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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25633
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIP CITY wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:


The same people that are dismissing a top 10 pick so offhandedly would crucify Mayhew even further if he turned it down and we only got a 3rd comp pick out of him or worse-nothing.


At this point there is no reason to believe that he won't re-sign other than it's taking longer than we all hoped it would. Both sides have said there is interest to get a deal done, unless that changes, it's ridiculous to think about trading Suh. This defense pretty much stinks with him, imagine how bad it will be without him. I'd rather not see what this defense looks like without him, I already can't stand watching this defense now.


Funny, it's taking longer than THE FANS want. Management doesn't seem to be panicking.

Taking time with negotiations increases the chance both sides are comfortable with the eventual deal.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
RIP CITY wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:


The same people that are dismissing a top 10 pick so offhandedly would crucify Mayhew even further if he turned it down and we only got a 3rd comp pick out of him or worse-nothing.


At this point there is no reason to believe that he won't re-sign other than it's taking longer than we all hoped it would. Both sides have said there is interest to get a deal done, unless that changes, it's ridiculous to think about trading Suh. This defense pretty much stinks with him, imagine how bad it will be without him. I'd rather not see what this defense looks like without him, I already can't stand watching this defense now.


Funny, it's taking longer than THE FANS want. Management doesn't seem to be panicking.

Taking time with negotiations increases the chance both sides are comfortable with the eventual deal.

That's all fine and dandy as long as there is a deal. But while there is no reason to believe there won't be a deal, there also is no reason to believe there will be. Regardless of the odds either way, there are alot of people here making alot of assumptions that would lead to them labeling Mayhew a failure if anything other than a re-signing took place, while there is absolutely no way to prove that it would be Mayhew's fault.
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RIP CITY


Joined: 21 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
why does everyone seem to hate on our defense so much? It's not as bad as some of you are making it out to seem... top half of the league for sure


Actually most people around here agree with you. The Lions defense is definitely not top half of the League. It was barely middle of the pack last year and we downgraded at Safety so far this offseason. Unless Austin is a genius this defense will stink again this year without some additions. It is as bad as I am making it seem, I'm just not sure why more people don't see it.

As for Suh, there is no reason to jump the gun and trade him now just because there is a chance he might not re-sign, as you said phreak, it's probably 50/50 at the very worst. Most likely he will re-sign. Again, until the Lions are fairly convinced that he wants out, they shouldn't even consider trading him. And I won't blame Mayhew, I've always thought that Suh was the most likely player to want to jump ship. If he ends up leaving it will probably be because he wants to leave this losing franchise and go to a bigger market, warmer climate or a better team, or all three. If I blamed anyone it would be Suh, though I honestly couldn't blame him for wanting to leave. This franchise hasn't proven they are capable of building a winner, he'd be better off somewhere else. I hope he stays, because he's one of the best players in the NFL but I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to waste his career here.
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TimeForChange


Joined: 15 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not necessarily against trading Suh but I would want much more than a guaranteed pick of Watkins.

He is worth more than that and losing him would be a huge hit to our D.

DE, Fairley, DT, and Ansah. People seem to be banking on hopes and dreams with our Dline rather than proven talent. Devin Taylor and Jason Jones are some nice depth players but haven't proven themselves in full time play.

Fairley is a guy you can't really bank on to take over for Suh. He has maturity issues of his own as well as the shoulder issues and ability to consistently play at 100%.

Tulloch and Levy are nice but we need another LB. Houston had a bad year and we have unproven (yet talented) CBs led by Slay in our secondary. Quin does a nice job but the new signing, Ihedigbo, seems to be more of a solid cheap veteran who is a nice stopgap.

Players like Suh make the rest of the defense look better simply because of the pressure he provides and the coverage he needs. Trading away Suh for an unproven WR with a questionable Oline (Raiola, Waddle, Sims) and QB play seems to be a giant mistake simply because we could get more.

I would pass.
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIP CITY wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
why does everyone seem to hate on our defense so much? It's not as bad as some of you are making it out to seem... top half of the league for sure


Actually most people around here agree with you. The Lions defense is definitely not top half of the League. It was barely middle of the pack last year and we downgraded at Safety so far this offseason. Unless Austin is a genius this defense will stink again this year without some additions. It is as bad as I am making it seem, I'm just not sure why more people don't see it.

We were 15th in PPG and 16th in YPG. That is indeed middle of the pack as you suggest, bit it is also top half of the league like I said. It certainly doesn't "stink."

I mean, call a thing a thing. Our defense isn't great, but it doesn't stink. However, we have young talent at every level of our defense that should continue to improve. Also, lets not forget the mundane D we ran last year... it's no wonder we didn't create turnovers or stop the pass effectively! Yeah, some of it has to do with having young/less-than-stellar players at CB, but some of it at least had to do with our scheme.

There's no way to predict the success of our defense next year. It might be top 5, who knows? There are too many unknowns; from the young players that will likely improve, to how Austin decides to run this defense. It would be irresponsible of us to try and say our defense as a whole is a certain way. We have talent all over our defense. We just need to bring it together.
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Calvin-Stafford


Joined: 29 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
RIP CITY wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
why does everyone seem to hate on our defense so much? It's not as bad as some of you are making it out to seem... top half of the league for sure


Actually most people around here agree with you. The Lions defense is definitely not top half of the League. It was barely middle of the pack last year and we downgraded at Safety so far this offseason. Unless Austin is a genius this defense will stink again this year without some additions. It is as bad as I am making it seem, I'm just not sure why more people don't see it.

We were 15th in PPG and 16th in YPG. That is indeed middle of the pack as you suggest, bit it is also top half of the league like I said. It certainly doesn't "stink."

I mean, call a thing a thing. Our defense isn't great, but it doesn't stink. However, we have young talent at every level of our defense that should continue to improve. Also, lets not forget the mundane D we ran last year... it's no wonder we didn't create turnovers or stop the pass effectively! Yeah, some of it has to do with having young/less-than-stellar players at CB, but some of it at least had to do with our scheme.

There's no way to predict the success of our defense next year. It might be top 5, who knows? There are too many unknowns; from the young players that will likely improve, to how Austin decides to run this defense. It would be irresponsible of us to try and say our defense as a whole is a certain way. We have talent all over our defense. We just need to bring it together.

Its worth noting that we did middle-of-the-pack numbers on a powder-puff schedule. Those numbers would've been brought down to distinctly-below-average if we had faced the Broncos, Saints, Eagles in better conditions, or an Aaron Rodgers-led Pack in the second game.
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Chups


Joined: 17 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The start of any trade involving Ndamukong Suh would involve two first rounders and some change. He's one of the top players in the league and has the talent to be the best defender of his decade. Players like Suh don't get traded for peanuts.

With that said, if they could get a top 10 pick (landing Mack, Clowney, or Watkins), another 1st rounder next year, then they should definitely entertain the offer. However, that isn't going to happen and it's arguable that they would need even more in a trade involving Suh.

In reality, if the Lions want Sammy Watkins that bad they should just try to offering every team their third and another late round pick to acquire him. They don't need to look at trading their second best player to get a top 5 talent in this draft.
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detroitroar


Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIP CITY wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
why does everyone seem to hate on our defense so much? It's not as bad as some of you are making it out to seem... top half of the league for sure


Actually most people around here agree with you. The Lions defense is definitely not top half of the League. It was barely middle of the pack last year and we downgraded at Safety so far this offseason. Unless Austin is a genius this defense will stink again this year without some additions. It is as bad as I am making it seem, I'm just not sure why more people don't see it.


How in the heck did we downgrade at safety?

And there are so many other factors to weigh.

Ansah and Taylor should be better. Slay, Bentley, Greenwood should be better. Fairley can only get better.

Maybe they wont be, but its not as if everything will stay stagnant and its as simple as we downgraded at a position.

Im not gonna argue where are defense ranks, but I thought it was an encouraging year for our D.

Having a brand new DC is a little worrisome, but Im ecstatic to be moving on from our vanilla approach.
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detroitroar wrote:
RIP CITY wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
why does everyone seem to hate on our defense so much? It's not as bad as some of you are making it out to seem... top half of the league for sure


Actually most people around here agree with you. The Lions defense is definitely not top half of the League. It was barely middle of the pack last year and we downgraded at Safety so far this offseason. Unless Austin is a genius this defense will stink again this year without some additions. It is as bad as I am making it seem, I'm just not sure why more people don't see it.


How in the heck did we downgrade at safety?

And there are so many other factors to weigh.

Ansah and Taylor should be better. Slay, Bentley, Greenwood should be better. Fairley can only get better.

Maybe they wont be, but its not as if everything will stay stagnant and its as simple as we downgraded at a position.

Im not gonna argue where are defense ranks, but I thought it was an encouraging year for our D.

Having a brand new DC is a little worrisome, but Im ecstatic to be moving on from our vanilla approach.


Delmas is garbage. Safety was easily upgraded.
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d_stanton2lions


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread, in it's entirety is how the lions are managed and owned. It is also why we will never be a great team. People are truly delusional.

To say safety was upgraded by losing Delmas is just wrong on so many levels.
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DrRay11


Joined: 19 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

d_stanton2lions wrote:
This thread, in it's entirety is how the lions are managed and owned. It is also why we will never be a great team. People are truly delusional.

To say safety was upgraded by losing Delmas is just wrong on so many levels.


Safety was a parallel to me. Delmas was average. Ihedigbo is average. We need to get a true upgrade in the pipeline.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

d_stanton2lions wrote:
This thread, in it's entirety is how the lions are managed and owned. It is also why we will never be a great team. People are truly delusional.

To say safety was upgraded by losing Delmas is just wrong on so many levels.

Well, I find it a far greater exaggeration to suggest a thread on a message board is what is wrong with a professional sports team than to suggest it was not all that difficult to replace a player that spent nearly half his career on IR.

People certainly can be truly delusional.
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
d_stanton2lions wrote:
This thread, in it's entirety is how the lions are managed and owned. It is also why we will never be a great team. People are truly delusional.

To say safety was upgraded by losing Delmas is just wrong on so many levels.

Well, I find it a far greater exaggeration to suggest a thread on a message board is what is wrong with a professional sports team than to suggest it was not all that difficult to replace a player that spent nearly half his career on IR.

People certainly can be truly delusional.


Yea Delmas was junk. People really valued him high for someone whorarely played
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d_stanton2lions


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
d_stanton2lions wrote:
This thread, in it's entirety is how the lions are managed and owned. It is also why we will never be a great team. People are truly delusional.

To say safety was upgraded by losing Delmas is just wrong on so many levels.

Well, I find it a far greater exaggeration to suggest a thread on a message board is what is wrong with a professional sports team than to suggest it was not all that difficult to replace a player that spent nearly half his career on IR.

People certainly can be truly delusional.


Meh, Nevermind - carry on.
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RIP CITY


Joined: 21 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detroitroar wrote:


How in the heck did we downgrade at safety?

And there are so many other factors to weigh.

Ansah and Taylor should be better. Slay, Bentley, Greenwood should be better. Fairley can only get better.

Maybe they wont be, but its not as if everything will stay stagnant and its as simple as we downgraded at a position.

Im not gonna argue where are defense ranks, but I thought it was an encouraging year for our D.

Having a brand new DC is a little worrisome, but Im ecstatic to be moving on from our vanilla approach.


Look, alot of people didn't like Delmas, I get it. He has flaws and injury concerns. I wasn't against letting him go. But, it's simple, Ihedigbo is not as good as Delmas overall. You don't have to love Delmas to feel that way. Delmas is just a better player, Ihedigbo is a stop gap. Ihedigbo is better against the run, he's a box safety but he's no where near as good as Delmas in coverage. It's a downgrade.

I'm not sure what was encouraging about the defense besides their play against the run. Otherwise it's the same pathetic defense we've seen for years. They play ok for a few minutes pretty much every game here and there but they can't get stops when it matters. All the close game we were in last year, not one stop when we needed it outside of a failed 2 point conversation in the Bears game, a single one play 50/50 stop that came after they collapsed to give up the TD. They become swiss cheese when they are needed most, it's completely predictable that if the game is close and the opponents have the ball at the of the game the Lions are going to lose, it happens every time. They can't cover anyone, they can't get consistent pressure on QB's, they can't force turnovers, they can't tackle and even the run defense falls apart when we need it most. They aren't one of the worst defensive teams in the League but they still stink overall.

I sincerely hope you are right about the young guys getting better but this defense just doesn't have the talent or play makers to become one of the better defenses in the League IMO. I want to see this team have an elite defense, again, I reference the fact that I've never seen a Lions defense ranked in the Top 5 in my entire life, I'm sick of watching this team struggle to compete because their defense is never up to snuff. I'm sick of watching this team be able to score with anyone but always lose because the defense can't hold teams down or get stops when it's needed.
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