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BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1403
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

BooyaCS wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:


Im sorry that I think Manziel is more talented than him, Hoyer has had a lackluster career, he has not done anything in his career for me to say he should most definitely be starting


I'm not going to say Johnny is better than Hoyer currently but I do believe that if he sits back and learns the system and the speed of the pros he will be better in time. I just don't want to ruin him by throwing him in the fire too soon.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


You learn nothing by sitting.


Rolling Eyes

If one can't learn without doing something himself, then
A. You have a bad teacher or
B. You're a bad student
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'14 ADOPT A BROWN(S)
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TRAVIS BENJAMIN stats: 4 receptions for 69 yards. 1 Touchdown. Please no more punt returns.
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bulldog


Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 5838
Location: Salem
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:
once again Brian Hoyer beat a Vikings team that was statistically the worst secondary in the NFL and a Bengals team whose Secondary had been devastated by Injury


This is so irritating to see over and over again.

He also had a game winning drive, 2 min drive before halftime, a fresh off the street Willis McGahee (even worse than trich), a fresh back to the game Gordon(who many on here wanted to trade at that time), and O'Neil cousins at RG. He also had a fan base that had pretty much given up on the season already and had media outlets posting headlines that the whole team was up for trade. The FO basically said "No pressure brian, but here you go. We wish you the best of luck"

The guy had two missed throws the other night and that's all any on here have to hold against him. He also had the two best throws that were dropped. To say johnny has outplayed or deserves to be the starter at this point is blind man love for johnny.


Exactly. There was no pressure. Nobody expected anything. good point.

And yeah...2 missed throws that should be made by a vet...it wasn't because of pressure and it wasn't cuz he's coming off an injury...just bad throws. His 6/14 was legit...players drop passes, it happened to Johnny.


It's fine to ignore the majority of a post and highlight a section of it, take it out of context, and try and prove your point with it.

Johnny missed throws too. Easy ones. He made some good ones too. But brian had the best two throws. Johnny also two very stupid runs. His legs are of much of a hindrance as they are helpful at this point.
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bigben07MVP


Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9418
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

BwickBrownie wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:


Im sorry that I think Manziel is more talented than him, Hoyer has had a lackluster career, he has not done anything in his career for me to say he should most definitely be starting


I'm not going to say Johnny is better than Hoyer currently but I do believe that if he sits back and learns the system and the speed of the pros he will be better in time. I just don't want to ruin him by throwing him in the fire too soon.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


You learn nothing by sitting.


Rolling Eyes

If one can't learn without doing something himself, then
A. You have a bad teacher or
B. You're a bad student


Learning by repetition/not repeating mistakes>>>sitting

There is going to be a learning curve regardless of if he starts now or starts in week 8. After watching Manziel in the pre season game, I firmly believe that he will be a star in the league one day. Dude has an arm, great field vision, and can make tacklers miss in the open field. The thing he needs to work on is confidence (ironically), look receivers off, and decision making. The best way to approve in these three phases is repitions. I will be SHOCKED if Manziel isn't the week 1 starter and Browns fans have a lot to be excited about. This is all coming from a Steelers fan keep in mind.

Only thing I will say is the kid had a lot maturing to do before he can lead the Browns to the playoffs and further.
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BooyaCS


Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 7517
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

bigben07MVP wrote:
BwickBrownie wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:


Im sorry that I think Manziel is more talented than him, Hoyer has had a lackluster career, he has not done anything in his career for me to say he should most definitely be starting


I'm not going to say Johnny is better than Hoyer currently but I do believe that if he sits back and learns the system and the speed of the pros he will be better in time. I just don't want to ruin him by throwing him in the fire too soon.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


You learn nothing by sitting.


Rolling Eyes

If one can't learn without doing something himself, then
A. You have a bad teacher or
B. You're a bad student


Learning by repetition/not repeating mistakes>>>sitting

There is going to be a learning curve regardless of if he starts now or starts in week 8. After watching Manziel in the pre season game, I firmly believe that he will be a star in the league one day. Dude has an arm, great field vision, and can make tacklers miss in the open field. The thing he needs to work on is confidence (ironically), look receivers off, and decision making. The best way to approve in these three phases is repitions. I will be SHOCKED if Manziel isn't the week 1 starter and Browns fans have a lot to be excited about. This is all coming from a Steelers fan keep in mind.

Only thing I will say is the kid had a lot maturing to do before he can lead the Browns to the playoffs and further.


I tend to agree that the confidence issue is what is holding Manziel back. The reason he never had a playbook before. I liked the fact he took snaps under center and didn't look all that lost.

The main issue I see is Pettine wanting to Start Hoyer to the detriment of the team.
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mistakebytehlak


Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 45095
Location: Brooklyn, NY
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

BwickBrownie wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:


Im sorry that I think Manziel is more talented than him, Hoyer has had a lackluster career, he has not done anything in his career for me to say he should most definitely be starting


I'm not going to say Johnny is better than Hoyer currently but I do believe that if he sits back and learns the system and the speed of the pros he will be better in time. I just don't want to ruin him by throwing him in the fire too soon.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


You learn nothing by sitting.


Rolling Eyes

If one can't learn without doing something himself, then
A. You have a bad teacher or
B. You're a bad student


or someone doesnt learn by passively watching...
experience is key
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ditchdigger


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 16732
Location: Gahanna, OH
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

bigben07MVP wrote:
Only thing I will say is the kid had a lot maturing to do before he can lead the Browns to the playoffs and further.


Ben was still picking up/preying on college chicks after he won two Super Bowls.

Maturity and success are not mutually exclusive.
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BwickBrownie wrote:
looks like Ditch's infinite wisdom is correct again.
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bigben07MVP


Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9418
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

ditchdigger wrote:
bigben07MVP wrote:
Only thing I will say is the kid had a lot maturing to do before he can lead the Browns to the playoffs and further.


Ben was still picking up/preying on college chicks after he won two Super Bowls.

Maturity and success are not mutually exclusive.


Sorry, I didn't mean maturity in his off the field life. Originally his off the field antics are why I thought he would bust but since TC has started we haven't heard a peep about off the field stuff and you can tell he is 100% focused on football.

I was talking about maturing as a quarterback aka reading defenses, calling audibles, getting comfortable taking snaps under center, improve decision making, master the play book, lookoff receivers. Those are the aspects I feel he has the most room to improve in.
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 6903
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
BwickBrownie wrote:
I'm not sure there is anything constructive I can add to this argument that I didn't already say to Mistake yesterday afternoon, so I'll just be on my way...

... this article was posted in the Wall Street Journall yesterday, and I thought it was pretty neat. Not sure if it's just a gimmick that won't seem to translate into wins, or if it's really helping our defense learn quicker, but I still like that Pettine is at least thinking critically and putting effort into making the Browns the best team he can, by any means he can.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-cleveland-browns-strategy-write-this-down-1407795873

(I figured the TC thread was appropriate to post this in, seeing as how it deals with studying and learning techniques in training camp)


honestly, i know for me this is 100% true. if i write something down i will learn it if i just read it i will forget it nearly instantly.


Agree, which is ok because it's not about football.

Also believe that retention is better reading hard copy (vs. Electronic).

Think it's got something to do with involving another sense.
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BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1403
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
BwickBrownie wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
Mastercheddaar wrote:
Dawgpoun8017 wrote:


Im sorry that I think Manziel is more talented than him, Hoyer has had a lackluster career, he has not done anything in his career for me to say he should most definitely be starting


I'm not going to say Johnny is better than Hoyer currently but I do believe that if he sits back and learns the system and the speed of the pros he will be better in time. I just don't want to ruin him by throwing him in the fire too soon.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


You learn nothing by sitting.


Rolling Eyes

If one can't learn without doing something himself, then
A. You have a bad teacher or
B. You're a bad student


or someone doesnt learn by passively watching...
experience is key


I suppose it is a possibility that someone has such limited intelligence that he isn't bright enough to learn without doing it himself, but if that's the case with anyone playing QB for the Browns, then I think they should be cut immediately. Hours of watching tape of previous offensive schemes and reading the playbook before implementation would have already been wasted.

In general, I love how this conversation has devolved into hyperbole. A statement is made about developing on the bench and now it's being proposed that that's impossible just because? Why not just say Manziel's growth would be stunted by being on the bench and argue this position, instead making a silly claim like how impossible it is to learn without doing something (see bolded above)? At least then an honest point/counterpoint could take place...something that makes FF fun to come to and post on... instead of you trying to shout the other side into submission.
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'14 ADOPT A BROWN(S)
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TRAVIS BENJAMIN stats: 4 receptions for 69 yards. 1 Touchdown. Please no more punt returns.
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big poppa pump


Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 1837
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see why the Browns HAVE to start Manziel just for the sake of getting experience. When a coach says they will start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, that's what they mean, and that's what they should do. If the staff thinks that Hoyer is even slightly ahead of Manziel when the season begins, then that's who they should start.

There isn't one particular way that a QB grows and improves.

There are plenty of QB's that have come off the bench either because of injury, or the starter not playing well, or having passed the starter by becoming better in practice.

Throwing jf out there, just for the sake of getting him experience is not necessarily what's best for his growth, and more importantly, the team. Some qb's do better watching and learning, while others may improve by going out there and playing through their mistakes.

To say either method is better than the other is simply not true. Neither Johnny, nor Hoyer should start for the sake of starting, or sit for the sake of sitting.

If Johnny is the qb that gives us the best chance to win week 1, he should start.....if it's not till week 8, then it should be then......if not till next year.....so be it.
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BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big poppa pump wrote:
I don't see why the Browns HAVE to start Manziel just for the sake of getting experience. When a coach says they will start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, that's what they mean, and that's what they should do. If the staff thinks that Hoyer is even slightly ahead of Manziel when the season begins, then that's who they should start.

There isn't one particular way that a QB grows and improves.

There are plenty of QB's that have come off the bench either because of injury, or the starter not playing well, or having passed the starter by becoming better in practice.

Throwing jf out there, just for the sake of getting him experience is not necessarily what's best for his growth, and more importantly, the team. Some qb's do better watching and learning, while others may improve by going out there and playing through their mistakes.

To say either method is better than the other is simply not true. Neither Johnny, nor Hoyer should start for the sake of starting, or sit for the sake of sitting.

If Johnny is the qb that gives us the best chance to win week 1, he should start.....if it's not till week 8, then it should be then......if not till next year.....so be it.




Well said sir
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'14 ADOPT A BROWN(S)
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TRAVIS BENJAMIN stats: 4 receptions for 69 yards. 1 Touchdown. Please no more punt returns.
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BooyaCS


Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 7517
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big poppa pump wrote:
I don't see why the Browns HAVE to start Manziel just for the sake of getting experience. When a coach says they will start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, that's what they mean, and that's what they should do. If the staff thinks that Hoyer is even slightly ahead of Manziel when the season begins, then that's who they should start.

There isn't one particular way that a QB grows and improves.

There are plenty of QB's that have come off the bench either because of injury, or the starter not playing well, or having passed the starter by becoming better in practice.

Throwing jf out there, just for the sake of getting him experience is not necessarily what's best for his growth, and more importantly, the team. Some qb's do better watching and learning, while others may improve by going out there and playing through their mistakes.

To say either method is better than the other is simply not true. Neither Johnny, nor Hoyer should start for the sake of starting, or sit for the sake of sitting.

If Johnny is the qb that gives us the best chance to win week 1, he should start.....if it's not till week 8, then it should be then......if not till next year.....so be it.


I don't think the staff believes Hoyer gives them the best chance to win. I think Pettine is too afraid to start a rookie and will start Hoyer regardless.
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big poppa pump


Joined: 20 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BooyaCS wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
I don't see why the Browns HAVE to start Manziel just for the sake of getting experience. When a coach says they will start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, that's what they mean, and that's what they should do. If the staff thinks that Hoyer is even slightly ahead of Manziel when the season begins, then that's who they should start.

There isn't one particular way that a QB grows and improves.

There are plenty of QB's that have come off the bench either because of injury, or the starter not playing well, or having passed the starter by becoming better in practice.

Throwing jf out there, just for the sake of getting him experience is not necessarily what's best for his growth, and more importantly, the team. Some qb's do better watching and learning, while others may improve by going out there and playing through their mistakes.

To say either method is better than the other is simply not true. Neither Johnny, nor Hoyer should start for the sake of starting, or sit for the sake of sitting.

If Johnny is the qb that gives us the best chance to win week 1, he should start.....if it's not till week 8, then it should be then......if not till next year.....so be it.


I don't think the staff believes Hoyer gives them the best chance to win. I think Pettine is too afraid to start a rookie and will start Hoyer regardless.


That doesn't make much sense. If you are proposing that there is turmoil within the coaching staff, then I suppose it could be true.

Why would Pettine not start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, regardless if that guy is a rookie?
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BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big poppa pump wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
I don't see why the Browns HAVE to start Manziel just for the sake of getting experience. When a coach says they will start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, that's what they mean, and that's what they should do. If the staff thinks that Hoyer is even slightly ahead of Manziel when the season begins, then that's who they should start.

There isn't one particular way that a QB grows and improves.

There are plenty of QB's that have come off the bench either because of injury, or the starter not playing well, or having passed the starter by becoming better in practice.

Throwing jf out there, just for the sake of getting him experience is not necessarily what's best for his growth, and more importantly, the team. Some qb's do better watching and learning, while others may improve by going out there and playing through their mistakes.

To say either method is better than the other is simply not true. Neither Johnny, nor Hoyer should start for the sake of starting, or sit for the sake of sitting.

If Johnny is the qb that gives us the best chance to win week 1, he should start.....if it's not till week 8, then it should be then......if not till next year.....so be it.


I don't think the staff believes Hoyer gives them the best chance to win. I think Pettine is too afraid to start a rookie and will start Hoyer regardless.


That doesn't make much sense. If you are proposing that there is turmoil within the coaching staff, then I suppose it could be true.

Why would Pettine not start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, regardless if that guy is a rookie?


I understand the concern... other Browns coaches have simply wanted to start veterans, whether it was out of a sense of loyalty, feeling like veterans had "earned it" more, not wanting to give rookies a sense of entitlement, or feeling like even if a rookie was better, being experienced gave the other player an intangible leg up.

I guess all I would point to is Pettine's willingness to play other rookies as starters, like Bitonio and possibly Gilbert and Kirksey. I don't get the Crennel / Mangini vibe from Pettine, and when he says every spot is open to best player, I really think he means that regardless of time played in the NFL.
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'14 ADOPT A BROWN(S)
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TRAVIS BENJAMIN stats: 4 receptions for 69 yards. 1 Touchdown. Please no more punt returns.
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BooyaCS


Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 7517
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BwickBrownie wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
BooyaCS wrote:
big poppa pump wrote:
I don't see why the Browns HAVE to start Manziel just for the sake of getting experience. When a coach says they will start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, that's what they mean, and that's what they should do. If the staff thinks that Hoyer is even slightly ahead of Manziel when the season begins, then that's who they should start.

There isn't one particular way that a QB grows and improves.

There are plenty of QB's that have come off the bench either because of injury, or the starter not playing well, or having passed the starter by becoming better in practice.

Throwing jf out there, just for the sake of getting him experience is not necessarily what's best for his growth, and more importantly, the team. Some qb's do better watching and learning, while others may improve by going out there and playing through their mistakes.

To say either method is better than the other is simply not true. Neither Johnny, nor Hoyer should start for the sake of starting, or sit for the sake of sitting.

If Johnny is the qb that gives us the best chance to win week 1, he should start.....if it's not till week 8, then it should be then......if not till next year.....so be it.


I don't think the staff believes Hoyer gives them the best chance to win. I think Pettine is too afraid to start a rookie and will start Hoyer regardless.


That doesn't make much sense. If you are proposing that there is turmoil within the coaching staff, then I suppose it could be true.

Why would Pettine not start the guy that gives them the best chance to win, regardless if that guy is a rookie?


I understand the concern... other Browns coaches have simply wanted to start veterans, whether it was out of a sense of loyalty, feeling like veterans had "earned it" more, not wanting to give rookies a sense of entitlement, or feeling like even if a rookie was better, being experienced gave the other player an intangible leg up.

I guess all I would point to is Pettine's willingness to play other rookies as starters, like Bitonio and possibly Gilbert and Kirksey. I don't get the Crennel / Mangini vibe from Pettine, and when he says every spot is open to best player, I really think he means that regardless of time played in the NFL.


I think Pettine wants Hoyer but the others (Loggins, Shannahan) want Manziel. So Pettine will probably pull the power play and start Hoyer because he is the 6 year vet.
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