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big poppa pump


Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 1911
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:


Then how did Colin Kaepernick take over as a starter when Alex Smith had over a 100 passer rating and they were in the midst of a playoff push?


Injury.

You made my point for me...Kaep never would've gotten in without the injury. Now this was also quite different because both QB's seemed capable of taking SF to the SB. Even to this day, it's not clear cut which of those QB's is better right now. Kaep has more potential, but Alex isn't Hoyer...he was a #1 overall pick and while it's clear now he shouldn't have been, he now has shown he was a legit 1st round talent.

There was also no preseason QB competition for SF in 2012. Alex was clearly ahead at that point. So, I don't see the comparison.


You've made my point.

Each situation is unique. You ask would Wilson be Wilson had he not had the chance to start at the beginning of last year.

I can argue would Rodgers be Rodgers had he not sat and learned behind Favre?

The answer to all the what ifs is we do not know.

It is up to the coaching staff to decide who gives them the chance to win NOW. We can't say for fact that if they believe that is Hoyer, that it will somehow stunt Manziel's future growth.
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mistakebytehlak


Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 45826
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big poppa pump wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:


Then how did Colin Kaepernick take over as a starter when Alex Smith had over a 100 passer rating and they were in the midst of a playoff push?


Injury.

You made my point for me...Kaep never would've gotten in without the injury. Now this was also quite different because both QB's seemed capable of taking SF to the SB. Even to this day, it's not clear cut which of those QB's is better right now. Kaep has more potential, but Alex isn't Hoyer...he was a #1 overall pick and while it's clear now he shouldn't have been, he now has shown he was a legit 1st round talent.

There was also no preseason QB competition for SF in 2012. Alex was clearly ahead at that point. So, I don't see the comparison.


You've made my point.

Each situation is unique. You ask would Wilson be Wilson had he not had the chance to start at the beginning of last year.

I can argue would Rodgers be Rodgers had he not sat and learned behind Favre?

The answer to all the what ifs is we do not know.

It is up to the coaching staff to decide who gives them the chance to win NOW. We can't say for fact that if they believe that is Hoyer, that it will somehow stunt Manziel's future growth.


and the other side for fact cant say that it will greatly improve manziel's chances at surviving, especially when recent evidence at the QB position shows those that started succeeded and those that sat because they werent ready were just bad quarterbacks
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BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1554
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
even the browns are making their players write things down instead of just reading them...

passive learning doesnt work for some.


My point was that you were speaking in absolutes, as in "it's impossible to learn without doing" which just isn't the case. It helps to do, and have experience, and passive learning doesn't work well for some... I 100% agree with you on that, but to say no learning can be had at all without actually doing I think is disingenuous.
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big poppa pump


Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 1911
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:


Then how did Colin Kaepernick take over as a starter when Alex Smith had over a 100 passer rating and they were in the midst of a playoff push?


Injury.

You made my point for me...Kaep never would've gotten in without the injury. Now this was also quite different because both QB's seemed capable of taking SF to the SB. Even to this day, it's not clear cut which of those QB's is better right now. Kaep has more potential, but Alex isn't Hoyer...he was a #1 overall pick and while it's clear now he shouldn't have been, he now has shown he was a legit 1st round talent.

There was also no preseason QB competition for SF in 2012. Alex was clearly ahead at that point. So, I don't see the comparison.


You've made my point.

Each situation is unique. You ask would Wilson be Wilson had he not had the chance to start at the beginning of last year.

I can argue would Rodgers be Rodgers had he not sat and learned behind Favre?

The answer to all the what ifs is we do not know.

It is up to the coaching staff to decide who gives them the chance to win NOW. We can't say for fact that if they believe that is Hoyer, that it will somehow stunt Manziel's future growth.


and the other side for fact cant say that it will greatly improve manziel's chances at surviving, especially when recent evidence at the QB position shows those that started succeeded and those that sat because they werent ready were just bad quarterbacks


I am not discounting ANYTHING.....I just refuse to speak in absolutes saying that 1 way works better than the other. I believe that Manziel is the better qb and would like to see him start. If the coaching staff feels Hoyer currently gives them a better chance to win, they should absolutely start him.

Why does it matter who gets the first team reps? The talent should speak for itself and if it takes longer for johnny to overtake hoyer in the coaching staffs eyes, who cares?

I am willing to let this staff make that decision and be good with it.
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ArrowheadRage58


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big poppa pump wrote:

It is up to the coaching staff to decide who gives them the chance to win NOW. We can't say for fact that if they believe that is Hoyer, that it will somehow stunt Manziel's future growth.


I never said it would stunt his growth. If Hoyer is the clear cut guy right now, then he should start....Manziel would be fine when his time comes. The issue is I don't see any way you could say "Hoyer is clearly ahead".
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big poppa pump


Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 1911
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:

It is up to the coaching staff to decide who gives them the chance to win NOW. We can't say for fact that if they believe that is Hoyer, that it will somehow stunt Manziel's future growth.


I never said it would stunt his growth. If Hoyer is the clear cut guy right now, then he should start....Manziel would be fine when his time comes. The issue is I don't see any way you could say "Hoyer is clearly ahead".


I have never said Hoyer was clearly ahead and neither has the staff. The point you made, and one that I understand completely, is to give the ball to Johnny if it's close.

I can get with this logic, however, I still believe they should play the guy who they think will win more games now. If that's jf....cool....if its hoyer....cool
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mistakebytehlak


Joined: 20 Nov 2005
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BwickBrownie wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
even the browns are making their players write things down instead of just reading them...

passive learning doesnt work for some.


My point was that you were speaking in absolutes, as in "it's impossible to learn without doing" which just isn't the case. It helps to do, and have experience, and passive learning doesn't work well for some... I 100% agree with you on that, but to say no learning can be had at all without actually doing I think is disingenuous.


really not interested in semantics battle so sure, agreed
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BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1554
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
BwickBrownie wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
even the browns are making their players write things down instead of just reading them...

passive learning doesnt work for some.


My point was that you were speaking in absolutes, as in "it's impossible to learn without doing" which just isn't the case. It helps to do, and have experience, and passive learning doesn't work well for some... I 100% agree with you on that, but to say no learning can be had at all without actually doing I think is disingenuous.


really not interested in semantics battle so sure, agreed


I guess I could say that it's not merely semantics when you propose that it's impossible for Manziel to learn on the bench, but instead I'll leave you with this picture...


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nugpimpen


Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 21518
Location: 10 Miles South of Cleveland
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple things here...


1. I hate how Manziel missing a 5 minute meeting because he forgot, is a leading story on ESPN.

2. Why the hell did the Browns even leak that? Nothing else has been leaked.

3. The answer to #2 is because they have been set on Hoyer starting the whole time and have only called it a competition to appease the fans and not have their heads bitten off.

This was never Manziels job to win

I think their plan is to play Hoyer till the bye week. If we win a few games and he looks decent? They will keep him in

If he blows up and we lose all those games? They bring in Manziel and allow him to miss the brutal first 3 games we have.


It's science
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kjmercer17


Joined: 25 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I LIKE THE ORANGE UNIS!!!!!!
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KamTrus20


Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 5441
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desmond Bryant could miss significant time with wrist injury.

This is a huge huge loss imo. It is a much bigger blow to the defense than many will be willing to admit. He was performing at an elite level run defender before his heart issues last year.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KamTrus20 wrote:
Desmond Bryant could miss significant time with wrist injury.

This is a huge huge loss imo. It is a much bigger blow to the defense than many will be willing to admit. He was performing at an elite level run defender before his heart issues last year.


Tis true. He also penetrated pretty well on passing downs.

I think Winn can keep up on passing downs but I don't think he is near the run defender as Bryant.
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hornbybrown


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was another all in brawl at camp today.

I don't mind a bit of pushing and shoving. I do mind hearing that Joe Thomas ended up buried at the bottom of it. It's in that kind of thing he could come out with a busted knee.

The whole team was made to do sprints after
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freakygeniuskid


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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
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Location: Charlotte, NC
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
KamTrus20 wrote:
Desmond Bryant could miss significant time with wrist injury.

This is a huge huge loss imo. It is a much bigger blow to the defense than many will be willing to admit. He was performing at an elite level run defender before his heart issues last year.


Tis true. He also penetrated pretty well on passing downs.

I think Winn can keep up on passing downs but I don't think he is near the run defender as Bryant.


Thankfully we've got fantastic depth with Rubin, Taylor, Winn, Hughes, and other Bryant. It'll definitely be a blow if he does though.
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DawgX


Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KamTrus20 wrote:
Desmond Bryant could miss significant time with wrist injury.

This is a huge huge loss imo. It is a much bigger blow to the defense than many will be willing to admit. He was performing at an elite level run defender before his heart issues last year.


That will suck if he's out for a significant amount of time. Fortunately, Winn and Hughes are good enough to start on many teams in the league, but they're still not as good as Bryant.
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