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Trade Down & pick up Ryan Shazier OLB Ohio State
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Mayhem50


Joined: 28 Apr 2009
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Location: Beverly Hills, Mi.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you maybe right on that point. I'm hoping we don't wait to long to pick a LB who only good enough for Special Teams. If Tullock or Levy get injured, we're screwed without a good back up or platoon LB.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mayhem50 wrote:
And you maybe right on that point. I'm hoping we don't wait to long to pick a LB who only good enough for Special Teams. If Tullock or Levy get injured, we're screwed without a good back up or platoon LB.
good thing we have Ashlee Palmer on the roster
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1King wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
That's what they said about Chris Spilman. 4 other linebackers taken before him. The Lions got lucky they got him. He made an impact and put up numbers far beyond the other 4 guys picked ahead of him. Who's to say that Ryan Shazier doesn't come in become a starter. Has shown in college he can be a sack machine and cover LB. Not just a guy who gets the stop 4 to 5 yds past they line of scrimmage like we have now. We have gotten into a rut of thinking everyone has to develop and veteran players can't be replaced. I think he can contribute now and not just part time.


So he's going to come in and provide a significant upgrade to 113 tackles, 15 passes defensed, and 6 interceptions? I'm not saying he won't be a good player, just that we have bigger needs to address. And the comparison to Spielman is a poor one. Spielman came into a team with a definite need at LB, increased by the 3-4 defense we ran then. Now we run a base 4-3 and stay in nickel or dime 2/3 of the time. Our top 2 LBs both had over 110 tackles last year on a top 10 run defense. OLB in the first round just doesn't make sense.


Does he have to? I know we all hope that everyone we pick makes an imediate impact but thats never the case. Suh was the last to really do it consistantly. Ansah was close but others have sat, learned and filled in when needed. Levy may not be here forever, he may regress, or Shazier shows he is good enough to cover TE's and can be on the field more.

I am not saying I think this is the best idea, but even if we pick a WR, S, or CB, they likely will not be day one starters unless we move up for Clowney.


Well, by that logic why aren't we looking at QB in the first round? Taking a non-elite prospect at a position where we are young and strong is not worth it.


Because only 1 QB plays at a time.

We can play multiple LB's in multiple ways at different times.

The argument would be we could use Shazier like:

Levy-Tulloch-Shazier on early (run downs)

On pass downs we could hypothetically go:

Levy-Shazier

or

Ansah-Fairley-Suh-Shazier

or

Ansah-Suh-Fairley

Levy-Tulloch-Shazier (with Shazier blitzing)


I'm not saying I want it to happen or that it would for sure work (or maximize value), but comparing a LB to a QB is absurd.


Also, we have Stafford under contract for much longer than Levy. We are drafting for the future of this team, not just this year.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have Levy through 2015 and Stafford through 2017, I don't know that I'd consider that "much longer." Also, with Mayhew's job on the line and the organizational slogan changing to "win now," drafting for the future may be a secondary concern.
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Mayhem50


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Slim. I thought maybe I was losing my mind, bucking the popular opinions for the draft. Everyone is so worried about moving down and getting more picks and possibly taking a LB first. I guess I should have said trade down and we'll still get Watkins and get a bunch of extra picks. I'm tired of all this Tunnel vision. Let's think outside the box. Build and be creative. With all these large contracts, we'll definatley take some casualties to Free Agency down the road.
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bigc421


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1King wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
That's what they said about Chris Spilman. 4 other linebackers taken before him. The Lions got lucky they got him. He made an impact and put up numbers far beyond the other 4 guys picked ahead of him. Who's to say that Ryan Shazier doesn't come in become a starter. Has shown in college he can be a sack machine and cover LB. Not just a guy who gets the stop 4 to 5 yds past they line of scrimmage like we have now. We have gotten into a rut of thinking everyone has to develop and veteran players can't be replaced. I think he can contribute now and not just part time.


So he's going to come in and provide a significant upgrade to 113 tackles, 15 passes defensed, and 6 interceptions? I'm not saying he won't be a good player, just that we have bigger needs to address. And the comparison to Spielman is a poor one. Spielman came into a team with a definite need at LB, increased by the 3-4 defense we ran then. Now we run a base 4-3 and stay in nickel or dime 2/3 of the time. Our top 2 LBs both had over 110 tackles last year on a top 10 run defense. OLB in the first round just doesn't make sense.


Does he have to? I know we all hope that everyone we pick makes an imediate impact but thats never the case. Suh was the last to really do it consistantly. Ansah was close but others have sat, learned and filled in when needed. Levy may not be here forever, he may regress, or Shazier shows he is good enough to cover TE's and can be on the field more.

I am not saying I think this is the best idea, but even if we pick a WR, S, or CB, they likely will not be day one starters unless we move up for Clowney.


Well, by that logic why aren't we looking at QB in the first round? Taking a non-elite prospect at a position where we are young and strong is not worth it.


Because only 1 QB plays at a time.

We can play multiple LB's in multiple ways at different times.

The argument would be we could use Shazier like:

Levy-Tulloch-Shazier on early (run downs)

On pass downs we could hypothetically go:

Levy-Shazier

or

Ansah-Fairley-Suh-Shazier

or

Ansah-Suh-Fairley

Levy-Tulloch-Shazier (with Shazier blitzing)


I'm not saying I want it to happen or that it would for sure work (or maximize value), but comparing a LB to a QB is absurd.


He's more of a good blitzing lber than a pass rusher. He'll get into the backfield in a hurry if the scheme is to occupy olineman and hope he slips threw untouched. Not sure I like the idea of using him as a nickel edge player.

Truth of matter here is we really are not sure what this defensive scheme is be or look like. We've gotten some bland quotes from coaches but that means little. There really is no reason to be married to a strict 43 at this point. I could really see them targeting Mack and wanting to have that linebacker edge rusher Austin is used to having. Imagine us going to a heavier look ala Denver or Seattle with Jones sliding inside Ina Michael Bennet roll with Suh lining head up on a tackle with Mack outside him ala the smith boys only we still have ansah on other side???. Wow buddy, where do I sign to ship off our 2nd rd pick for that scenario ?
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1King


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigc421 wrote:
1King wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
That's what they said about Chris Spilman. 4 other linebackers taken before him. The Lions got lucky they got him. He made an impact and put up numbers far beyond the other 4 guys picked ahead of him. Who's to say that Ryan Shazier doesn't come in become a starter. Has shown in college he can be a sack machine and cover LB. Not just a guy who gets the stop 4 to 5 yds past they line of scrimmage like we have now. We have gotten into a rut of thinking everyone has to develop and veteran players can't be replaced. I think he can contribute now and not just part time.


So he's going to come in and provide a significant upgrade to 113 tackles, 15 passes defensed, and 6 interceptions? I'm not saying he won't be a good player, just that we have bigger needs to address. And the comparison to Spielman is a poor one. Spielman came into a team with a definite need at LB, increased by the 3-4 defense we ran then. Now we run a base 4-3 and stay in nickel or dime 2/3 of the time. Our top 2 LBs both had over 110 tackles last year on a top 10 run defense. OLB in the first round just doesn't make sense.


Does he have to? I know we all hope that everyone we pick makes an imediate impact but thats never the case. Suh was the last to really do it consistantly. Ansah was close but others have sat, learned and filled in when needed. Levy may not be here forever, he may regress, or Shazier shows he is good enough to cover TE's and can be on the field more.

I am not saying I think this is the best idea, but even if we pick a WR, S, or CB, they likely will not be day one starters unless we move up for Clowney.


Well, by that logic why aren't we looking at QB in the first round? Taking a non-elite prospect at a position where we are young and strong is not worth it.


Because only 1 QB plays at a time.

We can play multiple LB's in multiple ways at different times.

The argument would be we could use Shazier like:

Levy-Tulloch-Shazier on early (run downs)

On pass downs we could hypothetically go:

Levy-Shazier

or

Ansah-Fairley-Suh-Shazier

or

Ansah-Suh-Fairley

Levy-Tulloch-Shazier (with Shazier blitzing)


I'm not saying I want it to happen or that it would for sure work (or maximize value), but comparing a LB to a QB is absurd.


He's more of a good blitzing lber than a pass rusher. He'll get into the backfield in a hurry if the scheme is to occupy olineman and hope he slips threw untouched. Not sure I like the idea of using him as a nickel edge player.

Truth of matter here is we really are not sure what this defensive scheme is be or look like. We've gotten some bland quotes from coaches but that means little. There really is no reason to be married to a strict 43 at this point. I could really see them targeting Mack and wanting to have that linebacker edge rusher Austin is used to having. Imagine us going to a heavier look ala Denver or Seattle with Jones sliding inside Ina Michael Bennet roll with Suh lining head up on a tackle with Mack outside him ala the smith boys only we still have ansah on other side???. Wow buddy, where do I sign to ship off our 2nd rd pick for that scenario ?


Agree 100%

I was just throwing out idea of how he (or a similar player) could hypothetically be used.
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DrRay11


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
Mack is an elite prospect, Shazier is not.


I think you'll come to regret those words, but time will tell. Shazier is an elite athlete and also a good football player. His ceiling is very high.

My last mock I believe I had us taking Shazier and Ward with a trade down w/ Cleveland. I honestly doubt Shazier lasts to 26 but I'd love him as a Lion. He'd most likely take over for Tulloch against the pass, so the 35% number people are throwing around does not apply.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Trade Down & pick up Ryan Shazier OLB Ohio State Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
I like the idea of trading down in the first rd and going after Ryan Shazier. He had good numbers at Ohio State and I think he will be a very good OLB in the NFL. Of course if one of the 2 or 3 players everyone desires slips to #10 then pick them, but if someone like Barr is there, pass on him and trade down. Get more bang for your buck. I really feel Shazier will have a bigger impact than Barr. His skill level has grown each year in college and he seems to read the field very well. I watch his game films and he closes fast on the ball and is very good at shooting gaps for Sacks. Really liked the way he picks up coverage on players trying to slip out for quick passes. OLB is a need & Ryan Shazier could fill that role, while we pick up more valuable picks to fill other needs.


While OLB may be a need, it's not a first pick need. We've discussed before that our 3rd linebacker played about 35% of the defensive snaps. Shazier is not a clear upgrade over DeAndre Levy, so our first round pick would be spent on a part time player. Much better to address an impact position early on.


The 35% skewed as OLB depth sucked so it was out of need . With better OLB I bet they would use it more
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Whiffleballtony


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Trade Down & pick up Ryan Shazier OLB Ohio State Reply with quote

[quote="detfan782004"]
amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
I like the idea of trading down in the first rd and going after Ryan Shazier. He had good numbers at Ohio State and I think he will be a very good OLB in the NFL. Of course if one of the 2 or 3 players everyone desires slips to #10 then pick them, but if someone like Barr is there, pass on him and trade down. Get more bang for your buck. I really feel Shazier will have a bigger impact than Barr. His skill level has grown each year in college and he seems to read the field very well. I watch his game films and he closes fast on the ball and is very good at shooting gaps for Sacks. Really liked the way he picks up coverage on players trying to slip out for quick passes. OLB is a need & Ryan Shazier could fill that role, while we pick up more valuable picks to fill other needs.


While OLB may be a need, it's not a first pick need. We've discussed before that our 3rd linebacker played about 35% of the defensive snaps. Shazier is not a clear upgrade over DeAndre Levy, so our first round pick would be spent on a part time player. Much better to address an impact position early on.


The 35% skewed as OLB depth sucked so it was out of need . With better OLB I bet they would use it more[/quote

Agreed, especially since Shazier is more athletic then some cornerbacks/safeties.
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theuntouchable


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Trade Down & pick up Ryan Shazier OLB Ohio State Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
I like the idea of trading down in the first rd and going after Ryan Shazier. He had good numbers at Ohio State and I think he will be a very good OLB in the NFL. Of course if one of the 2 or 3 players everyone desires slips to #10 then pick them, but if someone like Barr is there, pass on him and trade down. Get more bang for your buck. I really feel Shazier will have a bigger impact than Barr. His skill level has grown each year in college and he seems to read the field very well. I watch his game films and he closes fast on the ball and is very good at shooting gaps for Sacks. Really liked the way he picks up coverage on players trying to slip out for quick passes. OLB is a need & Ryan Shazier could fill that role, while we pick up more valuable picks to fill other needs.


While OLB may be a need, it's not a first pick need. We've discussed before that our 3rd linebacker played about 35% of the defensive snaps. Shazier is not a clear upgrade over DeAndre Levy, so our first round pick would be spent on a part time player. Much better to address an impact position early on.


Ever think that maybe that was the case because the 3rd LB was that bad?
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Trade Down & pick up Ryan Shazier OLB Ohio State Reply with quote

theuntouchable wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
I like the idea of trading down in the first rd and going after Ryan Shazier. He had good numbers at Ohio State and I think he will be a very good OLB in the NFL. Of course if one of the 2 or 3 players everyone desires slips to #10 then pick them, but if someone like Barr is there, pass on him and trade down. Get more bang for your buck. I really feel Shazier will have a bigger impact than Barr. His skill level has grown each year in college and he seems to read the field very well. I watch his game films and he closes fast on the ball and is very good at shooting gaps for Sacks. Really liked the way he picks up coverage on players trying to slip out for quick passes. OLB is a need & Ryan Shazier could fill that role, while we pick up more valuable picks to fill other needs.


While OLB may be a need, it's not a first pick need. We've discussed before that our 3rd linebacker played about 35% of the defensive snaps. Shazier is not a clear upgrade over DeAndre Levy, so our first round pick would be spent on a part time player. Much better to address an impact position early on.


Ever think that maybe that was the case because the 3rd LB was that bad?


No, I think that was the case because we face 3 or 4 WR formations constantly. Every team is starting to slide in the direction of more nickel and dime. Palmer was solid when he was in, but you have to play the personnel the situation dictates. Besides, does anyone really want to make the argument that we went with extra DBs because of our depth and skill at that position?
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Rockcity


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its tough for me to draft lbers high or even in the first rd period.

im probably in a no minority but I like shazier better than mack going forward. I like to much in the top 20 to be grabbing a lber tho.
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Mayhem50


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teams with good defenses get to the playoffs and the one with disruptive LB's are in the upper tier. Think of all the good defensive teams that decline after losing a key player. It isn't a lineman, it isn't the backs. It's the in between.... The LB's. The control the play calls & checked downs if they smell a stunt. Having a smart, fast, hard hitting LB who is a leader is invaluable. Ask Baltimore, Pittsburg.... Loose a LB, defense takes a step back. Our LB's are good, but not great! Opposing teams should always have that fear of our LB's in the back of there minds when stepping up to the line. Our LB's are not a threat on the Blitz nor quick enough to fill a hole and pop a running back.
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