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Beating Teams Like the Niners, 'Hawks, Panthers
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Jazzaloha


Joined: 20 Nov 2013
Posts: 1168
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Beating Teams Like the Niners, 'Hawks, Panthers Reply with quote

Here's the real question I wanted to ask (which I couldn't fit in the thread title): If the best teams are like the Niners, Seahawks, Panthers--i.e., great physical defenses, with strong running games--what is the best way to respond to that as a team? By this I mean what type of team should you try to build in order to challenge and surpass those teams?

The two approaches that come to mind (and maybe there's only two) is that you can either

a)Build up your offense--specifically in terms of making it unstoppable.

or

b)Try to build up your defense to a similar level as those teams (and maybe even developing a better run game)

Let me give a specific example. Some people say that the Lions should trade up and try to draft Sammy Watkins. With Watkins, Megatron, and Tate (not to mention the other weapons on the team), the offense would be hard to stop. It's a tantalizing proposition, and I can see the appeal.

The other route is that you try to beef up the defense and get it to the level of the best teams in the league. I'm not sure how feasible that is, but the idea here is that in a contest between a great defense and a great offense, the team with a great defense has the advantage (especially in the playoffs). (I suspect this point is probably going to be the bone of contention.)

So, for the sake of argument, let's assume that teams like the Seahawks and Niners are the best teams in the league. How would you build your team to beat them? (And if you want to talk about specific changes about your favorite team, that's cool. But I'm also interested in discussing this topic in a more general way.)
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Nuke


Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Win in the trenches and have a good QB /thread
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cause TO's. Don't commit TO's.
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FClGhto1vIg
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I don't understand most of that, but I can tell it's probably inaccurate.
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Jazzaloha


Joined: 20 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not really thinking about tactics so much as personnel. To be more specific, I thought of this question mostly in the context of the NFC and the off season moves teams have made. The teams that are bolstering their defense to try and match the defense of the top teams are the ones that I think are making the right move.

Here's another example. The Packers could try to make their offense more potent or strengthen their defense. If you know you have to beat go through Seattle or the Niners, I'd going to try and get players to build my defense (although maybe the Packers just need to be healthy?). The Saints are similar. Should they try to get players to strengthen their high-powered passing offense, or should they get players put their defense on the same level as the Niners and 'Hawks?

I'd also seriously considering getting personnel to build a run game, especially against the Seahawks. It's going to be tough trying to beat them by passing the ball 40-50 times a game.
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strat1080


Joined: 16 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jazzaloha wrote:
I'm not really thinking about tactics so much as personnel. To be more specific, I thought of this question mostly in the context of the NFC and the off season moves teams have made. The teams that are bolstering their defense to try and match the defense of the top teams are the ones that I think are making the right move.

Here's another example. The Packers could try to make their offense more potent or strengthen their defense. If you know you have to beat go through Seattle or the Niners, I'd going to try and get players to build my defense (although maybe the Packers just need to be healthy?). The Saints are similar. Should they try to get players to strengthen their high-powered passing offense, or should they get players put their defense on the same level as the Niners and 'Hawks?

I'd also seriously considering getting personnel to build a run game, especially against the Seahawks. It's going to be tough trying to beat them by passing the ball 40-50 times a game.


A lot of it is simply mindset. Teams have to be physical in the trenches and be able to take some punches. Its also not simply making your offense more potent. Its making it potent in the right areas. If you simply load up in your passing game, the teams with the monster pass rush will get to your QB. You have to be able to counter different angles that a team can attack you. Green Bay has learned that you can't beat the good playoff defenses by airing it out. They've been there and done that. They have been searching for a run game for several years and finally found it last year. You have to be balanced. When you play teams like Seattle and SF and you have a one dimensional offense they smell blood in the water and will really go after your QB. They will really pin your ears back if you don't threaten them with any kind of run game. Pete Carroll was recorded on NFL Sound FX during the Super Bowl saying, "These guys don't have a run game, don't even worry about it. If they run it, just go up and make the tackle". I never really thought Denver would matchup well with Seattle.

Like you say about Green Bay, they have to be healthy. They have been among the most injured teams in back to back seasons and really 3 out of the last 4 seasons. They quietly put together a very balanced offense last year. Eddie Lacy was hammering teams and was forcing teams to commit to stopping the run a bit more. Aaron Rodgers was finally seeing more traditional defensive looks that he hadn't seen in years. He had a monster YPA in the games he played last year as a result.

Aaron Rodgers became a poster child for defensive coordinators coming up with exotic defensive looks aimed at stopping pass offenses because the Packers had a historically significant stretch of futile rushing effectiveness. They went over2 entire seasons without having a single 100 yard rusher in a game. Teams were coming up with elaborate schemes and exotic defensive looks to stop Aaron Rodgers. That is what happens when you have no run game to speak of.

I hear people say all the time that its a pass happy and QB driven league. I'm not sure that's really the case. The QBs that have been considered the best QBs of the last decade in Manning and Brady have won one Super Bowl each in the last 10 yeras. Rodgers and Brees have also one one Super Bowl each. You have to be a scrappy physical team that knows how to win in many different fashions. That is why we've seen some teams with somewhat less than elite QBs win Super Bowls in recent years. Green Bay won the Super Bowl in the season in which their offensive scoring production was its least during the Aaron Rodgers era. That was far from Aaron Rodgers' best season as a QB. They won because they had a physical team that could win ugly or blow teams out. Its mostly about mindset and fundamentals. I never gave Denver much of a chance against Seattle because contrary to popular belief that "greatest offense ever" was highly prone to mistakes. They led the NFL in lost fumbles.

Its absolutely amazing to me that so many were surprised at the outcome of the Super Bowl. You pit a turnover prone offense against the NFL's best defense at taking the ball away and you are going to have turnovers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. I obviously never predicted that the score would be that lobsided but I was fairly confident that Seattle would win that game convincingly and even posted that I would be very surprised if Denver won. They just didn't have the team that could compete with a team like Seattle. Denver just doesn't play teams like that in the AFC. They are finesse team. The media hypes up the teams putting up gaudy offensive numbers every year but the physical team will always beat the finesse team.

Another thing is that nothing ever remains static in the NFL. What will be "the model" one year will change the next year. Teams don't tend to stay at the top for very long in the NFL. In this era its just too hard to keep the same team around for very long.
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Zithers


Joined: 15 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my #1 need for the panthers has been a big, physical wideout to contend with richard sherman and a top flight corner who can enhance the defense (brees and brady shredded our secondary last year). and also OT because lol our OTs.

gotta do what we can to match up with the best of the best
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SHONUFF


Joined: 16 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: D Reply with quote

Sherman salivates every time he's facing a big wr, few guys in the nfl can beat him on a jump ball..

Build a stingy defense and tough offensive line and try and run the ball.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't Denver just have the best offense in NFL history, at least statistically? I mean, how much more unstoppable is an offense going to get?
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ThePrimeTime12


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a defense that can shut them down or keep you in the game and have a balanced offensive game. Against Seattle, you want to be able to run better and against SF and Carolina, you want to be able to pass better. You still need both though.

Denver got destroyed cause Seattle played the pass every single time because Moreno is no threat due to his lack of explosiveness.

Green Bay can probably destroy all of those defenses due to the addition of Lacy and Rodgers of course but it is too bad GB can't defend even them since they can't defend the read option even when they know it. It is kind of sad really.

SF runs the read option. GB has the defense built to play read option, know its coming, Kaepernick runs the read option and takes it off for a TD and kisses his biceps.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Green Bay can probably destroy all of those defenses due to the addition of Lacy and Rodgers of course but it is too bad GB can't defend even them since they can't defend the read option even when they know it. It is kind of sad really.


Wait...didn't the 49ers just beat the Packers in the playoffs, or did I dream that? Haven't the 49ers beaten the Packers like the last 4-5 times they've played?
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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Healthy Gronk and I take the Patriots the majority of the time. Offenses got predictable the last few years and we're seeing a reset. Don't worry a new offense will come out and make these defenses look mortal again.
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MNPackfan32


Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Balance and versatility are key. Just as an example, Aaron Rodgers basically commands respect in the form of playing Cover 2 over the top. It isn't very safe to have just one defender deep against him. Dropping back 2 safeties creates a softer box, and a guy like Eddie Lacy can benefit from that. Then you use motion and a multiple weapon like Randall Cobb to either run or pass the ball.

The biggest thing with the Seahawks is staying committed to the running game. As soon as you become 1 dimensional it is all over. That is what happened to the Broncos in the Super Bowl. When the Seahawks know you are going to pass, you are screwed.

I think the Packers and the Patriots have started a good foundation to combat these guys, elite QB's with good physical RB's (Lacy, Ridley) and multiple weapons (Cobb, Vereen) and both have been investing in their defense to try to keep the game close. Both teams probably need 1 or 2 more offensive weapons to really get after those defenses. Not saying NE/GB would beat SF/SEA but I think they have laid a good foundation to try to compete with them. IMO Denver is too pass oriented on offense.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


Joined: 03 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Seahawks struggle most when going up against mobile QB's, and fast receivers who can get behind that secondary with a vertical passing attack. That defense dominates against QB's who are strictly pocket passers and especially when those QB's try to use a horizontal passing attack to win.

Just take a look at their losses last season:

Lost to the Colts: Mobile QB, and a small fast receiver in TY Hilton who embarrassed Sherman that game with 140 yards and 2 TD's, with some big plays deep.

Lost to the 49ers: Mobile QB, no small receiver, but the QB often buys enough time for his receivers to create separation and get open against this stanch secondary.

Lost to the Cardinals: Not a mobile QB, BUT the Cardinals definitely didn't win because of Palmer's superior pocket QB skills (he had 4 interceptions this game). However, one of the biggest plays in the game came on 3rd and 3 with 6 minutes to play in the 4th quarter. The Cardinals were trailing, and on their own 27 yard line. On this play Palmer is able to avoid the rush, escape the pocket, and keep the play alive using his LEGS and completes a throw to Jake Ballard on the sideline for the first down. Also, the game-winning TD was a result of Michael Floyd being able to get behind Seattle's defense and catch a 40 yard pass for the score.

They also had trouble with the Redskins in the 2012 playoffs before RGIII's injury.

Obviously having a good defense and a strong running game helps, but I think this defenses' true Achilles heel is going up against QB's who are able to use their mobility to buy time behind the line of scrimmage and find an open receiver streaking down the field. I think Seattle's offense would give Seattle's defense nightmares.

This team embarrassed the big-named pocket QB's (statues) they faced last year such as Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning and Matt Ryan.

This is why I think the Seahawks will have trouble this year with the 49ers, the Packers, the Cowboys, the Redskins and the Panthers (if they get some competent receivers).
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Last edited by HTTRG3Dynasty on Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ThePrimeTime12


Joined: 11 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:

Green Bay can probably destroy all of those defenses due to the addition of Lacy and Rodgers of course but it is too bad GB can't defend even them since they can't defend the read option even when they know it. It is kind of sad really.


Wait...didn't the 49ers just beat the Packers in the playoffs, or did I dream that? Haven't the 49ers beaten the Packers like the last 4-5 times they've played?

Yes, but it is not because they have been shut down which is my point. It is because they have cannot defend the read option even when they see it coming. Packers have scored and played offense fine in those games although they did kind of struggle in the 1st half this post-season.

Packers can score on any of them, it is too bad those teams will score right back on them.
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