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How good do you think Derek Carr will be?
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How good will Carr be in the NFL?
Elite starter
19%
 19%  [ 8 ]
Very good starter
46%
 46%  [ 19 ]
Good starter
21%
 21%  [ 9 ]
Average starter
7%
 7%  [ 3 ]
Below average starter
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Backup
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
Complete bust
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 41

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attack_in_s/b


Joined: 11 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who does he compare to in terms of playing style? I get the cutler comparisons but it seems like all we are getting at with that is that he can be quite good but he'll never be great. IMO I think the Cutler, Stafford, Romo boat is possibly the worst position to be in with a QB. You've got a guy that is good enough that replacing him can always turn into a downgrade, but at the same time, does anyone have any illusion that cutler, romo or stafford will ever get a ring? And, those guys are all surrounded with top talent. Cutler might have the best WR pair in the league, Romo's are pretty good in their own respect, and stafford has the best WR of the last 20 years, yet these guys still can not win the big ones.

Does anyone think that Carr has the tools to become an ELITE QB? B/c outside of a few exceptions, it takes an elite QB to win the big one.

Lets put it this way, say we're picking top 5 next year; that means at least one of ; Mariota, Winston, Hundley, or Petty will be there. Do we draft one of them or is Carr good enough to stop us?
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LivingLegendWFC


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

attack_in_s/b wrote:
Who does he compare to in terms of playing style? I get the cutler comparisons but it seems like all we are getting at with that is that he can be quite good but he'll never be great. IMO I think the Cutler, Stafford, Romo boat is possibly the worst position to be in with a QB. You've got a guy that is good enough that replacing him can always turn into a downgrade, but at the same time, does anyone have any illusion that cutler, romo or stafford will ever get a ring? And, those guys are all surrounded with top talent. Cutler might have the best WR pair in the league, Romo's are pretty good in their own respect, and stafford has the best WR of the last 20 years, yet these guys still can not win the big ones.

Does anyone think that Carr has the tools to become an ELITE QB? B/c outside of a few exceptions, it takes an elite QB to win the big one.

Lets put it this way, say we're picking top 5 next year; that means at least one of ; Mariota, Winston, Hundley, or Petty will be there. Do we draft one of them or is Carr good enough to stop us?


Its a little different with those guys then talent holding them back from winning a ring. They all have the talent to win a super bowl Imo. The Lions lack of success isn't because Matthew Stafford is holding them back from it on his own. Their defended especially in the back end just isn't up to that level. And Schwarts is a terrible leader of men that had no accountability. Cutler played on a historically bad defends last year, and that's a key element to winning and getting to the post season. Romo just chokes when the game is on the line. Could that he a problem for Carr? No way of knowing but I wont just assume it will be.

I don't see Carr ever being a Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees where they make you contenders all by themselves but he can be good enough to win with the right supporting cast. If Flacco can win it all with a solid team around him I think Carr can. As far as your hypothetical situation its impossible to say at this point in time without seeing him play a snap yet. If we are picking top 5 and Carr played poorly for a decent amount of time you don't pass up a guy like Winston (assuming he gets his act together) but if he plays well and the team still struggles add another impact and give the young gun some more time. Franchise Qbs don't grow on trees and I disagree that having a very good but not elite starter is the worst situation you can find yourself in. Being a fan of this franchise should prove that. Id be more then ok with a very solid QB that isn't elite as opposed to going though what we have with literally zero serviceable Qbs.
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NickButera


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

attack_in_s/b wrote:
Who does he compare to in terms of playing style? I get the cutler comparisons but it seems like all we are getting at with that is that he can be quite good but he'll never be great. IMO I think the Cutler, Stafford, Romo boat is possibly the worst position to be in with a QB. You've got a guy that is good enough that replacing him can always turn into a downgrade, but at the same time, does anyone have any illusion that cutler, romo or stafford will ever get a ring? And, those guys are all surrounded with top talent. Cutler might have the best WR pair in the league, Romo's are pretty good in their own respect, and stafford has the best WR of the last 20 years, yet these guys still can not win the big ones.

Does anyone think that Carr has the tools to become an ELITE QB? B/c outside of a few exceptions, it takes an elite QB to win the big one.

Lets put it this way, say we're picking top 5 next year; that means at least one of ; Mariota, Winston, Hundley, or Petty will be there. Do we draft one of them or is Carr good enough to stop us?


IMO, too much emphasis is put on the 'will they ever win a ring' (when talking about Romo, Rivers, Stafford, Cutler, etc) until they do, then they never get included in the conversation again.

Guys like Flacco, Russel Wilson, Eli Manning, then there's guys like Dilfer and Brad Johnson. - Under-elite tier guys who've actually done it. Then include the guys that were able to actually QB their teams to a superbowl: Kaepernick, Grossman, Matt Hasselbeck, Delhomme, McNabb, Kerry Collins, McNair... etc. Very few QB's actually ever win a Superbowl. It's almost unfair to say upper-level but not elite QB's like Romo, Cutler, Stafford is a bad situation to be in because we don't know if they have what it takes to win it. - Because history has proven that if you have a good enough team and a top 10ish (but not elite) QB you've got a legit chance to win the Superbowl.

It's more than just a few exceptions. Top tier QB's take their teams to the Superbowl all the time. These are examples from just the last 12 years or so. As a matter of fact, the last 3 Superbowls have been won by non-elite QB's. if you go back 10-12 years you could make a very strong case that around half were won by non-elite QB's. (depending on your definition of elite)
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

attack_in_s/b wrote:
Who does he compare to in terms of playing style? I get the cutler comparisons but it seems like all we are getting at with that is that he can be quite good but he'll never be great. IMO I think the Cutler, Stafford, Romo boat is possibly the worst position to be in with a QB. You've got a guy that is good enough that replacing him can always turn into a downgrade, but at the same time, does anyone have any illusion that cutler, romo or stafford will ever get a ring? And, those guys are all surrounded with top talent. Cutler might have the best WR pair in the league, Romo's are pretty good in their own respect, and stafford has the best WR of the last 20 years, yet these guys still can not win the big ones.

Does anyone think that Carr has the tools to become an ELITE QB? B/c outside of a few exceptions, it takes an elite QB to win the big one.

Lets put it this way, say we're picking top 5 next year; that means at least one of ; Mariota, Winston, Hundley, or Petty will be there. Do we draft one of them or is Carr good enough to stop us?


(bolded) Complete and utter misnomer.
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RaiderX


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top 15 QB.
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attack_in_s/b


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
attack_in_s/b wrote:
Who does he compare to in terms of playing style? I get the cutler comparisons but it seems like all we are getting at with that is that he can be quite good but he'll never be great. IMO I think the Cutler, Stafford, Romo boat is possibly the worst position to be in with a QB. You've got a guy that is good enough that replacing him can always turn into a downgrade, but at the same time, does anyone have any illusion that cutler, romo or stafford will ever get a ring? And, those guys are all surrounded with top talent. Cutler might have the best WR pair in the league, Romo's are pretty good in their own respect, and stafford has the best WR of the last 20 years, yet these guys still can not win the big ones.

Does anyone think that Carr has the tools to become an ELITE QB? B/c outside of a few exceptions, it takes an elite QB to win the big one.

Lets put it this way, say we're picking top 5 next year; that means at least one of ; Mariota, Winston, Hundley, or Petty will be there. Do we draft one of them or is Carr good enough to stop us?


(bolded) Complete and utter misnomer.


Why is it a misnomer? Also, why call it a misnomer, why not just say you disagree? And, like I said there are a few exceptions. I don't understand how you can disagree, though. Sure, teams with meh QB's have won. I'll point to the ravens. Sure they won with an avg QB, however, how did they do the next year? Also, last I checked, rodgers, brees, brady and both mannings all had rings. In fact, I think they've all been to multiple super bowls. Also, when the ravens won with flacco, he was considered elite.... I dont think the ravens would have given him the biggest contract in NFL history at the time if they thought he was average.

You may win a super bowl with a sub par QB, as that saying goes, "on any given sunday....", however, I would argue that your odds are exponentially improved when you've got an elite QB. Additionally, Its' hard to maintain a team like the 49ers or the seahawks, where your stacked from top to bottom (and I would argue, without the elite QB, you need to be STACKED, not just solid) as everyone wants that big contract. Thats why these teams are cyclical in terms of their success, if they draft well for a couple years they've got a stacked team which is affordable because their star players are all on rookie contracts. Once these contracts come up for renewal you see almost an exodus in their roster (IE the ravens). With an elite QB, you can afford to let some guys walk and take your time replacing them, and not have to worry about a total collapse.

Additionally, if you have an avg QB that wins a superbowl, you better believe he is going to want to get paid like an elite QB which means letting go of the team it takes to make your avg QB look elite (Again, Flacco).

I am not saying that you can not win without an elite QB, I am saying elite QB's result in consistent success and winning a ring with them is a lot less fluky then it is winning with a great defense or somehting other than the QB. Also, imo in our situation, it is much easier to find an elite QB then build a team like the seahawks or 49ers. If that is the model we are going for it will be another 5 years before we start to see results. Last, the 49ers and seahawks both had good rosters for a while now, why is it that they only became top teams once they got Kap and Wilson respectively?
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NickButera


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to disagree entirely. I used to think that way, but have since redefined my terms and accepted that a lot of the top end but not elite guys are plenty good for a team to win a superbowl. Flacco, Big Ben, Eli, Russel Wilson, Kaep, McNabb, McNair, Romo, Cutler, Rivers, Stafford, are all on the same level - about. None are average. They are all above average, usually ranked 5-12 kinds of Qb's. By "Elite" I tend in thinking the top 3 - Manning, Brady Rodgers. By Average I assume we're talking about the mid tier guys that aren't consistent and usually don't start for more than 4 years. The rest are in that in between area, Romo and Stafford, etc, aren't average QB's. If we're defining Flacco as 'elite' before he won his superbowl, then we also have to consider guys like Stafford and Romo elite. Because they actually were better at passing the football than Flacco is/was.

If we're talking about average guys, most would agree with you. But in your orginal post you said Romo, Cutler and Stafford. These kinds of guy's are way above the level that Dilfer and Brad Johnson was. They are not average. These kinds of QB's lead their teams to Superbowls all the time.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

attack_in_s/b wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
attack_in_s/b wrote:
Who does he compare to in terms of playing style? I get the cutler comparisons but it seems like all we are getting at with that is that he can be quite good but he'll never be great. IMO I think the Cutler, Stafford, Romo boat is possibly the worst position to be in with a QB. You've got a guy that is good enough that replacing him can always turn into a downgrade, but at the same time, does anyone have any illusion that cutler, romo or stafford will ever get a ring? And, those guys are all surrounded with top talent. Cutler might have the best WR pair in the league, Romo's are pretty good in their own respect, and stafford has the best WR of the last 20 years, yet these guys still can not win the big ones.

Does anyone think that Carr has the tools to become an ELITE QB? B/c outside of a few exceptions, it takes an elite QB to win the big one.

Lets put it this way, say we're picking top 5 next year; that means at least one of ; Mariota, Winston, Hundley, or Petty will be there. Do we draft one of them or is Carr good enough to stop us?


(bolded) Complete and utter misnomer.


Why is it a misnomer? Also, why call it a misnomer, why not just say you disagree? And, like I said there are a few exceptions. I don't understand how you can disagree, though. Sure, teams with meh QB's have won. I'll point to the ravens. Sure they won with an avg QB, however, how did they do the next year? Also, last I checked, rodgers, brees, brady and both mannings all had rings. In fact, I think they've all been to multiple super bowls. Also, when the ravens won with flacco, he was considered elite.... I dont think the ravens would have given him the biggest contract in NFL history at the time if they thought he was average.

You may win a super bowl with a sub par QB, as that saying goes, "on any given sunday....", however, I would argue that your odds are exponentially improved when you've got an elite QB. Additionally, Its' hard to maintain a team like the 49ers or the seahawks, where your stacked from top to bottom (and I would argue, without the elite QB, you need to be STACKED, not just solid) as everyone wants that big contract. Thats why these teams are cyclical in terms of their success, if they draft well for a couple years they've got a stacked team which is affordable because their star players are all on rookie contracts. Once these contracts come up for renewal you see almost an exodus in their roster (IE the ravens). With an elite QB, you can afford to let some guys walk and take your time replacing them, and not have to worry about a total collapse.

Additionally, if you have an avg QB that wins a superbowl, you better believe he is going to want to get paid like an elite QB which means letting go of the team it takes to make your avg QB look elite (Again, Flacco).

I am not saying that you can not win without an elite QB, I am saying elite QB's result in consistent success and winning a ring with them is a lot less fluky then it is winning with a great defense or somehting other than the QB. Also, imo in our situation, it is much easier to find an elite QB then build a team like the seahawks or 49ers. If that is the model we are going for it will be another 5 years before we start to see results. Last, the 49ers and seahawks both had good rosters for a while now, why is it that they only became top teams once they got Kap and Wilson respectively?


It's a complete misnomer because it's a common belief that only "elite" QBs win Super Bowls when historical facts bear otherwise. Elite QBs don't have down seasons in their prime, consistency is what makes them elite. Get into the playoffs and anything can happen. A decent QB can get hot.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that it's crazy to suggest that finding an elite QB would be easy. Those guys come around once every 5-8 years. It's exponentially easier to build a defense and take the air out of the ball.
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ROFLcopter


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only do you not need an "elite" QB as such to win a super bowl, it's extremely difficult to find one and waiting on one is stupid. Joe Flacco isn't an elite QB. But the Ravens surrounded him with sufficient talent, and he went on a hot streak in the playoffs and they won the super bowl.

I'm fine with someone in that 5-12ish range Nick Butera talked about. That's where I think Carr will be given time. Give him good talent around him and some solid WRs to throw to and good things will happen.
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Raiiiiidersssss


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROFLcopter wrote:
Not only do you not need an "elite" QB as such to win a super bowl, it's extremely difficult to find one and waiting on one is stupid. Joe Flacco isn't an elite QB. But the Ravens surrounded him with sufficient talent, and he went on a hot streak in the playoffs and they won the super bowl.

I'm fine with someone in that 5-12ish range Nick Butera talked about. That's where I think Carr will be given time. Give him good talent around him and some solid WRs to throw to and good things will happen.


Nice post, I agree
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LivingLegendWFC


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROFLcopter wrote:
Not only do you not need an "elite" QB as such to win a super bowl, it's extremely difficult to find one and waiting on one is stupid. Joe Flacco isn't an elite QB. But the Ravens surrounded him with sufficient talent, and he went on a hot streak in the playoffs and they won the super bowl.

I'm fine with someone in that 5-12ish range Nick Butera talked about. That's where I think Carr will be given time. Give him good talent around him and some solid WRs to throw to and good things will happen.


Exactly. I don't think some people realize just how truly difficult it is to find a true, elite, franchise QB. They don't grow on trees. If you think your only chance st winning a super bowl is to have one of those guys then I don't know what to say. Obviously you must have at least solid QB play to ger to the top but a very solid starter and a well built team around him can get the job done.

We have started to build a good foundation, and we still are at least 3-4 years away from legit contender status imo but with good drafting and smart free agent additions we can be competitive in the mean time. Now if Carr becomes one of those elite type guys the process could speed up. I'm not counting on that happening but I do think were moving in the right direction. This franchise has been so terribly run over the past decade and it took a lot of time to turn it around and obviously we still aren't done but I like what we have been doing to build the team the right way, a team that compete in the future without just hoping and praying we find that elite top level guy.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LivingLegendWFC wrote:
ROFLcopter wrote:
Not only do you not need an "elite" QB as such to win a super bowl, it's extremely difficult to find one and waiting on one is stupid. Joe Flacco isn't an elite QB. But the Ravens surrounded him with sufficient talent, and he went on a hot streak in the playoffs and they won the super bowl.

I'm fine with someone in that 5-12ish range Nick Butera talked about. That's where I think Carr will be given time. Give him good talent around him and some solid WRs to throw to and good things will happen.


Exactly. I don't think some people realize just how truly difficult it is to find a true, elite, franchise QB. They don't grow on trees. If you think your only chance st winning a super bowl is to have one of those guys then I don't know what to say. Obviously you must have at least solid QB play to ger to the top but a very solid starter and a well built team around him can get the job done.

We have started to build a good foundation, and we still are at least 3-4 years away from legit contender status imo but with good drafting and smart free agent additions we can be competitive in the mean time. Now if Carr becomes one of those elite type guys the process could speed up. I'm not counting on that happening but I do think were moving in the right direction. This franchise has been so terribly run over the past decade and it took a lot of time to turn it around and obviously we still aren't done but I like what we have been doing to build the team the right way, a team that compete in the future without just hoping and praying we find that elite top level guy.


Eventually the big names will retire manning brady breeze then who takes the top spot? kaep rodgers ?
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ROFLcopter


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
ROFLcopter wrote:
Not only do you not need an "elite" QB as such to win a super bowl, it's extremely difficult to find one and waiting on one is stupid. Joe Flacco isn't an elite QB. But the Ravens surrounded him with sufficient talent, and he went on a hot streak in the playoffs and they won the super bowl.

I'm fine with someone in that 5-12ish range Nick Butera talked about. That's where I think Carr will be given time. Give him good talent around him and some solid WRs to throw to and good things will happen.


Exactly. I don't think some people realize just how truly difficult it is to find a true, elite, franchise QB. They don't grow on trees. If you think your only chance st winning a super bowl is to have one of those guys then I don't know what to say. Obviously you must have at least solid QB play to ger to the top but a very solid starter and a well built team around him can get the job done.

We have started to build a good foundation, and we still are at least 3-4 years away from legit contender status imo but with good drafting and smart free agent additions we can be competitive in the mean time. Now if Carr becomes one of those elite type guys the process could speed up. I'm not counting on that happening but I do think were moving in the right direction. This franchise has been so terribly run over the past decade and it took a lot of time to turn it around and obviously we still aren't done but I like what we have been doing to build the team the right way, a team that compete in the future without just hoping and praying we find that elite top level guy.


Eventually the big names will retire manning brady breeze then who takes the top spot? kaep rodgers ?

I think Rodgers is already on that level, tbh. +++ing Packers go right from one HOFer to a guy who'll probably end up there himself.
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MrOaktown_56


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROFLcopter wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
LivingLegendWFC wrote:
ROFLcopter wrote:
Not only do you not need an "elite" QB as such to win a super bowl, it's extremely difficult to find one and waiting on one is stupid. Joe Flacco isn't an elite QB. But the Ravens surrounded him with sufficient talent, and he went on a hot streak in the playoffs and they won the super bowl.

I'm fine with someone in that 5-12ish range Nick Butera talked about. That's where I think Carr will be given time. Give him good talent around him and some solid WRs to throw to and good things will happen.


Exactly. I don't think some people realize just how truly difficult it is to find a true, elite, franchise QB. They don't grow on trees. If you think your only chance st winning a super bowl is to have one of those guys then I don't know what to say. Obviously you must have at least solid QB play to ger to the top but a very solid starter and a well built team around him can get the job done.

We have started to build a good foundation, and we still are at least 3-4 years away from legit contender status imo but with good drafting and smart free agent additions we can be competitive in the mean time. Now if Carr becomes one of those elite type guys the process could speed up. I'm not counting on that happening but I do think were moving in the right direction. This franchise has been so terribly run over the past decade and it took a lot of time to turn it around and obviously we still aren't done but I like what we have been doing to build the team the right way, a team that compete in the future without just hoping and praying we find that elite top level guy.


Eventually the big names will retire manning brady breeze then who takes the top spot? kaep rodgers ?

I think Rodgers is already on that level, tbh. +++ing Packers go right from one HOFer to a guy who'll probably end up there himself.


Rodgers is better than Manning and Brady. He can make throws that they can only dream of. He also plays with a less talented oline than either team IMO.
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Sonic Raider


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now I am fine with Carr sitting on the bench behind Schaub. Schaub has earned his oppurtunity to overcome a bad 2013 season and start for us.

Back to Carr, he put up tremendous numbers in Fresno State but the bad rap he got from being the brother of David Carr, who was a bust, dropped him into the 2nd round but it was great for us because we got Khalil Mack and Derek Carr without having to trade up for either one of them.
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