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What were your thoughts on Sanders as a Steeler?
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Sanders was a much better fit for the Arians offense. Haley used him on short crossing patterns and on fades. There was little chance of him being able to run off coverage because he doesn't have the elite speed. He was too often asked to make contested catches which isn't his forte.

The biggest issue he'll have in Denver is getting his touches. There are a lot of weapons there which will limit his stats. But that offense, and a Peyton Manning offense, is a better match for him. He's a guy who likes to run his route and have the ball arrive on time.

He lacks awareness, and the ability to fight for the football. I don't think his hands are an issue unless he's going to the ground with the football. He has a tendency to lose a number of those. It's also just too easy for defenders to rip it away from him.

In an offense that creates space for him and the ball gets there when he expects, he should excel. Just don't count on him to be the go-to-guy or someone who is going to decide a playoff game for you. A team like Seattle will eat him alive.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
I think Sanders was a much better fit for the Arians offense. Haley used him on short crossing patterns and on fades. There was little chance of him being able to run off coverage because he doesn't have the elite speed. He was too often asked to make contested catches which isn't his forte.


Really?

Because take away 2 of those notably bad drops and he had pretty good year.

And he looked better and more comfortable in Haley's offense than he ever looked in Arians. In Arians offense he got jammed alot more and since he isnt physical, often struggled to get open.

Maybe Haley's offense wasnt perfect for him either, but there is much more clear evidence to suggest he was a better fit in Haley's offense than Arians....but on tape and on paper.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
I think Sanders was a much better fit for the Arians offense. Haley used him on short crossing patterns and on fades. There was little chance of him being able to run off coverage because he doesn't have the elite speed. He was too often asked to make contested catches which isn't his forte.


Really?

Because take away 2 of those notably bad drops and he had pretty good year.

And he looked better and more comfortable in Haley's offense than he ever looked in Arians. In Arians offense he got jammed alot more and since he isnt physical, often struggled to get open.

Maybe Haley's offense wasnt perfect for him either, but there is much more clear evidence to suggest he was a better fit in Haley's offense than Arians....but on tape and on paper.


I agree with CK. Sanders did have two HUGE drops. But he can not be counted on to catch many if any down field contested throws. Sanders is a capable deep threat, but that's not where he excels. Sanders is a possession WR and believe he best used as a #3-4 option.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
...Sanders dropped 3 passes last year? Where does this he has terrible/inconsistent hands come from?



He was credited for 3 drops. Like Wallace the year before him who I believe was credited for 1. He had a lot more than 3 drops, the official statistics don't speak the whole truth.

Furthermore, as a 'ball carrier' the one fumble he had left me with concern.. it was a fumble in the worst possible moment.

He is anti-clutch imo, he's got talent so I'm not suggesting he doesn't but imo, he'll never be a star. He'll always play second fiddle to a better WR, just like he did to Antonio Brown.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:

He was credited for 3 drops. Like Wallace the year before him who I believe was credited for 1. He had a lot more than 3 drops, the official statistics don't speak the whole truth.


If he had "alot more" than 3 drops, then youll have no problem pointing several of them out.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
I think Sanders was a much better fit for the Arians offense. Haley used him on short crossing patterns and on fades. There was little chance of him being able to run off coverage because he doesn't have the elite speed. He was too often asked to make contested catches which isn't his forte.


Really?

Because take away 2 of those notably bad drops and he had pretty good year.

And he looked better and more comfortable in Haley's offense than he ever looked in Arians. In Arians offense he got jammed alot more and since he isnt physical, often struggled to get open.

Maybe Haley's offense wasnt perfect for him either, but there is much more clear evidence to suggest he was a better fit in Haley's offense than Arians....but on tape and on paper.


I agree with CK. Sanders did have two HUGE drops. But he can not be counted on to catch many if any down field contested throws. Sanders is a capable deep threat, but that's not where he excels. Sanders is a possession WR and believe he best used as a #3-4 option.


What do you agree with him on, exactly? That he is a better fit for Arians scheme? There is very little to suggest that is the case. He played better in Haley's scheme on tape and the stats fully support that as well. I know he got more chances in Haley's scheme than in Arians, but he had his own issues in Arians scheme as well. In Arians scheme our receivers seemed to get jammed alot more because of the routes they were asked to run, and Sanders (and none of our other WRs) could handle those more physical secondaries.

I know he had some huge drops. Ive been saying that all along. However, he didnt have ALOT of drops.

Also, his number on the depth chart doesnt mean a thing. Its how he is used that will matter.

Number 4? He is far more capable than the average number 4 and better than the vast majority of 3s in this league. In fact, he would be an upgrade over alot of teams number 2s and could compete for a few teams number 1 spots. At this point, id certainly take Sanders over Lance Moore and especially Wheaton...even though I think Moore will fair fine as our number 2.

IMO, Decker was brought into replace Welker after this year, and 2015 it will IDEALLY be DMT and Latimer on the outside with Sanders in the slot.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
If he had "alot more" than 3 drops, then youll have no problem pointing several of them out.


Look at any of our games. They're not hard to find (I've said this before I cant look at youtube while at work, so I can't link videos).

Like I said, it's the same way with Mike Wallace the season before, where the QB is getting tagged for throwing an incomplete and/or bad pass rather than the receiver not making the catch.

Bottom line is, he has no where near elite hands (I'm not saying you said he did). There's inconsistencies imo in his entire game. I don't think he's a bad receiver by any means. But I don't think he's extremely reliable either.

I will give him some credit however, he showed a considerable amount more consistency in 2013 than he did 2012, so the signs that he is improving at a WR are there. Good thing. Pittsburgh decided to get rid of him right before he broke out, Razz
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Chieferific


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:

IMO, Decker was brought into replace Welker after this year, and 2015 it will IDEALLY be DMT and Latimer on the outside with Sanders in the slot.

Think You mean Sanders? Two totally different WRs but I agree that he was brought in because they lost Decker and hope to see him move to the slot after WW. It will be interesting to see how they plan to use him and if he's able to produce in that role.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

And he looked better and more comfortable in Haley's offense than he ever looked in Arians. In Arians offense he got jammed alot more and since he isnt physical, often struggled to get open.


He only played his first two seasons under Arians, and he was hurt both seasons. So, I'm pretty sure he would have looked more comfortable in any system just as any year 3-4 player looks more comfortable than years 1-2.

The Arians offense gave a guy like Sanders time and routes to create space from the defender. That's the advantage of those intermediate routes, and post patterns which have almost vanished from the offense the last few seasons.

I view the Arians offense as more WR friendly in general. Less QB friendly. I still argue that the Haley offense is better for larger bodied WR's.

Quote:
In Arians scheme our receivers seemed to get jammed alot more because of the routes they were asked to run, and Sanders (and none of our other WRs) could handle those more physical secondaries.


I disagree with this strongly. Where is the incentive for a team not to jam the Steelers WR's under Haley's scheme which is predicated on shorter throws? As fans, we've complained about this fact routinely. Teams have no fear of jamming and cluttering the short middle of the field in Haley's scheme. Especially when it's being run by smurfs and there's nothing but an inside running game to threaten that.

Far too many of Haley's deep passes were fades that asked Ben to throw it up quickly. A lot of these went to Cotchery (the slowest of the WR's) and Sanders. Neither guy was well suited to the task.

Quote:

Number 4? He is far more capable than the average number 4 and better than the vast majority of 3s in this league. In fact, he would be an upgrade over alot of teams number 2s and could compete for a few teams number 1 spots. At this point, id certainly take Sanders over Lance Moore and especially Wheaton...even though I think Moore will fair fine as our number 2.


On the field? Maybe. I think Moore is an older version of Sanders. When you factor in salary, however, which was the real issue with keeping him, that's when it becomes trickier.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
Look at any of our games. They're not hard to find (I've said this before I cant look at youtube while at work, so I can't link videos).


Okay...well later on you can go ahead and link all those drops to prove these claims your making. Looking forward to it.

I have every game recorded. He dropped more than 3....it was 4....maybe 5 if you include an extremely tough catch he dropped against New England that most WRs would likely drop. Either way...hardly "alot more".

If you see more, then tell me the games and at what point during the game.

Quote:
Like I said, it's the same way with Mike Wallace the season before, where the QB is getting tagged for throwing an incomplete and/or bad pass rather than the receiver not making the catch.


Except in many cases, they are bad passes.

But again, go ahead and point out his many drops when you get a chance.

Quote:
Bottom line is, he has no where near elite hands (I'm not saying you said he did). There's inconsistencies imo in his entire game. I don't think he's a bad receiver by any means. But I don't think he's extremely reliable either.

I will give him some credit however, he showed a considerable amount more consistency in 2013 than he did 2012, so the signs that he is improving at a WR are there. Good thing. Pittsburgh decided to get rid of him right before he broke out, Razz


He played better in 2012 than 2013, so not sure what youre getting at here.

And NO ONE has ever argued his hands are elite, so not exactly sure who youre arguing that point to.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:

He only played his first two seasons under Arians, and he was hurt both seasons. So, I'm pretty sure he would have looked more comfortable in any system just as any year 3-4 player looks more comfortable than years 1-2.

The Arians offense gave a guy like Sanders time and routes to create space from the defender. That's the advantage of those intermediate routes, and post patterns which have almost vanished from the offense the last few seasons.

I view the Arians offense as more WR friendly in general. Less QB friendly. I still argue that the Haley offense is better for larger bodied WR's.


He played two years under Arians and 2 under Haley. Yes, he was more experienced under Haley overall, but still needed to adjust to a new offense.

If you want to ASSUME he would be better in Arians offense, so be it. He never actually SHOWED it.

And Sanders did fine getting open in Haley's offense. Yes, some times he struggled, but it wasnt a huge issue Not saying there wouldnt be some benefits for him in Arians offense, but I have yet to read anything that explains why Arians offense is a MUCH BETTER FIT.

No point in really arguing it though.

Quote:
In Arians scheme our receivers seemed to get jammed alot more because of the routes they were asked to run, and Sanders (and none of our other WRs) could handle those more physical secondaries.


Quote:
I disagree with this strongly. Where is the incentive for a team not to jam the Steelers WR's under Haley's scheme which is predicated on shorter throws? As fans, we've complained about this fact routinely. Teams have no fear of jamming and cluttering the short middle of the field in Haley's scheme. Especially when it's being run by smurfs and there's nothing but an inside running game to threaten that.

Far too many of Haley's deep passes were fades that asked Ben to throw it up quickly. A lot of these went to Cotchery (the slowest of the WR's) and Sanders. Neither guy was well suited to the task.


Yes....but I never claimed they didnt jam our WRs in Haleys offense... it was a huge problem in Arians offense as well. We havent had a WR that could consistently beat the jam since mid 2000s Hines Ward. Holmes got better with it as well, but struggled his first couple years.

Quote:
On the field? Maybe. I think Moore is an older version of Sanders. When you factor in salary, however, which was the real issue with keeping him, that's when it becomes trickier.


I agree with this completely.

Just saying that in general, Id rather have Sanders than any of our other WRs after Brown....AT LEAST AT THIS POINT.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree because frankly, I don't think any of the WR's played very well in 2012, but I think that was more about the entire offense.

I'll take a look at some examples of what I'm talking about when I get home but it won't be til much later tonight. Bottom line is though is he's not as good as he thinks he is imo.
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Dcash4


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
Bottom line is though is he's not as good as he thinks he is imo.


How good does he think he is? I have never heard of anything about him saying he deserves more or anything like that.

I feel your trying to paint a negative image of Sanders, but really, thats just not there,

Overall he is a good/very good receiver - depending on the day. He will thrive as a 3rd option (or lower in Denver) of an offense and he is a passable number 2.

Clutch wasnt his thing for us, but he can be a very good, productive player for a team.

In Denver he should strive on the opposite side of D. Thomas, and having eyes off of him, with Manning throwing the ball all around the lot.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:

How good does he think he is? I have never heard of anything about him saying he deserves more or anything like that.

I feel your trying to paint a negative image of Sanders, but really, thats just not there,

Overall he is a good/very good receiver - depending on the day. He will thrive as a 3rd option (or lower in Denver) of an offense and he is a passable number 2.

Clutch wasnt his thing for us, but he can be a very good, productive player for a team.

In Denver he should strive on the opposite side of D. Thomas, and having eyes off of him, with Manning throwing the ball all around the lot.


No, definitely not trying to paint a negative picture, heck, i wanted him back. I definitely think there is potential, but I also feel like he thinks he's going to go to Denver and blow up. I just don't see it. It's just the impression I get from his recent comments about how playing with Manning is like winning the lottery and other such things. I get what he's saying but he's gotta be a better receiver than he has been for his QB's talent to matter all that much.

The talent is there, but he's gotta put it all together. He isn't the guy you're throwing to with the game on the line and the seconds ticking off in the Super Bowl imo. But he doesn't have to be that guy either.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
Again, we'll have to agree to disagree because frankly, I don't think any of the WR's played very well in 2012, but I think that was more about the entire offense.

I'll take a look at some examples of what I'm talking about when I get home but it won't be til much later tonight. Bottom line is though is he's not as good as he thinks he is imo.



Yes....all of our WR had some issues in 2012...mainly later in the year.

However, Sanders, when on the field, showed well. Thats why there was such a divide when the news came up about the Pats making him an offer and us possibly getting a 3rd rounder. Some felt he would continue to improve and some felt he would not take the next step. The latter group one that bet....but he wasnt "bad". He just didnt take that next step and dropped some key passes...two of which cost us games.
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