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Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1130
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelers fans are funny sometimes.

Start a rookie and he struggles = He's a bust

Sit a rookie, let him learn the NFL ways, become a full time starter in year 3 (and kill it) = Our coaches are blind, how could they not play this guy.

I say that partly sarcastic, because I get it, I really do.

But can we just watch like 1 pre-season game before we start saying that the rookie defensive lineman should already be receiving reps over someone else, and getting mad at coaches because he isnt locked into the #1 spot on the depth cart?

Like, maybe just one quarter at least?
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 347
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
Steelers fans are funny sometimes.

Start a rookie and he struggles = He's a bust

Sit a rookie, let him learn the NFL ways, become a full time starter in year 3 (and kill it) = Our coaches are blind, how could they not play this guy.


No the worse is "He played part time his first three years and the last year of his rookie deal he finally plays well. Convenient for him." argument.

See Worilds, Jason
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49729
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
Steelers fans are funny sometimes.

Start a rookie and he struggles = He's a bust

Sit a rookie, let him learn the NFL ways, become a full time starter in year 3 (and kill it) = Our coaches are blind, how could they not play this guy.

I say that partly sarcastic, because I get it, I really do.

But can we just watch like 1 pre-season game before we start saying that the rookie defensive lineman should already be receiving reps over someone else, and getting mad at coaches because he isnt locked into the #1 spot on the depth cart?

Like, maybe just one quarter at least?


First off, most people who claim players are busts after one year are people who didnt like that player to begin with. Still foolish, but it is what it is.

Secondly, you are completely ignoring a key element in all of this. Its one thing to sit a rookie if they look like they need it. Its another to sit a rookie if they already look like the best option to start. The Steeler fans who said that about Heyward were pretty justified, especially by mid 2012 when it was pretty evident that Heyward was better than Ziggy Hood. However, at least then, we had an established vet in Keisel and the coaches had high hopes for Hood.

This is a different beast though. Heyward is the only proven quality DE on the roster. Cam Thomas has proven he has no business starting. Like I said earlier in the thread...if he proves during preseason he is the best option...so be it. I just hate when they hand jobs to inferior players just because they have this antiquated notion that rookies starting is a bad thing. Perhaps in a way it is...but not because it will hurt their development.

Bottom line...if Tuitt looks the best, he should start. Thats what Im knocking. Putting inferior players on the field just so a rookie can "sit back and learn".

"Learn by doing" is more effective.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49729
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warfelg wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
Steelers fans are funny sometimes.

Start a rookie and he struggles = He's a bust

Sit a rookie, let him learn the NFL ways, become a full time starter in year 3 (and kill it) = Our coaches are blind, how could they not play this guy.


No the worse is "He played part time his first three years and the last year of his rookie deal he finally plays well. Convenient for him." argument.

See Worilds, Jason


Except thats a very fair argument to make.
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Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1130
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
Steelers fans are funny sometimes.

Start a rookie and he struggles = He's a bust

Sit a rookie, let him learn the NFL ways, become a full time starter in year 3 (and kill it) = Our coaches are blind, how could they not play this guy.

I say that partly sarcastic, because I get it, I really do.

But can we just watch like 1 pre-season game before we start saying that the rookie defensive lineman should already be receiving reps over someone else, and getting mad at coaches because he isnt locked into the #1 spot on the depth cart?

Like, maybe just one quarter at least?


First off, most people who claim players are busts after one year are people who didnt like that player to begin with. Still foolish, but it is what it is.

Secondly, you are completely ignoring a key element in all of this. Its one thing to sit a rookie if they look like they need it. Its another to sit a rookie if they already look like the best option to start. The Steeler fans who said that about Heyward were pretty justified, especially by mid 2012 when it was pretty evident that Heyward was better than Ziggy Hood. However, at least then, we had an established vet in Keisel and the coaches had high hopes for Hood.

This is a different beast though. Heyward is the only proven quality DE on the roster. Cam Thomas has proven he has no business starting. Like I said earlier in the thread...if he proves during preseason he is the best option...so be it. I just hate when they hand jobs to inferior players just because they have this antiquated notion that rookies starting is a bad thing. Perhaps in a way it is...but not because it will hurt their development.

Bottom line...if Tuitt looks the best, he should start. Thats what Im knocking. Putting inferior players on the field just so a rookie can "sit back and learn".

"Learn by doing" is more effective.


Like i mentioned - I get it. But again, can we watch one game before crowing a rookie defensive lineman a starter, or even that he should see significant playing time over another guy?

I honestly think he will. I think you will see him in the rotation early on, but he is a rookie. He is going to have bad habits initially. He may be able to get pushed around because he is still learning NFL techniques. He may not have 100% of the playbook down and in Lebeaus system that is so critical.

He can come in a shine for two plays, but really have no clue whats he's doing - and we as fans dont know that. We dont see every snap in practice, we dont know the play calls, we dont see him in the classroom.

I love your quote at the end - i enjoy a better one Laughing

"Everyone learns faster on fire".

I honestly believe that, but its also a problem if they come in with holes in their game. Once your on tape - your on tape. NFL teams will destroy any weaknesses they can see, and they will do it often.

I think that's why you dont see the steelers rookie D-Line play early and often. Its such a technical position where you cant have small holes to the playbook or your technique. I think fans discount those little things that can set you in the longrun, for maybe 5 to 10 plays a game of success.

Im not saying that that's what made Heyward good, and i agree - he should have seen the field a little earlier than he did consistently. But whos to say that time to sit back learn and correct small technical issues isnt a big part of him being who he is today? He always had the motor and the body to succeed, but maybe actually taking in the game a little more has been a huge pay off for the future.

Additional Edit:

I do think we will see Tuitt start late in the year, and I think he gets significant time early - they say he is so far advance with his tech side of the position. But as of right now, and to start the season - if Cam Thomas isnt a complete bum, I start him off the bat, and use Tuitt in a rotation and situation periods.


Last edited by Dcash4 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 347
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
warfelg wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
Steelers fans are funny sometimes.

Start a rookie and he struggles = He's a bust

Sit a rookie, let him learn the NFL ways, become a full time starter in year 3 (and kill it) = Our coaches are blind, how could they not play this guy.


No the worse is "He played part time his first three years and the last year of his rookie deal he finally plays well. Convenient for him." argument.

See Worilds, Jason


Except thats a very fair argument to make.


It's borderline like Keenan Lewis to me. He was blocked by Woodley and Harrison. So he gets injury time play, and has his ups and downs. Finally plays full time and gets a rhythm and it's a contract year. I think the same thing goes for McFadden and Gay.

I guess my point is that it's coincidence when it happens once. When it's a pattern like we have it's a different problem.
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bigben07MVP


Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9390
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
warfelg wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
Steelers fans are funny sometimes.

Start a rookie and he struggles = He's a bust

Sit a rookie, let him learn the NFL ways, become a full time starter in year 3 (and kill it) = Our coaches are blind, how could they not play this guy.


No the worse is "He played part time his first three years and the last year of his rookie deal he finally plays well. Convenient for him." argument.

See Worilds, Jason


Except thats a very fair argument to make.


Your blind hatred for Worilds has always been entertaining Laughing
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2345
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
BenderRodriguez wrote:
Doubt very seriously they start 2-4, maybe 4-2.


While I agree completely with you, I'll the first to step up and say I have absolutely loved some of our defensive coaches, especially the one we might all agree holds the most important role on the defensive staff, however, the time has come and frankly has been at the station for a while, for certain members of our staff to retire and/or move on. The philosophy on defense has to change, seriously, and I'm not talking 3-4 vs. 4-3, I'm talking Talent vs. Veteran Status.

The goal shouldn't be to keep guys in their spot as long as possible, it should be to field the most talented team. Frankly, if that had been our goal, Cam Heyward would've been starting a long time ago, Chris Carter wouldn't be wasting a roster spot, Ziggy Hood would've been replaced some time ago (finally he has been) and they would take addressing the NT position much more seriously.

I can totally dig the influx of speed to our defense, hopefully next season, they bring an influx of strength, but I'm also hoping that next year, we're looking at a fresh blood in the defensive coaching staff..I'm just not getting my hopes up.



+1

The only problem is, what if the team does well this year? If they do well (whatever that is, for me that is SB only) why would they change? OTOH, maybe retire while on top?

The part of the philosophy that bothered me the most is not letting the young players start and more importantly drafting players that aren't suited for the scheme (Hood) in hopes you can force them to play this style. Why not draft players that already suit the scheme or get them in UFA?

I am looking forward to this season and have high expectations, but currently ROLB is a weakness. If jj is not the standard by mid season, bring back the standard if he is available. No way jj is as good as Deebo despite age and injuries, because what I saw last your in jj was more like a 5th round pick that couldn't rush the passer well at all. With only one good OLB pass rusher, it removes some flexibility /creativity for the D play calling.

btw, midseason would be the ravens game when they retire 75. Bringing back 92 should cause a similar response if the team need ROLB as bad as I think they will.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 347
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
BenderRodriguez wrote:
Doubt very seriously they start 2-4, maybe 4-2.


While I agree completely with you, I'll the first to step up and say I have absolutely loved some of our defensive coaches, especially the one we might all agree holds the most important role on the defensive staff, however, the time has come and frankly has been at the station for a while, for certain members of our staff to retire and/or move on. The philosophy on defense has to change, seriously, and I'm not talking 3-4 vs. 4-3, I'm talking Talent vs. Veteran Status.

The goal shouldn't be to keep guys in their spot as long as possible, it should be to field the most talented team. Frankly, if that had been our goal, Cam Heyward would've been starting a long time ago, Chris Carter wouldn't be wasting a roster spot, Ziggy Hood would've been replaced some time ago (finally he has been) and they would take addressing the NT position much more seriously.

I can totally dig the influx of speed to our defense, hopefully next season, they bring an influx of strength, but I'm also hoping that next year, we're looking at a fresh blood in the defensive coaching staff..I'm just not getting my hopes up.



+1

The only problem is, what if the team does well this year? If they do well (whatever that is, for me that is SB only) why would they change? OTOH, maybe retire while on top?

The part of the philosophy that bothered me the most is not letting the young players start and more importantly drafting players that aren't suited for the scheme (Hood) in hopes you can force them to play this style. Why not draft players that already suit the scheme or get them in UFA?

I am looking forward to this season and have high expectations, but currently ROLB is a weakness. If jj is not the standard by mid season, bring back the standard if he is available. No way jj is as good as Deebo despite age and injuries, because what I saw last your in jj was more like a 5th round pick that couldn't rush the passer well at all. With only one good OLB pass rusher, it removes some flexibility /creativity for the D play calling.

btw, midseason would be the ravens game when they retire 75. Bringing back 92 should cause a similar response if the team need ROLB as bad as I think they will.


I got high hopes for Jarvis this year. Stronger without taking away his athleticism. He's got a bull rush in the mix and developed a low swim/inside spin off the bull.

I think we saw last year too much thinking from Jarvis rather than just playing. And IMO it's why no rookies here ever really succeeded on defense. Such a complex scheme that it's hard to pick up and let instincts take over.

as for the Hood part I saw someone touch on:
Hood was and is a one gap DT/DE. Asking him to be a two gap controlling 3-4 DE was a mistake. It's more of a drafting/player problem than coaching.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 3917
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The coaches made the decision to keep Hood as the starter until almost half way through last season when it was clear he was a poor fit/not talented enough. That is the coaching issue.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
The coaches made the decision to keep Hood as the starter until almost half way through last season when it was clear he was a poor fit/not talented enough. That is the coaching issue.


True. It's a bit both I guess. Square peg round hole then the coaching staff used a hammer to try to make it fit.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49729
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigben07MVP wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
warfelg wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
Steelers fans are funny sometimes.

Start a rookie and he struggles = He's a bust

Sit a rookie, let him learn the NFL ways, become a full time starter in year 3 (and kill it) = Our coaches are blind, how could they not play this guy.


No the worse is "He played part time his first three years and the last year of his rookie deal he finally plays well. Convenient for him." argument.

See Worilds, Jason


Except thats a very fair argument to make.


Your blind hatred for Worilds has always been entertaining Laughing


As has your blind homerism.

And its pretty evident you dont even actually know what "blind hatred" is.

Blind hatred is when you just put down something without actually having any real reasoning to do so.

Countless times Ive pointed out exactly why I DIDNT like him, and up until last year, 90% of people were in agreement with most of what I said. And it wasnt just because he was behind Harrison and Woodley. He simply wasnt good his first 3 years. He showed flashes, and he may not have been Bruce Davis bad, but for a second round pick, he was a huge letdown. Weak against the run, couldnt shed blocks, most if not all of his pressures and sacks were uncontested or against RBs and TEs, and just looked lost on the field sometimes. If I was so wrong about this, Worlids wouldve been given the job outright after Harrison left. Instead, Worlids, going into his fourth year, was forced to compete with a rookie and was INITIALLY beat out by that rookie, even though that rookie wasnt looking great himself.

I even admitted Worlids gave me hope after the second half of last season. Im still not sold and he wasnt great...but that doesnt make me a blind hater. I wouldnt admit he improved if I was blindly hating. I think he could be a decent starter now if he keeps it up.

Let me know when youre actually able to adequately debate those points instead of just labeling me as a blind hater.
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bigben07MVP


Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lighten up buddy, I was just pointing out that when ever an opportunity to bash on Worilds comes, you jump all over it. There are players that certain members like and some that other don't. I personally have been a fan of Worilds and have seen flashes of great athletic ability and burst off the ball since his rookie year. I've always thought that when given a fair chance at significant playing time that he would make the most of it (which he did last season) I have always defended Worilds and you have always bashed him. I wasn't being condescending or being a "homer" (I would actually appreciate an explanation behind that insult). Last pre season actually, I was pointing out that Heyward looked less than impressive in the pre-season for a previous 1st round pick, you argued against me...and look who turned out to be right, you. I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong, and am certainly not a "homer." Unless that was just the first condescending insult you could come up with..
Confused
Also, I'm a bit confused as to why you think that the coaches giving a 1st round pick a fair shot at earning the starting job means that Worilds wasn't good? Did you forget that Worilds significantly outperformed JJ last year? You mention that Worilds looked bad early in his career, while I know for a fact that he didn't look as "lost" his first two seasons as Jarvis did last year.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I don't agree with 43's view, it was pretty standard. It's still very common (the not being sold part). Really, no one should be convinced that a guy with a partial season of success has turned a corner as a player. It's not as if he suddenly looked like a DMVP.

If the team had believed in Worilds last off-season, Jones wouldn't even have been drafted. It wasn't Woodley (despite his lackluster play of late) out there competing against Jones. The team obviously wasn't confident or expecting much from him.
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bigben07MVP


Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9390
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
While I don't agree with 43's view, it was pretty standard. It's still very common (the not being sold part). Really, no one should be convinced that a guy with a partial season of success has turned a corner as a player. It's not as if he suddenly looked like a DMVP.

If the team had believed in Worilds last off-season, Jones wouldn't even have been drafted. It wasn't Woodley (despite his lackluster play of late) out there competing against Jones. The team obviously wasn't confident or expecting much from him.


Good Point.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that Worilds has turned the corner just yet. This season (assuming he stays healthy) will be huge for him, which is why I am expecting even bigger things.
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