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Trade Down & pick up Ryan Shazier OLB Ohio State
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Mayhem50


Joined: 28 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Trade Down & pick up Ryan Shazier OLB Ohio State Reply with quote

I like the idea of trading down in the first rd and going after Ryan Shazier. He had good numbers at Ohio State and I think he will be a very good OLB in the NFL. Of course if one of the 2 or 3 players everyone desires slips to #10 then pick them, but if someone like Barr is there, pass on him and trade down. Get more bang for your buck. I really feel Shazier will have a bigger impact than Barr. His skill level has grown each year in college and he seems to read the field very well. I watch his game films and he closes fast on the ball and is very good at shooting gaps for Sacks. Really liked the way he picks up coverage on players trying to slip out for quick passes. OLB is a need & Ryan Shazier could fill that role, while we pick up more valuable picks to fill other needs.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Trade Down & pick up Ryan Shazier OLB Ohio State Reply with quote

Mayhem50 wrote:
I like the idea of trading down in the first rd and going after Ryan Shazier. He had good numbers at Ohio State and I think he will be a very good OLB in the NFL. Of course if one of the 2 or 3 players everyone desires slips to #10 then pick them, but if someone like Barr is there, pass on him and trade down. Get more bang for your buck. I really feel Shazier will have a bigger impact than Barr. His skill level has grown each year in college and he seems to read the field very well. I watch his game films and he closes fast on the ball and is very good at shooting gaps for Sacks. Really liked the way he picks up coverage on players trying to slip out for quick passes. OLB is a need & Ryan Shazier could fill that role, while we pick up more valuable picks to fill other needs.


While OLB may be a need, it's not a first pick need. We've discussed before that our 3rd linebacker played about 35% of the defensive snaps. Shazier is not a clear upgrade over DeAndre Levy, so our first round pick would be spent on a part time player. Much better to address an impact position early on.
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Mayhem50


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what they said about Chris Spilman. 4 other linebackers taken before him. The Lions got lucky they got him. He made an impact and put up numbers far beyond the other 4 guys picked ahead of him. Who's to say that Ryan Shazier doesn't come in become a starter. Has shown in college he can be a sack machine and cover LB. Not just a guy who gets the stop 4 to 5 yds past they line of scrimmage like we have now. We have gotten into a rut of thinking everyone has to develop and veteran players can't be replaced. I think he can contribute now and not just part time.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mayhem50 wrote:
That's what they said about Chris Spilman. 4 other linebackers taken before him. The Lions got lucky they got him. He made an impact and put up numbers far beyond the other 4 guys picked ahead of him. Who's to say that Ryan Shazier doesn't come in become a starter. Has shown in college he can be a sack machine and cover LB. Not just a guy who gets the stop 4 to 5 yds past they line of scrimmage like we have now. We have gotten into a rut of thinking everyone has to develop and veteran players can't be replaced. I think he can contribute now and not just part time.


So he's going to come in and provide a significant upgrade to 113 tackles, 15 passes defensed, and 6 interceptions? I'm not saying he won't be a good player, just that we have bigger needs to address. And the comparison to Spielman is a poor one. Spielman came into a team with a definite need at LB, increased by the 3-4 defense we ran then. Now we run a base 4-3 and stay in nickel or dime 2/3 of the time. Our top 2 LBs both had over 110 tackles last year on a top 10 run defense. OLB in the first round just doesn't make sense.
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ThugCityGrunt


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bet he goes top 15.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
That's what they said about Chris Spilman. 4 other linebackers taken before him. The Lions got lucky they got him. He made an impact and put up numbers far beyond the other 4 guys picked ahead of him. Who's to say that Ryan Shazier doesn't come in become a starter. Has shown in college he can be a sack machine and cover LB. Not just a guy who gets the stop 4 to 5 yds past they line of scrimmage like we have now. We have gotten into a rut of thinking everyone has to develop and veteran players can't be replaced. I think he can contribute now and not just part time.


So he's going to come in and provide a significant upgrade to 113 tackles, 15 passes defensed, and 6 interceptions? I'm not saying he won't be a good player, just that we have bigger needs to address. And the comparison to Spielman is a poor one. Spielman came into a team with a definite need at LB, increased by the 3-4 defense we ran then. Now we run a base 4-3 and stay in nickel or dime 2/3 of the time. Our top 2 LBs both had over 110 tackles last year on a top 10 run defense. OLB in the first round just doesn't make sense.


Does he have to? I know we all hope that everyone we pick makes an imediate impact but thats never the case. Suh was the last to really do it consistantly. Ansah was close but others have sat, learned and filled in when needed. Levy may not be here forever, he may regress, or Shazier shows he is good enough to cover TE's and can be on the field more.

I am not saying I think this is the best idea, but even if we pick a WR, S, or CB, they likely will not be day one starters unless we move up for Clowney.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
That's what they said about Chris Spilman. 4 other linebackers taken before him. The Lions got lucky they got him. He made an impact and put up numbers far beyond the other 4 guys picked ahead of him. Who's to say that Ryan Shazier doesn't come in become a starter. Has shown in college he can be a sack machine and cover LB. Not just a guy who gets the stop 4 to 5 yds past they line of scrimmage like we have now. We have gotten into a rut of thinking everyone has to develop and veteran players can't be replaced. I think he can contribute now and not just part time.


So he's going to come in and provide a significant upgrade to 113 tackles, 15 passes defensed, and 6 interceptions? I'm not saying he won't be a good player, just that we have bigger needs to address. And the comparison to Spielman is a poor one. Spielman came into a team with a definite need at LB, increased by the 3-4 defense we ran then. Now we run a base 4-3 and stay in nickel or dime 2/3 of the time. Our top 2 LBs both had over 110 tackles last year on a top 10 run defense. OLB in the first round just doesn't make sense.


Does he have to? I know we all hope that everyone we pick makes an imediate impact but thats never the case. Suh was the last to really do it consistantly. Ansah was close but others have sat, learned and filled in when needed. Levy may not be here forever, he may regress, or Shazier shows he is good enough to cover TE's and can be on the field more.

I am not saying I think this is the best idea, but even if we pick a WR, S, or CB, they likely will not be day one starters unless we move up for Clowney.


Well, by that logic why aren't we looking at QB in the first round? Taking a non-elite prospect at a position where we are young and strong is not worth it.
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Mayhem50


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if Mack dropped into out lap at #10, we should pass on him because were set at LB and there isn't a need. I say get a young aggressive stud if available. And out of all the tackles our LB had last year how many were for no gain or loses? # of tackles mean nothing if there after a gain of 4 yds or more! Our LB are slow to the ball. Teams that excel at run defense have good, Quick LB's. Durant had a lot of tackles last year. Many after the 5 yd 1st down was achieved. We need to find a quick solid LB. It is a need right now.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mack is an elite prospect, Shazier is not.
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1King


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
amaru0 wrote:
Mayhem50 wrote:
That's what they said about Chris Spilman. 4 other linebackers taken before him. The Lions got lucky they got him. He made an impact and put up numbers far beyond the other 4 guys picked ahead of him. Who's to say that Ryan Shazier doesn't come in become a starter. Has shown in college he can be a sack machine and cover LB. Not just a guy who gets the stop 4 to 5 yds past they line of scrimmage like we have now. We have gotten into a rut of thinking everyone has to develop and veteran players can't be replaced. I think he can contribute now and not just part time.


So he's going to come in and provide a significant upgrade to 113 tackles, 15 passes defensed, and 6 interceptions? I'm not saying he won't be a good player, just that we have bigger needs to address. And the comparison to Spielman is a poor one. Spielman came into a team with a definite need at LB, increased by the 3-4 defense we ran then. Now we run a base 4-3 and stay in nickel or dime 2/3 of the time. Our top 2 LBs both had over 110 tackles last year on a top 10 run defense. OLB in the first round just doesn't make sense.


Does he have to? I know we all hope that everyone we pick makes an imediate impact but thats never the case. Suh was the last to really do it consistantly. Ansah was close but others have sat, learned and filled in when needed. Levy may not be here forever, he may regress, or Shazier shows he is good enough to cover TE's and can be on the field more.

I am not saying I think this is the best idea, but even if we pick a WR, S, or CB, they likely will not be day one starters unless we move up for Clowney.


Well, by that logic why aren't we looking at QB in the first round? Taking a non-elite prospect at a position where we are young and strong is not worth it.


Because only 1 QB plays at a time.

We can play multiple LB's in multiple ways at different times.

The argument would be we could use Shazier like:

Levy-Tulloch-Shazier on early (run downs)

On pass downs we could hypothetically go:

Levy-Shazier

or

Ansah-Fairley-Suh-Shazier

or

Ansah-Suh-Fairley

Levy-Tulloch-Shazier (with Shazier blitzing)


I'm not saying I want it to happen or that it would for sure work (or maximize value), but comparing a LB to a QB is absurd.
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Mayhem50


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't matter! You felt we had needs other than LB. What are those needs and who will step in day one and produce!
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Mayhem50


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was we drop down in the draft, pick up more value picks and take a LB at a lower pick, and fill holes in the 2nd & 3rd. Any defensive back isn't going to be a starter and with all the WR's were good later on.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize the LB-QB comparison was ridiculous, but that was kind of the point. You can draft a first round QB to sit and learn, but you don't draft a first round LB to do the same. And the argument that he can be used in those different ways depends heavily on his being able to play multiple different positions in multiple schemes. That's a lot to expect of a rookie. And keep in mind that my argument is not that he wouldn't help us, it's just that there are more important needs to address in the first.

Day one producers at need positions would include any of the top prospects at positions where we rotate more personnel (WR, CB, DL). Our LBs played more snaps than anyone last year because they are good, versatile linebackers. Tulloch and Levy both played over 98% of defensive snaps. 5 different CBs got over 19% of defensive snaps, and no CB played over 75%. 8 D-linemen went over 16% of snaps, and other than Suh none played over 75%. 6 different receivers got over 15% of offensive snaps.
If we add someone at any one of these positions, we get someone who can step into the rotation and contribute from day one. That includes any one of the top 5 WRs, CBs, or DL.
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Mayhem50


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lions averaged 99.8 YD's per game in 2013, good enough for 6th place. Nice stat, but deceiving. 42 more yards, they drop to 11 and 75 there out of the top 15. Yes, our defensive line gets sacks to bring the numbers down but our LB core doen't get a lot of tackles for no yds or lost yds. Plus the threat of a blitzing LB can change play calling. Not saying it's a huge glaring need, but if we can draft a LB that brings that talent, why not. May not play every down but make a big impact.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I'm not opposed to getting Shazier, just against moving around the board to target him. I think even if we're talking late first round the WRs available in particular are better values.
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