takes the appearance of a journeyman and Manziel, for whatever reason, doesn't master the playbook and can't in fact play the role of disciplined pocket primarily QB .... or has injury issues given his size. What then? Some good QB's coming out next year .... do we draft another one? Has a team EVER used back to back 1st round pick on a QB? I honestly don't know the answer to that.But given that we have for the 2nd year in a row an extra pick ....would that even be a possibility?


I'd certainly be okay with it if it was obvious Johnny would never be our guy. I don't want to see that happen but you have to find a franchise QB no matter what it takes.


What on Earth would have to happen this year for it to be "obvious" that Johnny isn't our guy?

I mean, I have never thought he would be good, but honestly, if there was EVER a QB who needs more than a year, it would be Johnny. I have no idea how he would be able to come into the league with his skillset and lack of experience with any legit type of offense and do well, ot even average. I mean, it is POSSIBLE, but even Farmer had to realize he would likely suck this year.


Its been obvious plenty of times before. Gabbert obviously wasn't the guy year one. Weeden obviously wasn't the guy year one.

I personally don't think you need to see much to be able to tell if a QBs got it or doesnt. You usually can tell pretty easily if someones going to be great, servicable, or bad. It was obvious early on guys like Weeden and Gabbert were destined to suck, guys like Flacco and Cutler were going to be good overall but wildly inconsistent, and that Luck and Wilson will be stars.

I thought before the draft Manziel would suck and the team that takes him will look stupid, based on what I've seen so far I think hes going to suck and we will look stupid for drafting him. I'll give it a year but if we go 2-14 and look embarrassing you're damn right I want a real QB first overall.


Weeden definitely showed flashes his rookie year.


He still shows flashes, that TD pass last game was beautiful.

Its just flashes though.
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Braylon4MVP


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
Braylon4MVP wrote:
roger murdock wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
StewieRules wrote:
Ok ... this is a hypothetical mind you, i am NOT advocating this and don't wish it upon us but just for the sake of discussion -- supposing, just for a minute, that the worst QB scenario happens - that Hoyer takes the appearance of a journeyman and Manziel, for whatever reason, doesn't master the playbook and can't in fact play the role of disciplined pocket primarily QB .... or has injury issues given his size. What then? Some good QB's coming out next year .... do we draft another one? Has a team EVER used back to back 1st round pick on a QB? I honestly don't know the answer to that.But given that we have for the 2nd year in a row an extra pick ....would that even be a possibility?


I'd certainly be okay with it if it was obvious Johnny would never be our guy. I don't want to see that happen but you have to find a franchise QB no matter what it takes.


What on Earth would have to happen this year for it to be "obvious" that Johnny isn't our guy?

I mean, I have never thought he would be good, but honestly, if there was EVER a QB who needs more than a year, it would be Johnny. I have no idea how he would be able to come into the league with his skillset and lack of experience with any legit type of offense and do well, ot even average. I mean, it is POSSIBLE, but even Farmer had to realize he would likely suck this year.


Its been obvious plenty of times before. Gabbert obviously wasn't the guy year one. Weeden obviously wasn't the guy year one.

I personally don't think you need to see much to be able to tell if a QBs got it or doesnt. You usually can tell pretty easily if someones going to be great, servicable, or bad. It was obvious early on guys like Weeden and Gabbert were destined to suck, guys like Flacco and Cutler were going to be good overall but wildly inconsistent, and that Luck and Wilson will be stars.

I thought before the draft Manziel would suck and the team that takes him will look stupid, based on what I've seen so far I think hes going to suck and we will look stupid for drafting him. I'll give it a year but if we go 2-14 and look embarrassing you're damn right I want a real QB first overall.


Weeden definitely showed flashes his rookie year.


He still shows flashes, that TD pass last game was beautiful.

Its just flashes though.


What I'm saying is that we didn't know Weeden wasn't our guy after only one year.

And I still think the guy has potential. I think if Romo were to go down that Weeden would play well enough that someone would let him battle for a starting spot next year.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate thinking of how confident I was in you all last year at this same time relative to where you are now. Crying or Very sad

At least there is still the good LBJ.
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Braylon4MVP


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
I hate thinking of how confident I was in you all last year at this same time relative to where you are now. Crying or Very sad

At least there is still the good LBJ.


I was right there with ya man.
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poorbytehshore


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pettine says the starters will play the first quarter against the Bears but dont expect to see Manziel into the 2nd half, as he supposedly wants to see what Grossman and Shaw have.

Call it a conspiracy theory but sounds to me like someone is worried about Hoyer stinking it up again and being outplayed by Johnny Backup.
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tricklogic


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

poorbytehshore wrote:
Pettine says the starters will play the first quarter against the Bears but dont expect to see Manziel into the 2nd half, as he supposedly wants to see what Grossman and Shaw have.

Call it a conspiracy theory but sounds to me like someone is worried about Hoyer stinking it up again and being outplayed by Johnny Backup.


That was exactly what went through my head, especially with how wishy-washy Pettine has been to this point.
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