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Off Field with FS Jonathan Dowling Comes to Light
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6995
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is a maxed out frame? http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=546159&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=480

I'd be interested to hear your definition of 'maxed out' frame and how and where (anatomy wise) you would encourage a safety to bulk up as you probably have more experience with Football specifically than i do.
We always encourage. It doesn't always happen. I'll try to find some comparison pics. Mack is a naturally large man would could easily carry more weight.


Classic symptom of a maxed out frame: unusually long slender torso and hips are the same width, bobble head (unproportionate head to torso), unusually tiny pecs w/ defined balled deltoids, muscle gains are usually contained within the extremities not the torso, back, chest, hips.
I have never really tried to explain it this way and I don't think I'm doing it well but for those who have run track it's quickly identifiable. I heard this today and I tend to agree "You don't do much developing in the NFL just fine tuning. Players are who they are basically". Maybe we should just save the proverbial "Let's get this guy in and put 10-15 lbs on him"?
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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raidr4life


Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 5111
Location: Fresno, California
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
What is a maxed out frame? http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=546159&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=480

I'd be interested to hear your definition of 'maxed out' frame and how and where (anatomy wise) you would encourage a safety to bulk up as you probably have more experience with Football specifically than i do.
We always encourage. It doesn't always happen. I'll try to find some comparison pics. Mack is a naturally large man would could easily carry more weight.


Classic symptom of a maxed out frame: unusually long slender torso and hips are the same width, bobble head (unproportionate head to torso), unusually tiny pecs w/ defined balled deltoids, muscle gains are usually contained within the extremities not the torso, back, chest, hips.
I have never really tried to explain it this way and I don't think I'm doing it well but for those who have run track it's quickly identifiable. I heard this today and I tend to agree "You don't do much developing in the NFL just fine tuning. Players are who they are basically". Maybe we should just save the proverbial "Let's get this guy in and put 10-15 lbs on him"?
Yeah just like Jamarcus frame was maxed out but somehow he managed to add 60 pounds to it. Maxed out frame thing is over blown he could add weight to that frame no problem.
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Last edited by raidr4life on Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt there is many players who enter the NFL who's frame is maxed out. Professional training should else add extra muscle mass if needed.
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THE MAD STORK


Joined: 07 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
I doubt there is many players who enter the NFL who's frame is maxed out. Professional training should else add extra muscle mass if needed.


to add to that, these guys are 20-22 years old. I don't know for sure, but I feel like your body completely matures around 24-25.
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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Location: Wales, UK
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
What is a maxed out frame? http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=546159&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=480

I'd be interested to hear your definition of 'maxed out' frame and how and where (anatomy wise) you would encourage a safety to bulk up as you probably have more experience with Football specifically than i do.
We always encourage. It doesn't always happen. I'll try to find some comparison pics. Mack is a naturally large man would could easily carry more weight.


Classic symptom of a maxed out frame: unusually long slender torso and hips are the same width, bobble head (unproportionate head to torso), unusually tiny pecs w/ defined balled deltoids, muscle gains are usually contained within the extremities not the torso, back, chest, hips.
I have never really tried to explain it this way and I don't think I'm doing it well but for those who have run track it's quickly identifiable. I heard this today and I tend to agree "You don't do much developing in the NFL just fine tuning. Players are who they are basically". Maybe we should just save the proverbial "Let's get this guy in and put 10-15 lbs on him"?


Thanks Bagga!

I think we have a similar definition of 'frame' but disagree on the 'maxed out' part. I know it gets thrown around a lot that Player X can 'just add 15lbs' or whatever and it's clearly not that easy. IMHO Dowling has a frame that is not narrow that can easily carry another 10 to 15 lbs of mass when combined proportionally in the shoulders, chest, glutes, plus of course arms and legs (as the frame will effectively 'carry' the arms and legs - better the frame the more you can carry on arms and legs of course!)

Whether he'll have the discipline to be able to work the muscle on while increasing his flexibility to maintain durability all the while learning to play at NFL speed is the big question..............
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Obviously we still disagree as frame has absolutely nothing to do with arms and legs. Example: TB tried to inflate his weight with gains in his arms and legs and the combine but quickly lost the weight by his Pro Day. Not intentionally but a maxed out frame always has difficulty maintaining weight.

Obviously, JaMarcus did not have a maxed out frame when he entered the league. Guys who have been labeled "cannot maintain weight" maxed out. Guys who struggle to keep weight off it's because they can naturally carry more weight not just their poor nutrition or work ethic. A guy like Veldheer is an outlier as he seemed to grossly exceed his already rather large frame AND maintain the weight. Imo, he isn't doing it naturally. If he is legal his nutrition and regimen are impeccable, very very impressive either way.

Regardless, I couldn't care less. Continue to run around suggesting every guy can easily put on 10-15lbs and be the next Patrick Peterson, Bo Jackson or Sean Taylor (those guys didn't "put on weight" rather they are/were naturally large men with exceptional speed). Conversely, to what someone mentioned above MOST perimeter players have maxed out frames when they enter the league. It's not that many CBs or WRs putting on 10-15lbs coming into the league. I don't mind these conversations because I always learn something through explanation and my philosophy becomes more defined.
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
^ Obviously we still disagree as frame has absolutely nothing to do with arms and legs. Example: TB tried to inflate his weight with gains in his arms and legs and the combine but quickly lost the weight by his Pro Day. Not intentionally but a maxed out frame always has difficulty maintaining weight.

Obviously, JaMarcus did not have a maxed out frame when he entered the league. Guys who have been labeled "cannot maintain weight" maxed out. Guys who struggle to keep weight off it's because they can naturally carry more weight not just their poor nutrition or work ethic. A guy like Veldheer is an outlier as he seemed to grossly exceed his already rather large frame AND maintain the weight. Imo, he isn't doing it naturally. If he is legal his nutrition and regimen are impeccable, very very impressive either way.

Regardless, I couldn't care less. Continue to run around suggesting every guy can easily put on 10-15lbs and be the next Patrick Peterson, Bo Jackson or Sean Taylor (those guys didn't "put on weight" rather they are/were naturally large men with exceptional speed). Conversely, to what someone mentioned above MOST perimeter players have maxed out frames when they enter the league. It's not that many CBs or WRs putting on 10-15lbs coming into the league. I don't mind these conversations because I always learn something through explanation and my philosophy becomes more defined.


Me too! It's been very informative but I think we're still at a crossed wires...... I'm not for one minute suggesting that ANY PLAYER can put on a boat load of mass or can just bulk up his arms and legs to carry weight not on his frame.......for example you mentioned Aaron Donald before the draft as being potentially 'maxed out' and I'd agree from a standpoint that if he added any more mass to his frame I would think it would compromise his performance. You are totally correct that some guys (like Bo Jackson or Lamarr Houston, Khalil Mack) have naturally large frames and can carry a lot of extra mass.

One thing I do disagree on is that the relative muscle you can carry on your arms and legs effectively (in that it doesn't hinder flexibility or negatively affect durability) is related to the basic frame. A naturally large man like Bo Jackson can carry effortlessly huge arms and legs but DVD would be potentially be injury prone, inflexible and very less effective.

Anyway, I do see Dowling as having a lot of potential and the most important thing for him to get right is his mental acumen of the game. If he can do that a few pound here or there won't matter much. I do enjoy reading your breakdown of players so keep on keeping on Very Happy
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently have a junior FS that is about 6-1, 165 with plenty of room to grow and add bulk to his frame.

It has not stopped him from receiving several offers from places like Fresno State, New Mexico, Eastern Washington, UTEP, Nevada Reno, Northern Arizona, Montana and Air Force. And the Pac 12 schools will probably come around later. We have already talked to ASU, Washington and Oregon State.

If you can play, you can play. You don't have to be huge to be a playmaker. Just look at the Honey Badger.
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EricAllen21


Joined: 28 May 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
I currently have a junior FS that is about 6-1, 165 with plenty of room to grow and add bulk to his frame.

It has not stopped him from receiving several offers from places like Fresno State, New Mexico, Eastern Washington, UTEP, Nevada Reno, Northern Arizona, Montana and Air Force. And the Pac 12 schools will probably come around later. We have already talked to ASU, Washington and Oregon State.

If you can play, you can play. You don't have to be huge to be a playmaker. Just look at the Honey Badger.


who??? I'm from fresno state and follow the program
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
I currently have a junior FS that is about 6-1, 165 with plenty of room to grow and add bulk to his frame.

It has not stopped him from receiving several offers from places like Fresno State, New Mexico, Eastern Washington, UTEP, Nevada Reno, Northern Arizona, Montana and Air Force. And the Pac 12 schools will probably come around later. We have already talked to ASU, Washington and Oregon State.

If you can play, you can play. You don't have to be huge to be a playmaker. Just look at the Honey Badger.


True. If he wants to play in the NFL or at a top flight college though and plays at that mass or close to it he could compromise his performance and durability.

Not everyone has to go 'Beefcake' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgEam8QMKek but it usually helps to have a certain level of physicality if just from a self preservation perspective.
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DOCLEW 28


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kid had 135 tackles last season at 155 lbs. in a championship season. I don't think it will be a problem as the mass comes on naturally.
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DOCLEW 28


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EricAllen21 wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
I currently have a junior FS that is about 6-1, 165 with plenty of room to grow and add bulk to his frame.

It has not stopped him from receiving several offers from places like Fresno State, New Mexico, Eastern Washington, UTEP, Nevada Reno, Northern Arizona, Montana and Air Force. And the Pac 12 schools will probably come around later. We have already talked to ASU, Washington and Oregon State.

If you can play, you can play. You don't have to be huge to be a playmaker. Just look at the Honey Badger.


who??? I'm from fresno state and follow the program


Look it up on scout.com. It is definitely there.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imo, your son's frame does have room to grow. His shoulders round out rather than concave. Unfortunately, I never had a son to try this on but long ago it was recommended to me to build bulk: Cottage Cheese at night right before bed. Cottage Cheese has a ton of protein and processes slowly in the body. Maybe cut it with a few Mandarins to get it down. Let me know you findings if you try it.

Also, I went to ASU. Loved it! Great campus, social life but definitely not on Cal's level as far as education. If course work is a concern, keep in mind Cal was able to Lynch & DJax eligible. ASU isn't nearly as challenging but I never took courses at Cal.
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 1294
Location: Wales, UK
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Imo, your son's frame does have room to grow. His shoulders round out rather than concave. Unfortunately, I never had a son to try this on but long ago it was recommended to me to build bulk: Cottage Cheese at night right before bed. Cottage Cheese has a ton of protein and processes slowly in the body. Maybe cut it with a few Mandarins to get it down. Let me know you findings if you try it.

Also, I went to ASU. Loved it! Great campus, social life but definitely not on Cal's level as far as education. If course work is a concern, keep in mind Cal was able to Lynch & DJax eligible. ASU isn't nearly as challenging but I never took courses at Cal.


Ive heard the cottage cheese thing too, although a low fat cottage cheese only has about 10 to 12% protein content. Lean turkey breast for example is around 20%. The main thing is to keep a balanced diet but just up the calories a little and make sure you get plenty of protein bearing in mind the body will only digest 20 to 25 grammes of protein at a time depending upon metabolism, mass etc.

One thing that always gets forgotten is to increase flexibility to cope with muscle gains...........you wouldn't replace a 2 litre pinto with 5.7 big block and not upgrade the suspension, diff, engine mounts etc. Very Happy

Good Luck!
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bitty


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE MAD STORK wrote:
Raidin wrote:
I doubt there is many players who enter the NFL who's frame is maxed out. Professional training should else add extra muscle mass if needed.


to add to that, these guys are 20-22 years old. I don't know for sure, but I feel like your body completely matures around 24-25.


+1
A body will get denser as you mature (bone mass, muscle).
Now will he lose speed that's another story.
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