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With the 17th Pick, the Ravens select... CJ Mosley
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Do you guys think Ozzie is just lying to you when he says best player available.

I just wish we could have traded down. I wonder exactly how high ranked Mosley was on the board.

That said, I thought Fuller would be on the board... and I was confident he would be the pick if available. But he wasn't. I had him ranked higher than most though.

I think this pick means we should switch our base defense to a 43 look. I'd rather get Mosley/Smith/Brown all on the field than to have Canty on the field as a starter on the line. Ngata and Williams are both big and strong enough to keep blockers off of our LBers and let them work.

I think no question we're now a much better fit at 43 than at 34.


Or it gives us flexibility to do both... Hybrid baby

Yeah, we're always going to be a hybrid defense and run some 34 looks... but I'm talking about our base defense.

I think no question it makes more sense to get Brown/Mosley both on the field vs getting Chris Canty/Brandon Williams both on the field. My reservation against taking Mosley was that he wouldn't touch the field as a starter (or Brown wouldn't) in a 34 defense... and it would waste two high value picks. And we just signed Smith to a four year deal as well and so it wouldn't have made sense to take Mosley considering we're a 34 base defense... however, moving to a 43 based hybrid scheme would be a compromise to keep all those LB pieces usable and worth their value and on the field.

You consider also that Chris Canty only has one more year left on his deal and that our DL depth was thinned out a little with the loss of Arthur Jones and it's never been a better time for us to transition to a different base defense.

You figure that guys like Ozzie Newsome and Bill Belichick are always trying to stay a step ahead of the opposition. And you consider that both teams transitioned to a 34 back when most teams were running the 43 because it was easier to find 34 OLB for your pass rushing scheme and be successful than it was to find 43 DE talents... now you look at the NFL and most teams sort of becoming more 34 base oriented in their hybrid schemes and now you see Belichick switching to a 43 and now perhaps the Ravens could see this as a prime opportunity to switch strategies as more and more 43 DL talents likely become available and fall down draft boards, making it easier to have usable talent fall to you at a later pick.

Thus switching to a 43 base CREATES value for our team down the road. But I don't know. This is just me trying to best rationalize this Mosley selection and what it could mean and how I think it best fits us.

You also look at the fact that our secondary coach and Assistant HC has been a big time user of the 43 in the past... and it makes even more sense. I think that's probably the thinking from the team.


This is a really good post. The more I think about it, by the way, the more I like this pick for the direction of our defense. At first I was really wondering how we would use him for the next two years (I'm fine with the look to the future aspect). In a 3-4 Smith/Brown should really be fine inside. Obviously you need to rotate, but you don't use a 1st round pick on a third ILB for rotating.

The more I think about it, though, especially the 4-3 aspect, the more it makes some sense. I think Brown-Smith-Mosley have the potential to be an elite Will-Mike-Sam grouping respectively. With Suggs and Doom being able to both put their hands in the dirt (along with McPhee if more size is needed in place of Doom) as well as stand up in the 3-4, our D has a ton of versatility. Add Ngata's fit in any scheme, the potential of Williams and Canty's ability to contribute in a variety of ways, and things look pretty good. Upshaw can rotate in as a 3-4 run-stopping OLB or play with his hand in the dirt. Then you've got Simon who can be a rotational guy inside in the 3-4 as well as an occasional DE/OLB. That's not to forget that Mosley can still rotate in 3-4 and Nickel looks to help keep Brown/Smith fresh (and break him in as a rookie).

Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself to like this pick, or maybe it is really better than my initial reaction (didn't hate it, there just may have been better ways to go). Honestly, I think we may look back and be happy with the direction Ozzie went with this pick, especially 2 or 3 years down the road.

Complete side note, my old roommate was trying to trash talk (all in good fun) and say he was another Rolando McLain. Everything I've heard and read about him indicates the exact opposite. It's like 1% of my overall opinion on the thing, but I also really liked that Ray seemed to be a big fan of the pick. He hasn't shied away from being respectfully critical of moves made by the org in the past.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:

Complete side note, my old roommate was trying to trash talk (all in good fun) and say he was another Rolando McLain. Everything I've heard and read about him indicates the exact opposite. It's like 1% of my overall opinion on the thing, but I also really liked that Ray seemed to be a big fan of the pick. He hasn't shied away from being respectfully critical of moves made by the org in the past.

Yeah... I get that he's just trash talking and stuff but... McClain and Mosley couldn't be further apart in how they play. I had only watched a little bit of McClain's film because he wasn't thought to be in our pick range and we didn't have a major need, but what I watched, I wasn't very impressed with at the time. I thought he was a stiff thumper option that didn't attack the LOS well. He was slow from sideline to sideline and was only adequate at taking on blocks. I didn't think he was anything better than above average as a run stopper. But his leadership intangibles were being slobbered over by the media. I chalked my opinion of him up to only watching very little of him and assumed he must've been much better in his other tape. But in hindsight that most likely wasn't the case.

Mosley on the other hand isn't a thumper. Though I think he does a very good job of taking on blocks for a WILB type, he's not great, but is much better at it than most LBers his size. He does a nice job of flowing from sideline to sideline. He's very good and experienced as a coverage LBer.

My only concern with him was that I didn't see him attacking the LOS as much as I think an elite collegiate LBer prospect should. He does flow downhill, but That's likely an Alabama teaching, but I prefer that aggressiveness to be coached out of a player and not the other way around. Though Mosley is still plenty aggressive. Another concern is that I think Mosley is a superior coverage LBer to Arthur Brown... I think he's an inferior blitzer. I don't think his initial explosion is great enough nor his timing to be as effective in that role.

I see a prime Jon Beason when I look at Mosley. Will excel at both ILB and OLB. Very nice cover LBer option that makes big plays in coverage but doesn't blitz the passer as well as you'd like. If he can improve on his pass rushing skillset than I liken him to Navorro Bowman.

Just for reference, I think Arthur Brown compares favorably to Daryl Washington with his pass rushing ability inside along with instincts and pass coverage strengths to boot.

So if both players realize their potential we could be looking at:
Jon Beason - Daryl Smith - Daryl Washington... That'd definitely be a very stacked LBer squad. Arguably best in the league.
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aussie_raven77


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
So if both players realize their potential we could be looking at:
Jon Beason - Daryl Smith - Daryl Washington... That'd definitely be a very stacked LBer squad. Arguably best in the league.


Well watching Mosley's interview he said he wanted to mold his game around Luke Kuechly so that's also not a horrible outcome at all, but I do think it really means a shift towards a hybrid 3-4 and 4-3 to try and utilise all our personnel. I want to see how Upshaw is used this year because I'm slightly concerned about his playing time
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcfields wrote:
I was not happy when Dallas took Martin. Then I was confident Clinton-Dix would be the pick. That said, I have to agree with something DBull said not long ago, "It always seems like Clinton-Dix arrives a millisecond too late" (paraphrasing).

I had Mosley rated #14 overall so there's definitely value in the pick. Unfortunately, it doesn't fill an immediate need. That fine though.

This is one of those "In Ozzie We Trust" pick. The last two times I felt this way about a Ravens 1st round pick the players were Ben Grubbs and Ed Reed. So...


I was the opposite with Martin. I was so happy when Dallas took him because I didn't want to see us take him at 17. He's never going to play tackle in the NFL and I didn't want to have to move Osemele to tackle and take a guard with the 17th overall pick in a draft this deep. We can take a RT or guard later in this draft. And then I was pretty sure the pick was going to be Mosley or Clinton- Dix and Mosley was the better player from Alabama so I kind of suspected he would be the pick when we were on the clock because we usually go BPA.

I'm actually really happy with this pick. Mosley was the only LB I liked better than Arthur Brown last year and I was kind of sad when he didn't come out. He's going to be a Pro Bowler. Sure, it isn't a need right now, but he's going to eventually emerge as the next leader of this defense to replace Ray. Arthur Brown isn't going to be that type of vocal leader, he's a leader by example so they compliment each other pretty well in the same way that Ray and Ed did as defensive leaders. And they are both film junkies with great work ethics to be an example for the rest of the team. In a few years, these two are going to be an amazing duo.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAVINGMADD wrote:
dcfields wrote:
I was not happy when Dallas took Martin. Then I was confident Clinton-Dix would be the pick. That said, I have to agree with something DBull said not long ago, "It always seems like Clinton-Dix arrives a millisecond too late" (paraphrasing).

I had Mosley rated #14 overall so there's definitely value in the pick. Unfortunately, it doesn't fill an immediate need. That fine though.

This is one of those "In Ozzie We Trust" pick. The last two times I felt this way about a Ravens 1st round pick the players were Ben Grubbs and Ed Reed. So...


I was the opposite with Martin. I was so happy when Dallas took him because I didn't want to see us take him at 17. He's never going to play tackle in the NFL and I didn't want to have to move Osemele to tackle and take a guard with the 17th overall pick in a draft this deep. We can take a RT or guard later in this draft. And then I was pretty sure the pick was going to be Mosley or Clinton- Dix and Mosley was the better player from Alabama so I kind of suspected he would be the pick when we were on the clock because we usually go BPA.

I'm actually really happy with this pick. Mosley was the only LB I liked better than Arthur Brown last year and I was kind of sad when he didn't come out. He's going to be a Pro Bowler. Sure, it isn't a need right now, but he's going to eventually emerge as the next leader of this defense to replace Ray. Arthur Brown isn't going to be that type of vocal leader, he's a leader by example so they compliment each other pretty well in the same way that Ray and Ed did as defensive leaders. And they are both film junkies with great work ethics to be an example for the rest of the team. In a few years, these two are going to be an amazing duo.

Yeah hopefully a few years is sooner because of a 43 switch vs later because we wait until Smith packs them up and stick with the 34.

But the later point of yours brings me to my second biggest concern with Mosley (the first being that we draft him and stay a 34 base team that struggles to get both Mosley and Brown on the field at the same time), if BOTH Mosley and Brown realize their potential... that's going to be a lot of money we'll have to invest in the LB spot. Which isn't a big deal... just something I've been thinking about.

Though I suppose if we use the 5th year option on Mosley... and with Brown only having three years of service left on his deal... they could end up being two years apart. But no question that if successful, whatever Brown makes will definitely influence the kind of deal that Mosley could end up getting.
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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I was hoping to come in here and see a load of people enthusing about how great this pick is, to make me feel better about it.

As it is, I just feel underwhelmed and a little concerned. I've read some stuff about Mosley's health and the amount of football he's already played at Alabama, as well as the less than stellar history of highly rated Alabama prospects, over the last few years.

Mosley's that much better than Clinton-Dix or Pryor? Either of whom would fit an area of immediate need. And Jimmie Ward is gone too, who were only too happy to take Safeties in the 1st, two years in a row.

I just don't think top 20 is good value for any ILB, unless he's an immediate gamechanger in the Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis mould. I don't think Mosley is as good as that.

Regarding the Cowboys and Zack Martin, I'm thinking that perhaps the Ravens just didn't think they'd take him. It was already a surprise that Martin got to #16, but it seems like no one expected the Cowboys to go for him, there. It was all Manziel, FS and general defensive needs that people were talking about.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mancunian Raven wrote:
Well I was hoping to come in here and see a load of people enthusing about how great this pick is, to make me feel better about it.

As it is, I just feel underwhelmed and a little concerned. I've read some stuff about Moseley's health and the amount of football he's already played at Alabama, as well as the less than stellar history of highly rated Alabama prospects, over the last few years.

Moseley's that much better than Clinton-Dix or Pryor? Either of whom would fit an area of immediate need. And Jimmie Ward is gone too, who were only too happy to take Safeties in the 1st, two years in a row.

I just don't think top 20 is good value for any ILB, unless he's an immediate gamechanger in the Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis mould. I don't think Moseley is as good as that.

Regarding the Cowboys and Zack Martin, I'm thinking that perhaps the Ravens just didn't think they'd take him. It was already a surprise that Martin got to #16, but it seems like no one expected the Cowboys to go for him, there. It was all Manziell, FS and general defensive needs that people were talking about.

Yes, yes he was. As a player, as a value, as everything. HCD is the one of the most overrated players to go in the 1st round... if not THE most overrated (I'd have to think about that more).

Calvin Pryor on the other hand... I think Mosley is the better player, definitely... but unless we switch to the 43 to properly make use of all our LB talents... then I would've preferred we went with Pryor or Dennard with that 17th pick. As either would immediately contribute. And two years of production from a player that is a top 15-20 option I'd put beyond either Mosley or Brown sitting out two seasons before they get their big break.

In two years we could've added a SB title due to a lockdown secondary as opposed to keeping Mosley/Brown interning on the bench.

The average NFL career is what, 7 years? We waste 2-3 years from Mosley or Brown respectively and that's half a career for most players. Consider also that a rookie contract is the most efficient time to have a star player... because of the value they present... and wasting half a rookie contract makes such a choice even less valuable in my estimation.

If we can utilize all three of Smith, Brown, and Mosley in a base defense though... I definitely think Mosley's value was great.

Much of the issue with Alabama defenders have been because Alabama players, while tough and technically sound, aren't particularly athletic and/or are very much beat up. Part of the issue is also hype created because of the "intangibles" Bama players bring to the table. Mosley staying for his senior season while still maintaining his high regard helps to disprove the unnecessary hype. Mosley has been beat up, but no more than most powerhouse SEC programs. And lastly, Mosley is one of the most athletic Bama' defenders in recent memory. He's arguably just as athletic as HCD, yet with more mass.

So the concerns around past Bama' prospects don't really apply as much with CJ.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAVINGMADD wrote:

I'm actually really happy with this pick. Mosley was the only LB I liked better than Arthur Brown last year and I was kind of sad when he didn't come out. He's going to be a Pro Bowler. Sure, it isn't a need right now, but he's going to eventually emerge as the next leader of this defense to replace Ray. Arthur Brown isn't going to be that type of vocal leader, he's a leader by example so they compliment each other pretty well in the same way that Ray and Ed did as defensive leaders. And they are both film junkies with great work ethics to be an example for the rest of the team. In a few years, these two are going to be an amazing duo.

I think I had Brown considered higher, but I do know I was a fan of Mosley. Mosley is the surer wrapup tackler, but Brown is more athletic and a better blitzer. I'd give him the slight edge... based on play. Add vocal leadership into the equation... and it's probably back to a toss up.

I'm sort of interested in seeing what I had to say about the two players a year ago.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



diamondbull424 wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Do you guys think Ozzie is just lying to you when he says best player available.

I just wish we could have traded down. I wonder exactly how high ranked Mosley was on the board.

That said, I thought Fuller would be on the board... and I was confident he would be the pick if available. But he wasn't. I had him ranked higher than most though.

I think this pick means we should switch our base defense to a 43 look. I'd rather get Mosley/Smith/Brown all on the field than to have Canty on the field as a starter on the line. Ngata and Williams are both big and strong enough to keep blockers off of our LBers and let them work.

I think no question we're now a much better fit at 43 than at 34.


Or it gives us flexibility to do both... Hybrid baby

Yeah, we're always going to be a hybrid defense and run some 34 looks... but I'm talking about our base defense.

I think no question it makes more sense to get Brown/Mosley both on the field vs getting Chris Canty/Brandon Williams both on the field. My reservation against taking Mosley was that he wouldn't touch the field as a starter (or Brown wouldn't) in a 34 defense... and it would waste two high value picks. And we just signed Smith to a four year deal as well and so it wouldn't have made sense to take Mosley considering we're a 34 base defense... however, moving to a 43 based hybrid scheme would be a compromise to keep all those LB pieces usable and worth their value and on the field.

You consider also that Chris Canty only has one more year left on his deal and that our DL depth was thinned out a little with the loss of Arthur Jones and it's never been a better time for us to transition to a different base defense.

You figure that guys like Ozzie Newsome and Bill Belichick are always trying to stay a step ahead of the opposition. And you consider that both teams transitioned to a 34 back when most teams were running the 43 because it was easier to find 34 OLB for your pass rushing scheme and be successful than it was to find 43 DE talents... now you look at the NFL and most teams sort of becoming more 34 base oriented in their hybrid schemes and now you see Belichick switching to a 43 and now perhaps the Ravens could see this as a prime opportunity to switch strategies as more and more 43 DL talents likely become available and fall down draft boards, making it easier to have usable talent fall to you at a later pick.

Thus switching to a 43 base CREATES value for our team down the road. But I don't know. This is just me trying to best rationalize this Mosley selection and what it could mean and how I think it best fits us.

You also look at the fact that our secondary coach and Assistant HC has been a big time user of the 43 in the past... and it makes even more sense. I think that's probably the thinking from the team.


Yeah, I immediately thought we should be switching to a 43 base now but then I remembered Pees is still the DC. Mad
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
RAVINGMADD wrote:

I'm actually really happy with this pick. Mosley was the only LB I liked better than Arthur Brown last year and I was kind of sad when he didn't come out. He's going to be a Pro Bowler. Sure, it isn't a need right now, but he's going to eventually emerge as the next leader of this defense to replace Ray. Arthur Brown isn't going to be that type of vocal leader, he's a leader by example so they compliment each other pretty well in the same way that Ray and Ed did as defensive leaders. And they are both film junkies with great work ethics to be an example for the rest of the team. In a few years, these two are going to be an amazing duo.

I think I had Brown considered higher, but I do know I was a fan of Mosley. Mosley is the surer wrapup tackler, but Brown is more athletic and a better blitzer. I'd give him the slight edge... based on play. Add vocal leadership into the equation... and it's probably back to a toss up.

I'm sort of interested in seeing what I had to say about the two players a year ago.

I was curious, so I went way back to Oct 20, 2012 to see my thoughts on both players...
diamondbull424 wrote:
1. Manti Te'O, ND (4.59e forty)-
His coverage skills have really improved over his 2011 film. He's no question the top ILB in this draft. He's strong and can hold up to blocks, he has a thumper mentality as he really attacks the LOS well. He has the athleticism and instincts that allow him to be aggressive attacking the LOS without being exposed by cutbacks. I love that he's not waiting for plays to come to him. Top 20 talent.

2. Arthur Brown, K State (4.47e forty)-
This guy is a player. He's not very big, but neither was Lewis this season. Brown is the best athlete/instincts combination of this group. He has legit high 4.4 to low 4.5 kind of speed... and his quickness looks to be a strength. This is a guy that trusts his eyes and tends to shift between OL to make plays. Even at his size, when he gets blocked, he's able to shed well and make plays. Late 1st/Early 2nd.

3. CJ Mosley, Alabama (4.53e forty)-
Mosley is a beast as well. I think he's in between Brown and Te'O in terms of overall athleticism, but not much separates the three. Mosley is similar to Brown in his ability to take on and shed blockers. Mosley is the better form tackler over Brown, but appears to be less agile. Mosley is also less adept at attacking the LOS and shooting through gaps when compared to Brown from what I see on tape.

That said Mosley and Brown actually look pretty similar to me in terms of their tape, but what separates the two and has Mosley placed lower than Brown is the fact that Mosley simply looks less "natural" as a mover on the field. He just looks kind of awkward as he's running around. He takes longer strides and sort of lands on his feet weird as he runs. This is probably the weirdest reason to ever lower one player below another, but for two players so close... something's got to give and I just can't help but feel like Mosley's less than ideal running motion will make him less durable at the next level. Late 1st/Early 2nd.

This was also before Mosley's senior season improvements. I think he improved on shedding blocks. He's also probably a more dependable "vocal" leader.

I'm also sure Mosley would've closed out the years as my 2nd ranked ILB below Brown had he declared. I got caught up in the Te'O hype enough at that point. I eventually changed my mind and lowered him, so I can only assume Mosley would have been right there with Brown for my favorite ILB prospect in the 2013 draft.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mancunian Raven wrote:
Well I was hoping to come in here and see a load of people enthusing about how great this pick is, to make me feel better about it.

As it is, I just feel underwhelmed and a little concerned. I've read some stuff about Mosley's health and the amount of football he's already played at Alabama, as well as the less than stellar history of highly rated Alabama prospects, over the last few years.

Mosley's that much better than Clinton-Dix or Pryor? Either of whom would fit an area of immediate need. And Jimmie Ward is gone too, who were only too happy to take Safeties in the 1st, two years in a row.

I just don't think top 20 is good value for any ILB, unless he's an immediate gamechanger in the Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis mould. I don't think Mosley is as good as that.

Regarding the Cowboys and Zack Martin, I'm thinking that perhaps the Ravens just didn't think they'd take him. It was already a surprise that Martin got to #16, but it seems like no one expected the Cowboys to go for him, there. It was all Manziel, FS and general defensive needs that people were talking about.


This is how I feel, too. I don't see a superstar in Mosley, I see at most an above-average linebacker and to me, that's not worth a 1st round borderline top-15 pick. But, we'll have to just wait and see. I would like this pick a lot more if we switched to the 4-3 and got him and Brown on the field at the same time and went away from the Josh Bynes experiment.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a fan. Clinton Dix would have been my choice as I think he'd have been the perfect fit with Elam, and I think he'll be a better pro than college player. But I think Mosley is just as good of a prospect, and I'm intrigued to see how the rotation will play out at ILB. You know that he was high on our board as well.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Do you guys think Ozzie is just lying to you when he says best player available.


I think you nailed it. Everyone wants a GM that takes BPA, but we're all a bit disappointed when BPA doesn't happen to be a huge need.

I've said during the whole draft process that with this high a pick, we need to try for a blue chip player, someone we can't get with later positioned picks. I don't think Martin and especially the top safeties were anything special. I didn't watch enough of Mosley to form an opinion on whether he is, but I have no problem with the position choice. We can fill holes with later picks, but this high it has to be BPA.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats gentlemen on what I believe to be a very good selection for Baltimore.

This, imo, is your future Defensive Leader.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
Congrats gentlemen on what I believe to be a very good selection for Baltimore.

This, imo, is your future Defensive Leader.


Well we are looking good at ILB for the future. As for this year, it remains to be seen how we use the 3 ILB's we have.
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