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Jadeveon Clowney visits the Lions. Smokescreen?
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Louis Friend


Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 8045
Location: Detroit, MI
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope they trade up and trade up for Sammy Watkins. I want the best team possible and that team needs WRs. I personally don't believe Calvin Johnson is healthy and we've seen how this team falters without him. We've invested, not only draft picks and money into our offense, but went out and put together a coaching staff to make this offense run smoothly. And now people don't want players on the field to make it work? Makes very little sense to me. But such is the life of Lions fans I suppose. Listening to what fans want is hysterical (myself included). Hopefully, the Lions do what they think is best, and from most accounts so far, we know it's leaning in one very heavy direction. Wink
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RIP CITY


Joined: 21 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a problem with the Lions adding a WR or two in this Draft but trading up for one is not the route to go IMO. Giving up that 2nd Round Pick is a mistake, there will be 1st Round talents available with that Pick. If anything they should be looking for ways to add more Picks and more talent, not giving it away chances to fill out a roster that has many needs and weaknesses. Watkins is very good but he's not better than two players with first Round talent. They already added Tate, they can Draft a good WR in the 2nd or 3rd Round, there is no need to trade up for Watkins. They already have the best WR in the NFL and Calvin will be fine, I'm not worried about him. They have enough talent on offense to be very effective and it's up to the Coaching Staff (which is why they were brought in) to get the best out of them. All they need is a couple decent WR's to add to the depth. This team has too many needs and WR is not that important.
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DetroitPride26


Joined: 25 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIP CITY wrote:
I hope they don't trade up. I don't like the idea of giving up a 2nd Rounder in this Draft, there will be so many talented guys left at #45. This team isn't one player away from contending, they should keep the Picks and assemble the best team possible. Or even trade down to acquire more Picks in a Draft like this. If they do trade up, I think Clowney is the only player worth doing it for, but I'm still not really in favor of it. It will take an arm and leg to trade for up for #2, I just don't think it's worth it.
Who said it would be a 2nd rounder? What if it was Fairley?
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIP CITY wrote:
I don't have a problem with the Lions adding a WR or two in this Draft but trading up for one is not the route to go IMO. Giving up that 2nd Round Pick is a mistake, there will be 1st Round talents available with that Pick. If anything they should be looking for ways to add more Picks and more talent, not giving it away chances to fill out a roster that has many needs and weaknesses. Watkins is very good but he's not better than two players with first Round talent. They already added Tate, they can Draft a good WR in the 2nd or 3rd Round, there is no need to trade up for Watkins. They already have the best WR in the NFL and Calvin will be fine, I'm not worried about him. They have enough talent on offense to be very effective and it's up to the Coaching Staff (which is why they were brought in) to get the best out of them. All they need is a couple decent WR's to add to the depth. This team has too many needs and WR is not that important.

I don't understand what you mean by "first round talent".... I think that term gets thrown around too much and it is very misleading. You have to qualify that statement.

Anywho, I take it you are intending to imply that there should be some very talented players in the 2nd round. I would agree, and I also agree that I want to keep our 2nd... but you can't really say that Watkins < player X and Y.... first off we don't know who will be available at those picks, second off we don't know how any of these players will develop in the NFL.

I apologize if I'm splitting hairs. I am just trying to understand what you mean, but I don't want to assume.

Personally, I think 1 elite player usually is better than 2 good players (Calvin vs. Nelson/Cobb, for instance). That said, we don't know whether or not we will get good/elite/bad players with a top 5 pick vs. 10 + 45. There aren't enough elite prospects in this draft for it to be likely one drops to 10, so if we want a great prospect we will have to move up, and it will likely take our 2nd unfortunately. I enjoy watching the draft, so that's why I don't want to trade our 2nd... however from a "looking towards the future" perspective, I like the idea of using our 2nd to move up and ensure Clowney/Mack/Watkins. Elite players are hard to come by, and all 3 would have a great chance to become that because of the talent around them.
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flyguy1609


Joined: 22 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i understand getting an "elite type prospects" but i don't think were a clowney/mack/watkins away from a super bowl. maybe playoffs, i mean if we move up for 1 of these guys im for it, if we trade down im for it. i just don't want us to do a stupid move. i trust MM, he hasn't missed a 1st rd pick yet imo. i don't think there is a cb/safety worth taking 10th.
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d_stanton2lions


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just flabbergasted by the Clowney nit picking that goes on everywhere. I've probably seen every video of Clowney, good and bad, that exists on the internet, which definitely doesn't mean I even know what to look for but I don't see anything other than a dominant football player. Not just athlete.

Sure he has plays where he isn't great but even plays that he doesn't dominate - he effectively changes the course of a play with his positioning. Even being blocked, he is pushing the pocket and forces QB/RB to adjust. I see that on an overwhelming majority of his plays.

I really don't think anybody can watch tape and determine his work ethic or passion for the game. Many great players in the history of the NFL have openly said that they don't really like football, they just play because they are good at it. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'm not even sure if Clowney fits that, but the people spewing this no work ethic garbage get annoying.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
RIP CITY wrote:
I don't have a problem with the Lions adding a WR or two in this Draft but trading up for one is not the route to go IMO. Giving up that 2nd Round Pick is a mistake, there will be 1st Round talents available with that Pick. If anything they should be looking for ways to add more Picks and more talent, not giving it away chances to fill out a roster that has many needs and weaknesses. Watkins is very good but he's not better than two players with first Round talent. They already added Tate, they can Draft a good WR in the 2nd or 3rd Round, there is no need to trade up for Watkins. They already have the best WR in the NFL and Calvin will be fine, I'm not worried about him. They have enough talent on offense to be very effective and it's up to the Coaching Staff (which is why they were brought in) to get the best out of them. All they need is a couple decent WR's to add to the depth. This team has too many needs and WR is not that important.

I don't understand what you mean by "first round talent".... I think that term gets thrown around too much and it is very misleading. You have to qualify that statement.

Anywho, I take it you are intending to imply that there should be some very talented players in the 2nd round. I would agree, and I also agree that I want to keep our 2nd... but you can't really say that Watkins < player X and Y.... first off we don't know who will be available at those picks, second off we don't know how any of these players will develop in the NFL.

I apologize if I'm splitting hairs. I am just trying to understand what you mean, but I don't want to assume.

Personally, I think 1 elite player usually is better than 2 good players (Calvin vs. Nelson/Cobb, for instance).
That said, we don't know whether or not we will get good/elite/bad players with a top 5 pick vs. 10 + 45. There aren't enough elite prospects in this draft for it to be likely one drops to 10, so if we want a great prospect we will have to move up, and it will likely take our 2nd unfortunately. I enjoy watching the draft, so that's why I don't want to trade our 2nd... however from a "looking towards the future" perspective, I like the idea of using our 2nd to move up and ensure Clowney/Mack/Watkins. Elite players are hard to come by, and all 3 would have a great chance to become that because of the talent around them.


I'm just not a fan of trading up and I see no evidence in the league to suggest adding elite prospects is a better strategy than adding good prospects.

In my view the sweet spot in any draft is between pick 20 and 60. If I'm building a team I want as many picks in that sweet spot as possible.

Numerous teams in the NFL have high draft picks annually, the Lions included. Those teams seldom achieve anything beyond mediocrity. Yet teams that traditionally draft lower and attempt to accumulate picks in the sweet spot of the draft contend yearly.

Additionally the cost of keeping elite players is prohibitive to the acquisition of players at other positions. Opposing teams will find ways to expose a weakness and the more apparent the weakness the more advantage you give the opposition.

So many are suggesting we need yet another potentially elite wide receiver and want to draft Watkins. If that's true then what good is having elite wide receivers. Its much more effective to have 4 competent receivers than elite wide receivers and a poor defence that can't stop the opposition.

The Lions need another competent receiver not another potentially elite wide receiver. They need to upgrade team competence at other positions and that can best be done through cost effective draft picks.
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Rockcity


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

much as I hate mayhew he is pretty good at trades. I think hes smart enough to see this is a nice draft and idt he'd give up a 2nd,at least I hope not. but id be ok giving up a 2nd if it was clowney but not watkins
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SuhPLEX


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
RIP CITY wrote:
I don't have a problem with the Lions adding a WR or two in this Draft but trading up for one is not the route to go IMO. Giving up that 2nd Round Pick is a mistake, there will be 1st Round talents available with that Pick. If anything they should be looking for ways to add more Picks and more talent, not giving it away chances to fill out a roster that has many needs and weaknesses. Watkins is very good but he's not better than two players with first Round talent. They already added Tate, they can Draft a good WR in the 2nd or 3rd Round, there is no need to trade up for Watkins. They already have the best WR in the NFL and Calvin will be fine, I'm not worried about him. They have enough talent on offense to be very effective and it's up to the Coaching Staff (which is why they were brought in) to get the best out of them. All they need is a couple decent WR's to add to the depth. This team has too many needs and WR is not that important.

I don't understand what you mean by "first round talent".... I think that term gets thrown around too much and it is very misleading. You have to qualify that statement.

Anywho, I take it you are intending to imply that there should be some very talented players in the 2nd round. I would agree, and I also agree that I want to keep our 2nd... but you can't really say that Watkins < player X and Y.... first off we don't know who will be available at those picks, second off we don't know how any of these players will develop in the NFL.

I apologize if I'm splitting hairs. I am just trying to understand what you mean, but I don't want to assume.

Personally, I think 1 elite player usually is better than 2 good players (Calvin vs. Nelson/Cobb, for instance).
That said, we don't know whether or not we will get good/elite/bad players with a top 5 pick vs. 10 + 45. There aren't enough elite prospects in this draft for it to be likely one drops to 10, so if we want a great prospect we will have to move up, and it will likely take our 2nd unfortunately. I enjoy watching the draft, so that's why I don't want to trade our 2nd... however from a "looking towards the future" perspective, I like the idea of using our 2nd to move up and ensure Clowney/Mack/Watkins. Elite players are hard to come by, and all 3 would have a great chance to become that because of the talent around them.


I'm just not a fan of trading up and I see no evidence in the league to suggest adding elite prospects is a better strategy than adding good prospects.

In my view the sweet spot in any draft is between pick 20 and 60. If I'm building a team I want as many picks in that sweet spot as possible.

Numerous teams in the NFL have high draft picks annually, the Lions included. Those teams seldom achieve anything beyond mediocrity. Yet teams that traditionally draft lower and attempt to accumulate picks in the sweet spot of the draft contend yearly.

Additionally the cost of keeping elite players is prohibitive to the acquisition of players at other positions. Opposing teams will find ways to expose a weakness and the more apparent the weakness the more advantage you give the opposition.

So many are suggesting we need yet another potentially elite wide receiver and want to draft Watkins. If that's true then what good is having elite wide receivers. Its much more effective to have 4 competent receivers than elite wide receivers and a poor defence that can't stop the opposition.

The Lions need another competent receiver not another potentially elite wide receiver. They need to upgrade team competence at other positions and that can best be done through cost effective draft picks.

Elite players impact the game more than good players... I'm not quite sure what you mean by the evidence isn't there. Teams that suck annually have poor QB play the vast majority of the time, it's not about talent... although I'm confused, I feel as if you're saying that picks 20-60 turn out better than top picks, like if given the choice you'd rather have the 20th pick than the 10th. I'm basing that off this statement:
Quote:

Numerous teams in the NFL have high draft picks annually, the Lions included. Those teams seldom achieve anything beyond mediocrity. Yet teams that traditionally draft lower and attempt to accumulate picks in the sweet spot of the draft contend yearly.

I do agree with a few of your points though, I was just confused about what I noted above. I agree that you can find great value in the end of the 1st/2nd round. I also agree that we don't need a stud at WR, it would be a luxury at this point but lets not forget many teams have been very successful with having 2 great WR's. Tate is good, but he isn't dominant.

I also can't wrap my head around the notion that an elite player should be avoided because we won't be able to afford them. I don't think that's any way to build a team, and I trust Mayhew and Lewan to make good decisions with the cap.

I can understand the idea of not wanting to trade up because of the depth of this draft or a large number or perceived holes; you seemed to note both those reasons but I am struggling to understand the logic behind not wanting elite players on this club or that "good" prospects are somehow more valuable than "great" prospects. I think you are over thinking it a little bit.
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I honestly wouldn't be upset if we draft 3 TE's

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RIP CITY


Joined: 21 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:

I don't understand what you mean by "first round talent".... I think that term gets thrown around too much and it is very misleading. You have to qualify that statement.

Anywho, I take it you are intending to imply that there should be some very talented players in the 2nd round. I would agree, and I also agree that I want to keep our 2nd... but you can't really say that Watkins < player X and Y.... first off we don't know who will be available at those picks, second off we don't know how any of these players will develop in the NFL.

I apologize if I'm splitting hairs. I am just trying to understand what you mean, but I don't want to assume.

Personally, I think 1 elite player usually is better than 2 good players (Calvin vs. Nelson/Cobb, for instance). That said, we don't know whether or not we will get good/elite/bad players with a top 5 pick vs. 10 + 45. There aren't enough elite prospects in this draft for it to be likely one drops to 10, so if we want a great prospect we will have to move up, and it will likely take our 2nd unfortunately. I enjoy watching the draft, so that's why I don't want to trade our 2nd... however from a "looking towards the future" perspective, I like the idea of using our 2nd to move up and ensure Clowney/Mack/Watkins. Elite players are hard to come by, and all 3 would have a great chance to become that because of the talent around them.


What I meant by "First Round talent" is that there are going to be players in the 2nd Round in this Draft that could go in the 1st Round in most Drafts. But yes, what I mean is that there is going to be alot of talented players available in the 2nd Round. This Draft is DEEP, we don't know exactly who will be there, but based on the amount of good prospects we know someone will be there. There is a ton of talent in this Draft, going all the way into the 4th Round.

I don't agree that one elite player is better than 2 very good players, at least not most of the time. A guy like Calvin or Adrian Peterson, you can make that argument. But there simply isn't that many players like them and I don't think Sammy Watkins is that type of player.

I'd prefer a player at #10 and a player #45, especially in a deep Draft like this where you could potentially end up with two Pro Bowl type of players with those Picks over one guy. I just don't think Watkins is THAT good and I don't think WR is that important or that big of need.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis Friend wrote:
I hope they trade up and trade up for Sammy Watkins. I want the best team possible and that team needs WRs. I personally don't believe Calvin Johnson is healthy and we've seen how this team falters without him. We've invested, not only draft picks and money into our offense, but went out and put together a coaching staff to make this offense run smoothly. And now people don't want players on the field to make it work? Makes very little sense to me. But such is the life of Lions fans I suppose. Listening to what fans want is hysterical (myself included). Hopefully, the Lions do what they think is best, and from most accounts so far, we know it's leaning in one very heavy direction. Wink


They have said nothing of sort. Only one showing this is Watkins himself
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SuhPLEX


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIP CITY wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:

I don't understand what you mean by "first round talent".... I think that term gets thrown around too much and it is very misleading. You have to qualify that statement.

Anywho, I take it you are intending to imply that there should be some very talented players in the 2nd round. I would agree, and I also agree that I want to keep our 2nd... but you can't really say that Watkins < player X and Y.... first off we don't know who will be available at those picks, second off we don't know how any of these players will develop in the NFL.

I apologize if I'm splitting hairs. I am just trying to understand what you mean, but I don't want to assume.

Personally, I think 1 elite player usually is better than 2 good players (Calvin vs. Nelson/Cobb, for instance). That said, we don't know whether or not we will get good/elite/bad players with a top 5 pick vs. 10 + 45. There aren't enough elite prospects in this draft for it to be likely one drops to 10, so if we want a great prospect we will have to move up, and it will likely take our 2nd unfortunately. I enjoy watching the draft, so that's why I don't want to trade our 2nd... however from a "looking towards the future" perspective, I like the idea of using our 2nd to move up and ensure Clowney/Mack/Watkins. Elite players are hard to come by, and all 3 would have a great chance to become that because of the talent around them.


What I meant by "First Round talent" is that there are going to be players in the 2nd Round in this Draft that could go in the 1st Round in most Drafts. But yes, what I mean is that there is going to be alot of talented players available in the 2nd Round. This Draft is DEEP, we don't know exactly who will be there, but based on the amount of good prospects we know someone will be there. There is a ton of talent in this Draft, going all the way into the 4th Round.

I don't agree that one elite player is better than 2 very good players, at least not most of the time. A guy like Calvin or Adrian Peterson, you can make that argument. But there simply isn't that many players like them and I don't think Sammy Watkins is that type of player.

I'd prefer a player at #10 and a player #45, especially in a deep Draft like this where you could potentially end up with two Pro Bowl type of players with those Picks over one guy. I just don't think Watkins is THAT good and I don't think WR is that important or that big of need.

What if we picked Mack or Clowney?
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I honestly wouldn't be upset if we draft 3 TE's

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RIP CITY


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
What if we picked Mack or Clowney?


Clowney might be that type of guy. I'd definitely consider it for him. Honestly wouldn't feel comfortable making that decision without being able to talk to him, do a comprehensive background check on him regarding his question marks. But he's the only player I think might be worth the risk of giving up those extra assets.

I love Mack as a prospect too but no, I don't think I would do it for him either. I will say that I would be less concerned about the cost, if we traded up for one of them. I think pass rushers and defense is more important than WR's and offense. I like Watkins alot but I don't like the cost to go up to get him. If it does happen though, I won't agree with it but I'll still be happy to have Watkins, I think he's a very good player. I just don't think the cost is worth it.
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rob_shadows


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd honestly rather have Donald even if trading up wasn't required and both were available at 10. Clowney is all athletic ability IMO, his technique needs a lot of work and his drive and motivation are highly quesionable. Donald has a motor that never stops, incredibly impressive technique (read a breakdown that pointed out the number of pass rushing moves he uses regularly being vastly superior to most elite D-lineman coming out of college and even superior to a lot of seasoned NFL vets as well as he rarity for D-lineman to use combination moves as frequently and effectively as he does), and isn't far behind Clowney athletically...doesn't have the "speed" of Clowney but is just as quick off the line and much stronger.

Given the fact that D-lineman will rarely ever use "40 speed" and the fact that top speed and size are about all Clowney has over Donald I seriously don't understand why he's rated so much higher to most people, Donald is just as talented, far more "NFL ready" due to his vastly superior technique and has zero character or work ethic concerns.
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d_stanton2lions


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rob_shadows wrote:
I'd honestly rather have Donald even if trading up wasn't required and both were available at 10. Clowney is all athletic ability IMO, his technique needs a lot of work and his drive and motivation are highly quesionable. Donald has a motor that never stops, incredibly impressive technique (read a breakdown that pointed out the number of pass rushing moves he uses regularly being vastly superior to most elite D-lineman coming out of college and even superior to a lot of seasoned NFL vets as well as he rarity for D-lineman to use combination moves as frequently and effectively as he does), and isn't far behind Clowney athletically...doesn't have the "speed" of Clowney but is just as quick off the line and much stronger.

Given the fact that D-lineman will rarely ever use "40 speed" and the fact that top speed and size are about all Clowney has over Donald I seriously don't understand why he's rated so much higher to most people, Donald is just as talented, far more "NFL ready" due to his vastly superior technique and has zero character or work ethic concerns.


How is his drive and work ethic highly questionable outside of highly questionable reports that really have no confirmed foundation?

I just don't see how someone could say Donald is better than Clowney. To each there own I suppose. I just don't see anything close to that.
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