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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 6495
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revel8 wrote:
CactusPackFan wrote:
It's really a matter of science. Today's game is faster, the players are stronger, and the forces the athlete's bodies must endure, to include planting, re-direction, hitting, etc, are greater than ever. Sports specific training helps, but simply puts the athletes in these dangerous positions (albeit not at full speed) to train their bodies to accommodate these forces. I am not sure there is a real answer to why injuries occur. That said, (and please keep in mind I am not pointing fingers or casting accusations here), but the spread of performance enhancing drugs and various masking agents to get past the minimal random testing done by the NFL could possibly be a reason.

Take a look at two possible impacts of anabolic steroid usage, which I not only believe but KNOW is rampant in the NFL, NCAA, and even at the high school levels. There are two impacts these drugs have both mentally and physically on the body:

1. Because they allow quicker repair, and help athletes maintain a higher nitrogen balance (which fuels the anabolic, or building stage), athletes on these drugs often experience rapid increases in strength to the muscle bellies, but the tendons that support them are not ready for heavier loads. One of two things then happens--either the tendon gives way under load, or the muscle tears trying to take a higher portion of the load than it should. This could possibly be why we see so many hamstring tears in the NFL.

2. Mentally, the mindset is to increase the weight--If I know I am repairing faster than normal, then I will add more weight and pyramid as often as possible--this mental aspect could also contribute to injuries when the connective tissues and tendons simply are not ready for the added forces.

Lastly, I know that athletes are taking these at younger ages, during critical stages of their growth. They get injuries when they are younger, that never fully repair, only to be re-injured later. This compounds the negative side effects even more. The longer an athlete is on them, (even if on and off for 12 week cycles which is typical) the greater these negative impacts. I am not coming at this from an accusatory view, but from a realistic, educated one. These drugs are simply part of the game, and while this may sound cynical, just look at what's happened to the average player size in the last 30 years--and it's not really leveling off. I have seen it at all levels of sports, and I believe it to be the strongest contributor to injuries. As fans, we do not want to believe that the sports heroes we love are or have been doing this, and this allows us to suspend disbelief when we hear of guys throwing up 225lbs 20-40 times in the bench press, or squatting 750 lbs at a body weight of 205, or power cleaning for reps with 315lbs.


I agree completely that it's based entirely in science.

The human body can only take so much stress within any given window of time. For example a bone will break if there's enough acute pressure applied within a window of say, a microsecond.

There is naturally much more overall stress applied to each player's body throughout the season, but the time frame is key here. Too much stress in too small a window of time and you can start to see the injuries piling up. AKA overworking players.

McCarthy may have given a possible hint of this in his press conference last week. He said that the # of reps they're taking now in OTAs are down to the lower 20s as opposed to the mid 30's in previous seasons. Could this be because they believe they may be overworking players a bit too much before the season?

---

As a side note, it seems to me that being in Wisconsin wouldn't be as great for a player's health throughout the season due to limited sun exposure at that latitude as well. Sunlight, contrary to what some believe, is actually very good for the body and its immune system. The body can heal better with adequate sun exposure. A team like Green Bay automatically gets the short end of the stick in this area and it likely contributes to player health issues.


You're describing material fatigue (going to be my professional specialty, only on superpolymers not human muscles or bones)

In bones, it doesn't matter. With your bones, you're not applying a shear stress and there's no way in hell you're breaking one of your leg bones on a football field in tension or compression. It would take an unfathomable number of reps in a tiny time period. When you look at how the body repairs those bones with the formation of microfractures and hardened deposits, there's just no way you would get that kind of failure. Think about how much force your legs are absorbing when you jump off of a 10 foot wall, that's WAY more than you're generating shooting out of a 3 point stance. Lifting is pure tension and compression, your body is designed to handle that stress and I've never heard of a bone injury caused in tension or compression relating to lifting, assuming the bone was healthy.

The closest thing I can think of is like an avulsion where a piece of the bone tears away with the tendon and muscle rather than the tendon or muscle tearing, but that's very rare and is typically caused by failure at the tendon level rather than bone fatigue.

Now failure in shear happens but it doesn't happen due to fatigue, your bones aren't intended to absorb force like that. If Tamba Hali rolls into Derek Sherrod's lower leg at full speed, that's the end of that. There's nothing about fatigue going on there. It hasn't even been stressed.
=====================

Now muscles and tendons, you're correct. Fatigue can be an issue, there's no real compression aspect of muscles, but like with any polymer, fatigue needs to be considered. Whether or not our hamstring issues are a result of fatigue as a result of overworking is something I can't really say. There are so many other variables to be considered that nobody can make that claim.

I imagine with all the limits on practices that exist today, that fatigue is not a significant contributing factor. Likely we just have a bunch of guys that have a tendency to overstretch their hamstring when they run.
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AaronCharles wrote:
I have to say, I see no way we don't start 1-4, with our schedule.
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Revel8


Joined: 14 Aug 2013
Posts: 1297
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
CactusPackFan wrote:
It's really a matter of science. Today's game is faster, the players are stronger, and the forces the athlete's bodies must endure, to include planting, re-direction, hitting, etc, are greater than ever. Sports specific training helps, but simply puts the athletes in these dangerous positions (albeit not at full speed) to train their bodies to accommodate these forces. I am not sure there is a real answer to why injuries occur. That said, (and please keep in mind I am not pointing fingers or casting accusations here), but the spread of performance enhancing drugs and various masking agents to get past the minimal random testing done by the NFL could possibly be a reason.

Take a look at two possible impacts of anabolic steroid usage, which I not only believe but KNOW is rampant in the NFL, NCAA, and even at the high school levels. There are two impacts these drugs have both mentally and physically on the body:

1. Because they allow quicker repair, and help athletes maintain a higher nitrogen balance (which fuels the anabolic, or building stage), athletes on these drugs often experience rapid increases in strength to the muscle bellies, but the tendons that support them are not ready for heavier loads. One of two things then happens--either the tendon gives way under load, or the muscle tears trying to take a higher portion of the load than it should. This could possibly be why we see so many hamstring tears in the NFL.

2. Mentally, the mindset is to increase the weight--If I know I am repairing faster than normal, then I will add more weight and pyramid as often as possible--this mental aspect could also contribute to injuries when the connective tissues and tendons simply are not ready for the added forces.

Lastly, I know that athletes are taking these at younger ages, during critical stages of their growth. They get injuries when they are younger, that never fully repair, only to be re-injured later. This compounds the negative side effects even more. The longer an athlete is on them, (even if on and off for 12 week cycles which is typical) the greater these negative impacts. I am not coming at this from an accusatory view, but from a realistic, educated one. These drugs are simply part of the game, and while this may sound cynical, just look at what's happened to the average player size in the last 30 years--and it's not really leveling off. I have seen it at all levels of sports, and I believe it to be the strongest contributor to injuries. As fans, we do not want to believe that the sports heroes we love are or have been doing this, and this allows us to suspend disbelief when we hear of guys throwing up 225lbs 20-40 times in the bench press, or squatting 750 lbs at a body weight of 205, or power cleaning for reps with 315lbs.


I agree completely that it's based entirely in science.

The human body can only take so much stress within any given window of time. For example a bone will break if there's enough acute pressure applied within a window of say, a microsecond.

There is naturally much more overall stress applied to each player's body throughout the season, but the time frame is key here. Too much stress in too small a window of time and you can start to see the injuries piling up. AKA overworking players.

McCarthy may have given a possible hint of this in his press conference last week. He said that the # of reps they're taking now in OTAs are down to the lower 20s as opposed to the mid 30's in previous seasons. Could this be because they believe they may be overworking players a bit too much before the season?

---

As a side note, it seems to me that being in Wisconsin wouldn't be as great for a player's health throughout the season due to limited sun exposure at that latitude as well. Sunlight, contrary to what some believe, is actually very good for the body and its immune system. The body can heal better with adequate sun exposure. A team like Green Bay automatically gets the short end of the stick in this area and it likely contributes to player health issues.


You're describing material fatigue (going to be my professional specialty, only on superpolymers not human muscles or bones)

In bones, it doesn't matter. With your bones, you're not applying a shear stress and there's no way in hell you're breaking one of your leg bones on a football field in tension or compression. It would take an unfathomable number of reps in a tiny time period. When you look at how the body repairs those bones with the formation of microfractures and hardened deposits, there's just no way you would get that kind of failure. Think about how much force your legs are absorbing when you jump off of a 10 foot wall, that's WAY more than you're generating shooting out of a 3 point stance. Lifting is pure tension and compression, your body is designed to handle that stress and I've never heard of a bone injury caused in tension or compression relating to lifting, assuming the bone was healthy.

The closest thing I can think of is like an avulsion where a piece of the bone tears away with the tendon and muscle rather than the tendon or muscle tearing, but that's very rare and is typically caused by failure at the tendon level rather than bone fatigue.

Now failure in shear happens but it doesn't happen due to fatigue, your bones aren't intended to absorb force like that. If Tamba Hali rolls into Derek Sherrod's lower leg at full speed, that's the end of that. There's nothing about fatigue going on there. It hasn't even been stressed.
=====================

Now muscles and tendons, you're correct. Fatigue can be an issue, there's no real compression aspect of muscles, but like with any polymer, fatigue needs to be considered. Whether or not our hamstring issues are a result of fatigue as a result of overworking is something I can't really say. There are so many other variables to be considered that nobody can make that claim.

I imagine with all the limits on practices that exist today, that fatigue is not a significant contributing factor. Likely we just have a bunch of guys that have a tendency to overstretch their hamstring when they run.


I agree with nearly everything you wrote, though that's largely because most of what you wrote doesn't address what I said. I bolded a portion above you seem to have missed.

There's really no reason to believe that the stress I'm talking of is no longer a factor when it comes to football practices and games. A player's body will naturally be less stressed while taking fewer reps.
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All great truths begin as blasphemies.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 6495
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revel8 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
CactusPackFan wrote:
It's really a matter of science. Today's game is faster, the players are stronger, and the forces the athlete's bodies must endure, to include planting, re-direction, hitting, etc, are greater than ever. Sports specific training helps, but simply puts the athletes in these dangerous positions (albeit not at full speed) to train their bodies to accommodate these forces. I am not sure there is a real answer to why injuries occur. That said, (and please keep in mind I am not pointing fingers or casting accusations here), but the spread of performance enhancing drugs and various masking agents to get past the minimal random testing done by the NFL could possibly be a reason.

Take a look at two possible impacts of anabolic steroid usage, which I not only believe but KNOW is rampant in the NFL, NCAA, and even at the high school levels. There are two impacts these drugs have both mentally and physically on the body:

1. Because they allow quicker repair, and help athletes maintain a higher nitrogen balance (which fuels the anabolic, or building stage), athletes on these drugs often experience rapid increases in strength to the muscle bellies, but the tendons that support them are not ready for heavier loads. One of two things then happens--either the tendon gives way under load, or the muscle tears trying to take a higher portion of the load than it should. This could possibly be why we see so many hamstring tears in the NFL.

2. Mentally, the mindset is to increase the weight--If I know I am repairing faster than normal, then I will add more weight and pyramid as often as possible--this mental aspect could also contribute to injuries when the connective tissues and tendons simply are not ready for the added forces.

Lastly, I know that athletes are taking these at younger ages, during critical stages of their growth. They get injuries when they are younger, that never fully repair, only to be re-injured later. This compounds the negative side effects even more. The longer an athlete is on them, (even if on and off for 12 week cycles which is typical) the greater these negative impacts. I am not coming at this from an accusatory view, but from a realistic, educated one. These drugs are simply part of the game, and while this may sound cynical, just look at what's happened to the average player size in the last 30 years--and it's not really leveling off. I have seen it at all levels of sports, and I believe it to be the strongest contributor to injuries. As fans, we do not want to believe that the sports heroes we love are or have been doing this, and this allows us to suspend disbelief when we hear of guys throwing up 225lbs 20-40 times in the bench press, or squatting 750 lbs at a body weight of 205, or power cleaning for reps with 315lbs.


I agree completely that it's based entirely in science.

The human body can only take so much stress within any given window of time. For example a bone will break if there's enough acute pressure applied within a window of say, a microsecond.

There is naturally much more overall stress applied to each player's body throughout the season, but the time frame is key here. Too much stress in too small a window of time and you can start to see the injuries piling up. AKA overworking players.

McCarthy may have given a possible hint of this in his press conference last week. He said that the # of reps they're taking now in OTAs are down to the lower 20s as opposed to the mid 30's in previous seasons. Could this be because they believe they may be overworking players a bit too much before the season?

---

As a side note, it seems to me that being in Wisconsin wouldn't be as great for a player's health throughout the season due to limited sun exposure at that latitude as well. Sunlight, contrary to what some believe, is actually very good for the body and its immune system. The body can heal better with adequate sun exposure. A team like Green Bay automatically gets the short end of the stick in this area and it likely contributes to player health issues.


You're describing material fatigue (going to be my professional specialty, only on superpolymers not human muscles or bones)

In bones, it doesn't matter. With your bones, you're not applying a shear stress and there's no way in hell you're breaking one of your leg bones on a football field in tension or compression. It would take an unfathomable number of reps in a tiny time period. When you look at how the body repairs those bones with the formation of microfractures and hardened deposits, there's just no way you would get that kind of failure. Think about how much force your legs are absorbing when you jump off of a 10 foot wall, that's WAY more than you're generating shooting out of a 3 point stance. Lifting is pure tension and compression, your body is designed to handle that stress and I've never heard of a bone injury caused in tension or compression relating to lifting, assuming the bone was healthy.

The closest thing I can think of is like an avulsion where a piece of the bone tears away with the tendon and muscle rather than the tendon or muscle tearing, but that's very rare and is typically caused by failure at the tendon level rather than bone fatigue.

Now failure in shear happens but it doesn't happen due to fatigue, your bones aren't intended to absorb force like that. If Tamba Hali rolls into Derek Sherrod's lower leg at full speed, that's the end of that. There's nothing about fatigue going on there. It hasn't even been stressed.
=====================

Now muscles and tendons, you're correct. Fatigue can be an issue, there's no real compression aspect of muscles, but like with any polymer, fatigue needs to be considered. Whether or not our hamstring issues are a result of fatigue as a result of overworking is something I can't really say. There are so many other variables to be considered that nobody can make that claim.

I imagine with all the limits on practices that exist today, that fatigue is not a significant contributing factor. Likely we just have a bunch of guys that have a tendency to overstretch their hamstring when they run.


I agree with nearly everything you wrote, though that's largely because most of what you wrote doesn't address what I said. I bolded a portion above you seem to have missed.

There's really no reason to believe that the stress I'm talking of is no longer a factor when it comes to football practices and games. A player's body will naturally be less stressed while taking fewer reps.


I understand what you're saying, your example is just bad. Bones don't suffer from fatigue in such a way as to cause failure.

Bones break due to an applied shear stress. There's almost nothing you do in your life that applies a shear stress to your bones. Athletically every thing you hit your body with is either tension or compression, almost always compression.
_________________
Remember who you are dealing with:
AaronCharles wrote:
I have to say, I see no way we don't start 1-4, with our schedule.
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View user's profile Send private message
Revel8


Joined: 14 Aug 2013
Posts: 1297
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
CactusPackFan wrote:
It's really a matter of science. Today's game is faster, the players are stronger, and the forces the athlete's bodies must endure, to include planting, re-direction, hitting, etc, are greater than ever. Sports specific training helps, but simply puts the athletes in these dangerous positions (albeit not at full speed) to train their bodies to accommodate these forces. I am not sure there is a real answer to why injuries occur. That said, (and please keep in mind I am not pointing fingers or casting accusations here), but the spread of performance enhancing drugs and various masking agents to get past the minimal random testing done by the NFL could possibly be a reason.

Take a look at two possible impacts of anabolic steroid usage, which I not only believe but KNOW is rampant in the NFL, NCAA, and even at the high school levels. There are two impacts these drugs have both mentally and physically on the body:

1. Because they allow quicker repair, and help athletes maintain a higher nitrogen balance (which fuels the anabolic, or building stage), athletes on these drugs often experience rapid increases in strength to the muscle bellies, but the tendons that support them are not ready for heavier loads. One of two things then happens--either the tendon gives way under load, or the muscle tears trying to take a higher portion of the load than it should. This could possibly be why we see so many hamstring tears in the NFL.

2. Mentally, the mindset is to increase the weight--If I know I am repairing faster than normal, then I will add more weight and pyramid as often as possible--this mental aspect could also contribute to injuries when the connective tissues and tendons simply are not ready for the added forces.

Lastly, I know that athletes are taking these at younger ages, during critical stages of their growth. They get injuries when they are younger, that never fully repair, only to be re-injured later. This compounds the negative side effects even more. The longer an athlete is on them, (even if on and off for 12 week cycles which is typical) the greater these negative impacts. I am not coming at this from an accusatory view, but from a realistic, educated one. These drugs are simply part of the game, and while this may sound cynical, just look at what's happened to the average player size in the last 30 years--and it's not really leveling off. I have seen it at all levels of sports, and I believe it to be the strongest contributor to injuries. As fans, we do not want to believe that the sports heroes we love are or have been doing this, and this allows us to suspend disbelief when we hear of guys throwing up 225lbs 20-40 times in the bench press, or squatting 750 lbs at a body weight of 205, or power cleaning for reps with 315lbs.


I agree completely that it's based entirely in science.

The human body can only take so much stress within any given window of time. For example a bone will break if there's enough acute pressure applied within a window of say, a microsecond.

There is naturally much more overall stress applied to each player's body throughout the season, but the time frame is key here. Too much stress in too small a window of time and you can start to see the injuries piling up. AKA overworking players.

McCarthy may have given a possible hint of this in his press conference last week. He said that the # of reps they're taking now in OTAs are down to the lower 20s as opposed to the mid 30's in previous seasons. Could this be because they believe they may be overworking players a bit too much before the season?

---

As a side note, it seems to me that being in Wisconsin wouldn't be as great for a player's health throughout the season due to limited sun exposure at that latitude as well. Sunlight, contrary to what some believe, is actually very good for the body and its immune system. The body can heal better with adequate sun exposure. A team like Green Bay automatically gets the short end of the stick in this area and it likely contributes to player health issues.


You're describing material fatigue (going to be my professional specialty, only on superpolymers not human muscles or bones)

In bones, it doesn't matter. With your bones, you're not applying a shear stress and there's no way in hell you're breaking one of your leg bones on a football field in tension or compression. It would take an unfathomable number of reps in a tiny time period. When you look at how the body repairs those bones with the formation of microfractures and hardened deposits, there's just no way you would get that kind of failure. Think about how much force your legs are absorbing when you jump off of a 10 foot wall, that's WAY more than you're generating shooting out of a 3 point stance. Lifting is pure tension and compression, your body is designed to handle that stress and I've never heard of a bone injury caused in tension or compression relating to lifting, assuming the bone was healthy.

The closest thing I can think of is like an avulsion where a piece of the bone tears away with the tendon and muscle rather than the tendon or muscle tearing, but that's very rare and is typically caused by failure at the tendon level rather than bone fatigue.

Now failure in shear happens but it doesn't happen due to fatigue, your bones aren't intended to absorb force like that. If Tamba Hali rolls into Derek Sherrod's lower leg at full speed, that's the end of that. There's nothing about fatigue going on there. It hasn't even been stressed.
=====================

Now muscles and tendons, you're correct. Fatigue can be an issue, there's no real compression aspect of muscles, but like with any polymer, fatigue needs to be considered. Whether or not our hamstring issues are a result of fatigue as a result of overworking is something I can't really say. There are so many other variables to be considered that nobody can make that claim.

I imagine with all the limits on practices that exist today, that fatigue is not a significant contributing factor. Likely we just have a bunch of guys that have a tendency to overstretch their hamstring when they run.


I agree with nearly everything you wrote, though that's largely because most of what you wrote doesn't address what I said. I bolded a portion above you seem to have missed.

There's really no reason to believe that the stress I'm talking of is no longer a factor when it comes to football practices and games. A player's body will naturally be less stressed while taking fewer reps.


I understand what you're saying, your example is just bad. Bones don't suffer from fatigue in such a way as to cause failure.

Bones break due to an applied shear stress. There's almost nothing you do in your life that applies a shear stress to your bones. Athletically every thing you hit your body with is either tension or compression, almost always compression.


To me it seems either you didn't read what I bolded or didn't understand it.

I was going to expand upon the example, but thought it would just convolute the point. Perhaps I should have.

Enough acute stress on a bone within the time frame of a microsecond can break the bone. Just as enough stress on a body's immune system within a certain time frame can lead to sickness. Just as enough stress on any part of the body within a certain time frame can lead to a greater chance of injury in that part of the body.
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All great truths begin as blasphemies.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 6495
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revel8 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
CactusPackFan wrote:
It's really a matter of science. Today's game is faster, the players are stronger, and the forces the athlete's bodies must endure, to include planting, re-direction, hitting, etc, are greater than ever. Sports specific training helps, but simply puts the athletes in these dangerous positions (albeit not at full speed) to train their bodies to accommodate these forces. I am not sure there is a real answer to why injuries occur. That said, (and please keep in mind I am not pointing fingers or casting accusations here), but the spread of performance enhancing drugs and various masking agents to get past the minimal random testing done by the NFL could possibly be a reason.

Take a look at two possible impacts of anabolic steroid usage, which I not only believe but KNOW is rampant in the NFL, NCAA, and even at the high school levels. There are two impacts these drugs have both mentally and physically on the body:

1. Because they allow quicker repair, and help athletes maintain a higher nitrogen balance (which fuels the anabolic, or building stage), athletes on these drugs often experience rapid increases in strength to the muscle bellies, but the tendons that support them are not ready for heavier loads. One of two things then happens--either the tendon gives way under load, or the muscle tears trying to take a higher portion of the load than it should. This could possibly be why we see so many hamstring tears in the NFL.

2. Mentally, the mindset is to increase the weight--If I know I am repairing faster than normal, then I will add more weight and pyramid as often as possible--this mental aspect could also contribute to injuries when the connective tissues and tendons simply are not ready for the added forces.

Lastly, I know that athletes are taking these at younger ages, during critical stages of their growth. They get injuries when they are younger, that never fully repair, only to be re-injured later. This compounds the negative side effects even more. The longer an athlete is on them, (even if on and off for 12 week cycles which is typical) the greater these negative impacts. I am not coming at this from an accusatory view, but from a realistic, educated one. These drugs are simply part of the game, and while this may sound cynical, just look at what's happened to the average player size in the last 30 years--and it's not really leveling off. I have seen it at all levels of sports, and I believe it to be the strongest contributor to injuries. As fans, we do not want to believe that the sports heroes we love are or have been doing this, and this allows us to suspend disbelief when we hear of guys throwing up 225lbs 20-40 times in the bench press, or squatting 750 lbs at a body weight of 205, or power cleaning for reps with 315lbs.


I agree completely that it's based entirely in science.

The human body can only take so much stress within any given window of time. For example a bone will break if there's enough acute pressure applied within a window of say, a microsecond.

There is naturally much more overall stress applied to each player's body throughout the season, but the time frame is key here. Too much stress in too small a window of time and you can start to see the injuries piling up. AKA overworking players.

McCarthy may have given a possible hint of this in his press conference last week. He said that the # of reps they're taking now in OTAs are down to the lower 20s as opposed to the mid 30's in previous seasons. Could this be because they believe they may be overworking players a bit too much before the season?

---

As a side note, it seems to me that being in Wisconsin wouldn't be as great for a player's health throughout the season due to limited sun exposure at that latitude as well. Sunlight, contrary to what some believe, is actually very good for the body and its immune system. The body can heal better with adequate sun exposure. A team like Green Bay automatically gets the short end of the stick in this area and it likely contributes to player health issues.


You're describing material fatigue (going to be my professional specialty, only on superpolymers not human muscles or bones)

In bones, it doesn't matter. With your bones, you're not applying a shear stress and there's no way in hell you're breaking one of your leg bones on a football field in tension or compression. It would take an unfathomable number of reps in a tiny time period. When you look at how the body repairs those bones with the formation of microfractures and hardened deposits, there's just no way you would get that kind of failure. Think about how much force your legs are absorbing when you jump off of a 10 foot wall, that's WAY more than you're generating shooting out of a 3 point stance. Lifting is pure tension and compression, your body is designed to handle that stress and I've never heard of a bone injury caused in tension or compression relating to lifting, assuming the bone was healthy.

The closest thing I can think of is like an avulsion where a piece of the bone tears away with the tendon and muscle rather than the tendon or muscle tearing, but that's very rare and is typically caused by failure at the tendon level rather than bone fatigue.

Now failure in shear happens but it doesn't happen due to fatigue, your bones aren't intended to absorb force like that. If Tamba Hali rolls into Derek Sherrod's lower leg at full speed, that's the end of that. There's nothing about fatigue going on there. It hasn't even been stressed.
=====================

Now muscles and tendons, you're correct. Fatigue can be an issue, there's no real compression aspect of muscles, but like with any polymer, fatigue needs to be considered. Whether or not our hamstring issues are a result of fatigue as a result of overworking is something I can't really say. There are so many other variables to be considered that nobody can make that claim.

I imagine with all the limits on practices that exist today, that fatigue is not a significant contributing factor. Likely we just have a bunch of guys that have a tendency to overstretch their hamstring when they run.


I agree with nearly everything you wrote, though that's largely because most of what you wrote doesn't address what I said. I bolded a portion above you seem to have missed.

There's really no reason to believe that the stress I'm talking of is no longer a factor when it comes to football practices and games. A player's body will naturally be less stressed while taking fewer reps.


I understand what you're saying, your example is just bad. Bones don't suffer from fatigue in such a way as to cause failure.

Bones break due to an applied shear stress. There's almost nothing you do in your life that applies a shear stress to your bones. Athletically every thing you hit your body with is either tension or compression, almost always compression.


To me it seems either you didn't read what I bolded or didn't understand it.

I was going to expand upon the example, but thought it would just convolute the point. Perhaps I should have.

Enough acute stress on a bone within the time frame of a microsecond can break the bone. Just as enough stress on a body's immune system within a certain time frame can lead to sickness. Just as enough stress on any part of the body within a certain time frame can lead to a greater chance of injury in that part of the body.


Stress is an applied force. It's not an unspecified concept meaning general wear and tear.

When you lift, you compress your bones. The force/stress applied along your bones is applied lengthwise. Same as when you push off the ground.

Your bones don't break when stressed along the length. Human bones are built to hold under extremely high compressive forces, and are brittle. Their ultimate strength is incredibly high. Think about how much force you push through your bones when you jump off of a fifteen foot wall, that's about how much is required to break an ankle. You won't get anywhere near that on a football field.

Bones break when force is applied perpendicularly. There's nothing you do in a normal day to apply stress perpendicularly to your bones. A broken bone is not affected in any way by how much stress is being placed on it due to an increased rep count because an increased rep count isn't applying any force perpendicularly.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Muscles are different. Muscles are EXTREMELY ductile and are routinely stretched to near their limits as a matter of their function. You pull a muscle when it's stretched beyond the maximum. Muscles are affected by rep counts because the maximum functional range decreases with usage. Also, as muscle fibers tear as part of everyday exercise (different from a muscle tearing in the injury sense) it loses strength and stability and you're likely to fall into an unsafe range of motion.
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Revel8


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
AlexGreen#20 wrote:
Revel8 wrote:
CactusPackFan wrote:
It's really a matter of science. Today's game is faster, the players are stronger, and the forces the athlete's bodies must endure, to include planting, re-direction, hitting, etc, are greater than ever. Sports specific training helps, but simply puts the athletes in these dangerous positions (albeit not at full speed) to train their bodies to accommodate these forces. I am not sure there is a real answer to why injuries occur. That said, (and please keep in mind I am not pointing fingers or casting accusations here), but the spread of performance enhancing drugs and various masking agents to get past the minimal random testing done by the NFL could possibly be a reason.

Take a look at two possible impacts of anabolic steroid usage, which I not only believe but KNOW is rampant in the NFL, NCAA, and even at the high school levels. There are two impacts these drugs have both mentally and physically on the body:

1. Because they allow quicker repair, and help athletes maintain a higher nitrogen balance (which fuels the anabolic, or building stage), athletes on these drugs often experience rapid increases in strength to the muscle bellies, but the tendons that support them are not ready for heavier loads. One of two things then happens--either the tendon gives way under load, or the muscle tears trying to take a higher portion of the load than it should. This could possibly be why we see so many hamstring tears in the NFL.

2. Mentally, the mindset is to increase the weight--If I know I am repairing faster than normal, then I will add more weight and pyramid as often as possible--this mental aspect could also contribute to injuries when the connective tissues and tendons simply are not ready for the added forces.

Lastly, I know that athletes are taking these at younger ages, during critical stages of their growth. They get injuries when they are younger, that never fully repair, only to be re-injured later. This compounds the negative side effects even more. The longer an athlete is on them, (even if on and off for 12 week cycles which is typical) the greater these negative impacts. I am not coming at this from an accusatory view, but from a realistic, educated one. These drugs are simply part of the game, and while this may sound cynical, just look at what's happened to the average player size in the last 30 years--and it's not really leveling off. I have seen it at all levels of sports, and I believe it to be the strongest contributor to injuries. As fans, we do not want to believe that the sports heroes we love are or have been doing this, and this allows us to suspend disbelief when we hear of guys throwing up 225lbs 20-40 times in the bench press, or squatting 750 lbs at a body weight of 205, or power cleaning for reps with 315lbs.


I agree completely that it's based entirely in science.

The human body can only take so much stress within any given window of time. For example a bone will break if there's enough acute pressure applied within a window of say, a microsecond.

There is naturally much more overall stress applied to each player's body throughout the season, but the time frame is key here. Too much stress in too small a window of time and you can start to see the injuries piling up. AKA overworking players.

McCarthy may have given a possible hint of this in his press conference last week. He said that the # of reps they're taking now in OTAs are down to the lower 20s as opposed to the mid 30's in previous seasons. Could this be because they believe they may be overworking players a bit too much before the season?

---

As a side note, it seems to me that being in Wisconsin wouldn't be as great for a player's health throughout the season due to limited sun exposure at that latitude as well. Sunlight, contrary to what some believe, is actually very good for the body and its immune system. The body can heal better with adequate sun exposure. A team like Green Bay automatically gets the short end of the stick in this area and it likely contributes to player health issues.


You're describing material fatigue (going to be my professional specialty, only on superpolymers not human muscles or bones)

In bones, it doesn't matter. With your bones, you're not applying a shear stress and there's no way in hell you're breaking one of your leg bones on a football field in tension or compression. It would take an unfathomable number of reps in a tiny time period. When you look at how the body repairs those bones with the formation of microfractures and hardened deposits, there's just no way you would get that kind of failure. Think about how much force your legs are absorbing when you jump off of a 10 foot wall, that's WAY more than you're generating shooting out of a 3 point stance. Lifting is pure tension and compression, your body is designed to handle that stress and I've never heard of a bone injury caused in tension or compression relating to lifting, assuming the bone was healthy.

The closest thing I can think of is like an avulsion where a piece of the bone tears away with the tendon and muscle rather than the tendon or muscle tearing, but that's very rare and is typically caused by failure at the tendon level rather than bone fatigue.

Now failure in shear happens but it doesn't happen due to fatigue, your bones aren't intended to absorb force like that. If Tamba Hali rolls into Derek Sherrod's lower leg at full speed, that's the end of that. There's nothing about fatigue going on there. It hasn't even been stressed.
=====================

Now muscles and tendons, you're correct. Fatigue can be an issue, there's no real compression aspect of muscles, but like with any polymer, fatigue needs to be considered. Whether or not our hamstring issues are a result of fatigue as a result of overworking is something I can't really say. There are so many other variables to be considered that nobody can make that claim.

I imagine with all the limits on practices that exist today, that fatigue is not a significant contributing factor. Likely we just have a bunch of guys that have a tendency to overstretch their hamstring when they run.


I agree with nearly everything you wrote, though that's largely because most of what you wrote doesn't address what I said. I bolded a portion above you seem to have missed.

There's really no reason to believe that the stress I'm talking of is no longer a factor when it comes to football practices and games. A player's body will naturally be less stressed while taking fewer reps.


I understand what you're saying, your example is just bad. Bones don't suffer from fatigue in such a way as to cause failure.

Bones break due to an applied shear stress. There's almost nothing you do in your life that applies a shear stress to your bones. Athletically every thing you hit your body with is either tension or compression, almost always compression.


To me it seems either you didn't read what I bolded or didn't understand it.

I was going to expand upon the example, but thought it would just convolute the point. Perhaps I should have.

Enough acute stress on a bone within the time frame of a microsecond can break the bone. Just as enough stress on a body's immune system within a certain time frame can lead to sickness. Just as enough stress on any part of the body within a certain time frame can lead to a greater chance of injury in that part of the body.


Stress is an applied force. It's not an unspecified concept meaning general wear and tear.

When you lift, you compress your bones. The force/stress applied along your bones is applied lengthwise. Same as when you push off the ground.

Your bones don't break when stressed along the length. Human bones are built to hold under extremely high compressive forces, and are brittle. Their ultimate strength is incredibly high. Think about how much force you push through your bones when you jump off of a fifteen foot wall, that's about how much is required to break an ankle. You won't get anywhere near that on a football field.

Bones break when force is applied perpendicularly. There's nothing you do in a normal day to apply stress perpendicularly to your bones. A broken bone is not affected in any way by how much stress is being placed on it due to an increased rep count because an increased rep count isn't applying any force perpendicularly.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Muscles are different. Muscles are EXTREMELY ductile and are routinely stretched to near their limits as a matter of their function. You pull a muscle when it's stretched beyond the maximum. Muscles are affected by rep counts because the maximum functional range decreases with usage. Also, as muscle fibers tear as part of everyday exercise (different from a muscle tearing in the injury sense) it loses strength and stability and you're likely to fall into an unsafe range of motion.


I agree with you. It seems our only disagreement would be on how we choose to define stress. And to that I say, to each his own.
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NAZPackFan


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than a stab at vitamin D due to northern latitudes there hasn't been much directed at why GB has had more injuries than other teams recently.

A 3 year statistical anomaly? Surely this has been debated here before and if McCarthy could put his finger on it I'd imagine he'd make changes as he sees fit.

If one were to split injuries into broken bones (freak accident) vs muscle tears and strains (possible overuse or poor training) would the Packers have more muscle related injuries than the rest of the league?

I for one don't follow other teams closely enough to even take a stab at an educated guess.
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in vince able


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was just an AR interview where he says shoulder looked great after the first x-ray. Then they realized they x-rayed the wrong shoulder. Just sayin.
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NormSizedMidget


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in vince able wrote:
There was just an AR interview where he says shoulder looked great after the first x-ray. Then they realized they x-rayed the wrong shoulder. Just sayin.


LOL, is that true? That's hilarious. I never heard that. Wow, just wow.
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Location: I took a football shaped pill and felt better.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who has two relatively healthy thumbs and likes that Peppers signing?









That guy Clay Mathews.
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in vince able


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Rodgers its true.

Question 1: Where does it hurt?

Didnt make it to question 2: Your right, or my right? lol
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