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hornbybrown


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
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Location: 1600 Pennyslvania Ave
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
bosko1616 wrote:
Hoyer will start. Get crushed the first three games. Manziel will start after the bye week when the OL starts to jell and Gordon's suspension is over Wink


I doubt Manziel sees the field at all this season. Remember Pettine said he wants to be a run first offense and have a good defense.

You don't have a playmaking QB do that you stick in the guy that doesn't do much except not turn the ball over.

If Hoyer goes down I think they skip Manziel and go to Grossman. It seems they are going out of their way to not start Manziel.


That's not the feeling I get. I do think they will start Hoyer which I think is a mistake. I don't think Manziel will be number three.


I get the feeling everyone thinks he is at least a year away. Maybe 2. So they will red-shirt him this year. Pettine is that stubborn to the point he would rather start a vet than a rook even if it meant he would go 0-16.

He is a defensive head coach and thinks he can beat you with running the ball and defense (which with all these defensive holding calls is an absolute joke). Why bother throwing the ball. Just eat up time and field position and maybe get 1 more FG than the opposing team.


He needs to have more smarts than that. I have no doubt Haslim is ok with dumping another Coach after one year.

Which scares me as we need to be patient


Yes we need to be patient. I can see certain things happening mostly Pettine thinking that he can beat you like the Ravens did in 2001 with Trent Dilfer.

He is of that mindset. We need to have long drives on offense (eat clock) and short drives on defense.

Doesn't say anything about scoring on those long offensive drives they just need to happen.


I think our running game is going to be able to help a lot with that. My fear is that defenses have tape on Hoyer now and that they are going to blow him up this year.

Also he is not stepping into his throws properly which will be because of his knee. He doesn't look near the QB that sparked us last year.

Which may partly be down to not getting all the first team reps. But he didn't get them last year till the week he became starter....


He doesn't trust the knee and is afraid to get hit. He is throwing the ball so quick that he doesn't get hit. He is skittish in the pocket because of that and will cost us games.


Yep. Reminds me of RG3 last season. Hopefully it reminds our OC of that to and he makes a case for starting Johnny instead.
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BooyaCS


Joined: 27 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
Pettine will go with Hoyer almost guarenteed. They really don't want to start a rookie and the only way Manziel starts is if Hoyer is injured.

Defensive minded HC's think they can win with Defense and running the football. They don't need an offense nor do they need offensive playmakers just someone to manage the game and swap field position.


I agree...when it's too close to call, yet another coach who will go with experience over the guy who will actually improve. Which makes no sense. Experience is PART of being good, if you have that over the other QB and STILL aren't better, you go with the upside.

BooyaCS wrote:


You don't have a playmaking QB do that you stick in the guy that doesn't do much except not turn the ball over.

.


How many TO's does Manziel have so far? Sure he will eventually, but where is the evidence he is more TO prone than Hoyer? From what I can tell Hoyer's been "off" high more often, Manziel "off" low. The high throws will lead to more picks.


Manziel being a rookie would make him more turnover prone than a quick release vet (at least that is the thinking of our defensive minded HC who is too afraid to throw the ball).

We need to throw the ball more than we run it. It is a passing league and with the new rules and the emphasis on defensive holding it doesn't make sense not to showcase more of a passing offense.

Basically the Browns offense right now is very predictible.

First down Run
Second down short pass or run
Third down short pass or run.

Punt.

I think Pettine wants 200 yards rushing on 40 carries and 100 yards passing on 15 - 20 throws.
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BooyaCS


Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 7520
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
bosko1616 wrote:
Hoyer will start. Get crushed the first three games. Manziel will start after the bye week when the OL starts to jell and Gordon's suspension is over Wink


I doubt Manziel sees the field at all this season. Remember Pettine said he wants to be a run first offense and have a good defense.

You don't have a playmaking QB do that you stick in the guy that doesn't do much except not turn the ball over.

If Hoyer goes down I think they skip Manziel and go to Grossman. It seems they are going out of their way to not start Manziel.


That's not the feeling I get. I do think they will start Hoyer which I think is a mistake. I don't think Manziel will be number three.


I get the feeling everyone thinks he is at least a year away. Maybe 2. So they will red-shirt him this year. Pettine is that stubborn to the point he would rather start a vet than a rook even if it meant he would go 0-16.

He is a defensive head coach and thinks he can beat you with running the ball and defense (which with all these defensive holding calls is an absolute joke). Why bother throwing the ball. Just eat up time and field position and maybe get 1 more FG than the opposing team.


He needs to have more smarts than that. I have no doubt Haslim is ok with dumping another Coach after one year.

Which scares me as we need to be patient


Yes we need to be patient. I can see certain things happening mostly Pettine thinking that he can beat you like the Ravens did in 2001 with Trent Dilfer.

He is of that mindset. We need to have long drives on offense (eat clock) and short drives on defense.

Doesn't say anything about scoring on those long offensive drives they just need to happen.


I think our running game is going to be able to help a lot with that. My fear is that defenses have tape on Hoyer now and that they are going to blow him up this year.

Also he is not stepping into his throws properly which will be because of his knee. He doesn't look near the QB that sparked us last year.

Which may partly be down to not getting all the first team reps. But he didn't get them last year till the week he became starter....


He doesn't trust the knee and is afraid to get hit. He is throwing the ball so quick that he doesn't get hit. He is skittish in the pocket because of that and will cost us games.


Yep. Reminds me of RG3 last season. Hopefully it reminds our OC of that to and he makes a case for starting Johnny instead.


I think Kyle wants to start Manziel. I think Pettine will override him and go with Hoyer. Hoyer fits what Pettine wants to do (run the ball and win with defense).
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 15342
Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
bosko1616 wrote:
Hoyer will start. Get crushed the first three games. Manziel will start after the bye week when the OL starts to jell and Gordon's suspension is over Wink


I doubt Manziel sees the field at all this season. Remember Pettine said he wants to be a run first offense and have a good defense.

You don't have a playmaking QB do that you stick in the guy that doesn't do much except not turn the ball over.

If Hoyer goes down I think they skip Manziel and go to Grossman. It seems they are going out of their way to not start Manziel.


That's not the feeling I get. I do think they will start Hoyer which I think is a mistake. I don't think Manziel will be number three.


I get the feeling everyone thinks he is at least a year away. Maybe 2. So they will red-shirt him this year. Pettine is that stubborn to the point he would rather start a vet than a rook even if it meant he would go 0-16.

He is a defensive head coach and thinks he can beat you with running the ball and defense (which with all these defensive holding calls is an absolute joke). Why bother throwing the ball. Just eat up time and field position and maybe get 1 more FG than the opposing team.


He needs to have more smarts than that. I have no doubt Haslim is ok with dumping another Coach after one year.

Which scares me as we need to be patient


Yes we need to be patient. I can see certain things happening mostly Pettine thinking that he can beat you like the Ravens did in 2001 with Trent Dilfer.

He is of that mindset. We need to have long drives on offense (eat clock) and short drives on defense.

Doesn't say anything about scoring on those long offensive drives they just need to happen.


I think our running game is going to be able to help a lot with that. My fear is that defenses have tape on Hoyer now and that they are going to blow him up this year.

Also he is not stepping into his throws properly which will be because of his knee. He doesn't look near the QB that sparked us last year.

Which may partly be down to not getting all the first team reps. But he didn't get them last year till the week he became starter....


He doesn't trust the knee and is afraid to get hit. He is throwing the ball so quick that he doesn't get hit. He is skittish in the pocket because of that and will cost us games.


Yep. Reminds me of RG3 last season. Hopefully it reminds our OC of that to and he makes a case for starting Johnny instead.


I think Kyle wants to start Manziel. I think Pettine will override him and go with Hoyer. Hoyer fits what Pettine wants to do (run the ball and win with defense).


Defense will always play with 8 men in the box against Hoyer because he does the one mississip throw. Eventually defenses will crowd the LOS and force Hoyer to go over the top, which he will do on occasion but not enough to back the defense up.
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Ether


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably ride hoyer into the season, both are atrocious but I feel like Hoyer gives us the best chance to win because he's giving our WRs better opportunities to make big plays.
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hornbybrown


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This iirc is Hoyers 6th trainning camp and at best he is looking at the same level as Manziel.

That for me is more than enough reason to name Manziel the starter.

Clearly has more upside or Hoyer with his years in the league would be looking the better of the two.
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LegendaryBrown


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
This iirc is Hoyers 6th trainning camp and at best he is looking at the same level as Manziel.

That for me is more than enough reason to name Manziel the starter.

Clearly has more upside or Hoyer with his years in the league would be looking the better of the two.



This cannot be accurately drawn from what we have seen. Shanahan is calling two different offenses for the QBs. Manziel is being given a similar bootleg/quick toss/zone read offense he had in college...and STILL looks lost.

Manziel came out after the game and said he felt nervous today like it was his first ever college game. That is quite literally the worst thing to hear from a guy that is known more than anything for his confidence.

Hoyer is the answer right now. He should, and likely will, get the first team reps, and lead us into the season as the starter. Manziel is simply not ready to play QB in the NFL. He faced a clear 8 man blitz at the line, and didn't adjust anything. He has no idea how to run an NFL offense.
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smh


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree. A starter need to be named.
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hornbybrown


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LegendaryBrown wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
This iirc is Hoyers 6th trainning camp and at best he is looking at the same level as Manziel.

That for me is more than enough reason to name Manziel the starter.

Clearly has more upside or Hoyer with his years in the league would be looking the better of the two.



This cannot be accurately drawn from what we have seen. Shanahan is calling two different offenses for the QBs. Manziel is being given a similar bootleg/quick toss/zone read offense he had in college...and STILL looks lost.

Manziel came out after the game and said he felt nervous today like it was his first ever college game. That is quite literally the worst thing to hear from a guy that is known more than anything for his confidence.

Hoyer is the answer right now. He should, and likely will, get the first team reps, and lead us into the season as the starter. Manziel is simply not ready to play QB in the NFL. He faced a clear 8 man blitz at the line, and didn't adjust anything. He has no idea how to run an NFL offense.


Yet somehow Hoyer looked worse.
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hornbybrown


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing Manziel needs to learn which I'm sure he will, He can scramble at this level but he cant run sideways like he did in college.

He looked great week one when he took off and ran up the middle. He doesn't have the speed for the sideways stuff. He will learn this he is a smart dude.
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LegendaryBrown


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
LegendaryBrown wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
This iirc is Hoyers 6th trainning camp and at best he is looking at the same level as Manziel.

That for me is more than enough reason to name Manziel the starter.

Clearly has more upside or Hoyer with his years in the league would be looking the better of the two.



This cannot be accurately drawn from what we have seen. Shanahan is calling two different offenses for the QBs. Manziel is being given a similar bootleg/quick toss/zone read offense he had in college...and STILL looks lost.

Manziel came out after the game and said he felt nervous today like it was his first ever college game. That is quite literally the worst thing to hear from a guy that is known more than anything for his confidence.

Hoyer is the answer right now. He should, and likely will, get the first team reps, and lead us into the season as the starter. Manziel is simply not ready to play QB in the NFL. He faced a clear 8 man blitz at the line, and didn't adjust anything. He has no idea how to run an NFL offense.


Yet somehow Hoyer looked worse.



By running an offense he's never run before, coming off an ACL injury, while having a rookie take first team reps away from him while the WRs are trying to learn two different playbooks so they can accommodate for said rookie's separate offense...

Yeah, I can see how this makes Hoyer look bad, but he certainly isn't worse.
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hornbybrown


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LegendaryBrown wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
LegendaryBrown wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
This iirc is Hoyers 6th trainning camp and at best he is looking at the same level as Manziel.

That for me is more than enough reason to name Manziel the starter.

Clearly has more upside or Hoyer with his years in the league would be looking the better of the two.



This cannot be accurately drawn from what we have seen. Shanahan is calling two different offenses for the QBs. Manziel is being given a similar bootleg/quick toss/zone read offense he had in college...and STILL looks lost.

Manziel came out after the game and said he felt nervous today like it was his first ever college game. That is quite literally the worst thing to hear from a guy that is known more than anything for his confidence.

Hoyer is the answer right now. He should, and likely will, get the first team reps, and lead us into the season as the starter. Manziel is simply not ready to play QB in the NFL. He faced a clear 8 man blitz at the line, and didn't adjust anything. He has no idea how to run an NFL offense.


Yet somehow Hoyer looked worse.



By running an offense he's never run before, coming off an ACL injury, while having a rookie take first team reps away from him while the WRs are trying to learn two different playbooks so they can accommodate for Manziel's separate offense...

Yeah, I can see how this makes Hoyer look bad, but he certainly isn't worse.


Yet you will hold it against a rookie for looking lost and no he is not running anywhere near the same system he ran in college.
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FLAbrownfan


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smh wrote:
I totally agree. A starter need to be named.


Yes, and that name should be Mr. Shaw
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LegendaryBrown


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
LegendaryBrown wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
LegendaryBrown wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
This iirc is Hoyers 6th trainning camp and at best he is looking at the same level as Manziel.

That for me is more than enough reason to name Manziel the starter.

Clearly has more upside or Hoyer with his years in the league would be looking the better of the two.



This cannot be accurately drawn from what we have seen. Shanahan is calling two different offenses for the QBs. Manziel is being given a similar bootleg/quick toss/zone read offense he had in college...and STILL looks lost.

Manziel came out after the game and said he felt nervous today like it was his first ever college game. That is quite literally the worst thing to hear from a guy that is known more than anything for his confidence.

Hoyer is the answer right now. He should, and likely will, get the first team reps, and lead us into the season as the starter. Manziel is simply not ready to play QB in the NFL. He faced a clear 8 man blitz at the line, and didn't adjust anything. He has no idea how to run an NFL offense.


Yet somehow Hoyer looked worse.



By running an offense he's never run before, coming off an ACL injury, while having a rookie take first team reps away from him while the WRs are trying to learn two different playbooks so they can accommodate for Manziel's separate offense...

Yeah, I can see how this makes Hoyer look bad, but he certainly isn't worse.


Yet you will hold it against a rookie for looking lost and no he is not running anywhere near the same system he ran in college.


Similar...not the same.

His strengths coming out of college are what Shanahan is tailoring Manziel's playbook to -- Bootleg, Quick Tosses, and Zone Read. (Only thing he's missing is improvisation)

What I'm holding against Manziel is that he has shown little to no confidence in himself (or his offense), and is quite apparently not mature enough to be a starting QB in the NFL.

What makes anyone confident that he will win us games as our starting QB? He has exciting potential?
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LegendaryBrown wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
This iirc is Hoyers 6th trainning camp and at best he is looking at the same level as Manziel.

That for me is more than enough reason to name Manziel the starter.

Clearly has more upside or Hoyer with his years in the league would be looking the better of the two.





Manziel came out after the game and said he felt nervous today like it was his first ever college game. That is quite literally the worst thing to hear from a guy that is known more than anything for his confidence.


Nope, the worst thing he could say is that is as good as I'll ever play. I felt comfortable and in the zone and that was the results.
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