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Ray Rice Suspension
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:

My own personal view will always be that it's moronic to suspend guys for off the field stuff. It's double jeopardy.


This part makes no sense at all.

Even if you dont think they should be suspended, calling it "moronic" is..well..."moronic" in its own right.

Double jeopardy? Hope this wasnt serious. One is a court of law...one is an employer. Employers have the right to enforce their own policies for illegal actions regardless of what a court of law does.

Quote:
But if it's going to happen, it would be nice if it at least made sense.


I completely agree with this, though.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Double jeopardy? Hope this wasnt serious. One is a court of law...one is an employer. Employers have the right to enforce their own policies for illegal actions regardless of what a court of law does.


Yup, they do. And it's hypocritical. It creates different standards of justice and repercussions. Private employers are free to do as they please in my book, but that doesn't mean I'm going to support it. Call me crazy, but I believe the legal system is there to deal with criminal offenses, and people are too quick to rush in and pile on. It's also amazing how many of those people live in glass houses.

What Rice did has nothing to do with his ability on the football field or his ability to produce on it. The clamoring for punishment for athletes comes from, in my view, resentments and typical reactionary judgements people make. There is no need for me to involve myself in the personal life of these players as a fan.

If the strongest argument on the side of extra punishment boils down to the 'for the childrenz' defense, you have a weak argument, if you ask me. And that's really the best anyone can have because it's ridiculous for grown men watching a sport to whine how it's a privilege etc. to be in the NFL. There's no rationality behind it.

So, in this issue my complaint is more with people in general. I understand entirely why the NFL does it. But that reason in itself is unjust and empty.
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JDLefebvre


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:
Double jeopardy? Hope this wasnt serious. One is a court of law...one is an employer. Employers have the right to enforce their own policies for illegal actions regardless of what a court of law does.


Yup, they do. And it's hypocritical. It creates different standards of justice and repercussions. Private employers are free to do as they please in my book, but that doesn't mean I'm going to support it. Call me crazy, but I believe the legal system is there to deal with criminal offenses, and people are too quick to rush in and pile on. It's also amazing how many of those people live in glass houses.

What Rice did has nothing to do with his ability on the football field or his ability to produce on it. The clamoring for punishment for athletes comes from, in my view, resentments and typical reactionary judgements people make. There is no need for me to involve myself in the personal life of these players as a fan.

If the strongest argument on the side of extra punishment boils down to the 'for the childrenz' defense, you have a weak argument, if you ask me. And that's really the best anyone can have because it's ridiculous for grown men watching a sport to whine how it's a privilege etc. to be in the NFL. There's no rationality behind it.

So, in this issue my complaint is more with people in general. I understand entirely why the NFL does it. But that reason in itself is unjust and empty.



Lol double jeopardy!!!! Laughing


It is certainly not double jeopardy! The legal system and your employers standards or rules have nothing to do with one another.

People in the military commit a crime and are punished legally also receive administrative punishment from their branch of service. Also not double jeopardy.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

People in the military commit a crime and are punished legally also receive administrative punishment from their branch of service. Also not double jeopardy.


Military members also have to give up various civil liberties when they join. UCMJ is an entirely different concept from personal conduct policies employers use. The military is NOT a standard employer. It's not even typical of government employment, and that's what the laws reflect.

Beyond that, military standards have a funny way of fluctuating based on circumstances. I know you are active duty - but I don't know too many people who have served who think UCMJ is a fair and just system. Not so much because of double jeopardy as things that are really beyond the scope of this forum (if this whole conversation isn't already way past that). It's not a good example regardless.

Quote:

It is certainly not double jeopardy! The legal system and your employers standards or rules have nothing to do with one another.


You know, I'm not going to argue semantics. My point was pretty clear. Society as a whole is way too eager to point fingers and ask for extra punishment for people on top of the already heavy handed criminal justice system. The only basis they have for this is their own arbitrary and random moral indignation.

Such and such player did something I don't like, so they should lose the right to play football for a living...

Sorry, that's not a sound or fair argument to me.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Yup, they do. And it's hypocritical. It creates different standards of justice and repercussions. Private employers are free to do as they please in my book, but that doesn't mean I'm going to support it. Call me crazy, but I believe the legal system is there to deal with criminal offenses, and people are too quick to rush in and pile on. It's also amazing how many of those people live in glass houses.


Hypocritical? How?

No, it doesnt create different standards at all. That doesnt even make sense.

Seriously, some of your logic is beyond ridiculous.

Quote:
What Rice did has nothing to do with his ability on the football field or his ability to produce on it.


lulwut?

Why are you dragging ability into this? Ability to do a job has ZERO bearing on the nature or severity of a punishment for breaking a rule.

Quote:
The clamoring for punishment for athletes comes from, in my view, resentments and typical reactionary judgements people make. There is no need for me to involve myself in the personal life of these players as a fan.


Good for you.

Fans opinions dont even matter in regards to punishments, so again, its irrelevant to the actual topic.

Beyond what fans think, it doesnt change the fact that he broke a law and violated a league rule. Acting like they should be mutually exclusive is laughably stupid.

Quote:
If the strongest argument on the side of extra punishment boils down to the 'for the childrenz' defense, you have a weak argument, if you ask me.


Its not EXTRA punishment.

He broke a law and broke a league rule....and thus, deserves to be and will be punished on both sides.

Its not hard to understand.

Quote:
And that's really the best anyone can have because it's ridiculous for grown men watching a sport to whine how it's a privilege etc. to be in the NFL. There's no rationality behind it.


And you think YOUR whining about THEIR whining is any better?

And once again, what do fans opinions have to do with the punishments being doled out?

The entire "privilege" thing is irrelevant.

He broke a law, and deserves to be punished for it.

He violated a league policy, and deserves to be punished for it.

You dont have to agree with it, but that doesnt mean its wrong or doesnt make sense.

Quote:
So, in this issue my complaint is more with people in general. I understand entirely why the NFL does it. But that reason in itself is unjust and empty.


So youre boohooing about peoples opinions on the matter, even though they are completely irrelevant to actual punishments themselves?

Okay.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
You know, I'm not going to argue semantics.


Hard to argue semantics when you dont even understand what double jeopardy actually is.

And no...you really dont.

Quote:
My point was pretty clear. Society as a whole is way too eager to point fingers and ask for extra punishment for people on top of the already heavy handed criminal justice system. The only basis they have for this is their own arbitrary and random moral indignation.


Dear lord.

In a case such as this, its not even so much that people WANT the extra punishment. Most just think some of these suspensions make no sense relative to other ones....such as a player who was PROVEN guilty and CHARGED for assaulting a woman getting two games while a player who was merely accused of it being suspended for FOUR.

Punishments for breaking the rule make total sense, but the severity of each punishment on a case by case basis does not. If anything, its being more critical of the system doling out the punishment than the actual punishment itself.


Quote:
Such and such player did something I don't like, so they should lose the right to play football for a living...


No.

"Such and such a player broke a rule, and should be punished accordingly"

Pretty simple...for most people.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

"Such and such a player broke a rule, and should be punished accordingly"


He broke a LAW, and that is up to the criminal justice system.

Can you actually tell me what rule Rice broke? The personal conduct policy is vague and enforced arbitrarily. You've said as much in here. There is no hard and fast rule for NFL players on this.

Players have been charged and convicted of domestic violence with no consequences from the league. Others have been punished. Ergo, it's hypocritical and arbitrary.

Beyond that, my argument is much simpler than this. The NFL has no good reason to involve itself in off field matters that have no actual impact on the on field product.

Quote:
And once again, what do fans opinions have to do with the punishments being doled out?


See above. Fan and media outrage is THE single largest factor which drives these suspensions. Goodell admitted as much when he suspended Roethlisberger. 'Damaging the shield' (his words) is not a rule. It's a randomly applied standard to behavior that is in part determined by many factors outside the control of the player.

Quote:
He broke a law, and deserves to be punished for it.


He was - by the criminal justice system. And the criminal justice system isn't typically made up as you go along like the NFL's conduct policy. The legal system has precedent. Despite its flaws, there is some consistency to it. It's systematized.

The league hands out punishments randomly as has already been established. No player can say for sure what will get them punished with regards to the conduct policy. If Rice weren't caught on camera, odds are he isn't suspended at all.

Quote:


He violated a league policy, and deserves to be punished for it.


A poorly defined and highly arbitrary policy that can be applied whenever the league decides it wants to as your own comments on the length of this suspension show...

Quote:

Why are you dragging ability into this? Ability to do a job has ZERO bearing on the nature or severity of a punishment for breaking a rule.


Absolute utter nonsense. First off, there are two different levels to this argument. One is MY OPINION that these rules and efforts by the league are stupid and reactionary. If you want to argue that some rule exists so a player who violated it should be punished, that's really a separate argument. I'm talking about my disagreement with the rule itself. You are focused on the punishment and haven't really acknowledged why the rule is necessary or useful to the league's purpose. Now, we all know why, but it would blatantly contradict what you just said about fans having nothing to do with the punishments. PR is the reason punishments are given out, and the reason they are so arbitrary. It's also why there is no clear standard of behavior by which a player gets punished.

So, my opinion is that the league exists to make money, and they make money by putting the best product on the field. The best product is a result of having the best talent. These statements are self-evident and widely accepted, I'd say.

Now, the counter argument is that bad PR will in some way drive off fans and thus hurt the bottom line. Only, I've never seen much evidence of that. The closest thing I can think of would be in the NBA with some of the issues that plagued Portland/Indiana at one point, though that's a pretty weak argument if we examined those two cases closely enough. Fans supported those teams when they were winning.

Despite protests, the Eagles didn't suffer from the presence of Vick who was despised. Same with Ben and the Steelers.

So, reaciontary fans bitched about players getting arrested (specifically the Bengals and Pacman Jones). Goodell came on and took the tough guy approach instantly in response. This was done despite no evidence that the bottom line was actually going to be impacted.

The league doesn't really care, though. They are going to make their money. None of this has anything to do with justice, rules, or anything else. It's about the NFL's bottom line. They'd rather not even risk the anger of the fans who scream the loudest. It's easier just to hand out punishments here and there they can point to as evidence that they care.
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