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Would you take Johnny Manziel *#14*
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bkokot


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Drafting Johnny at 14 would just be a huge distraction for the team and for Phil Emery as its a red mark against him.
Actually, it would only show that Emery is willing to go against Conventional Wisdom which we already know is the case and which we also know is almost always wrong. And it would show he is looking at the long haul. Given the near certainty of Cutler going down for a few games what drafting JF would really show is that Emery is willing to give Trestman excellent QB material to work with and that he understands that Jay can get hurt. There would be no "red" mark (not that anyone knows what that means) or a Black mark either against Phil. I have no doubt Phil would make this choice should the wildly improbable chance occur.


What about the huge distraction that it would cause that you ofcourse dodged? You think Jay Cutler would like the fact that you drafted a 1st round QB even after signing him to a contract? The media would be all over this situation. You create a problem where there isnt one. Makes absolutely no sense.
Who would be distracted? Pro players expected not to be distracted in the biggest of games? No. Jay? No. I don't think Jay would care, he is as unflappable as I have seen and knows his career could be over in a blink. Media frenzy will distract the Bears? Nothing would be worse than '85, laughable. It creates no problem except among the unimaginative and makes all kinds of sense if you look forward.


Jay admitted to being nervous, and even that it affected his play a little bit in the first half of the first game he was back after being injured because of how well Josh McCown had been playing. I don't think you can argue that a healthy dynamic young player drafted in the first round at his position wouldn't make him nervous as well. I'm still uncertain about the kind of pro Manziel will be, but I think Jay would be less than pleased to say the least about the situation.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Don't lie about my past comments. I never downgraded Trevon Austin because he was not ideal H/W but because he was a LOT smaller than pro players need to be for a high first round pick, Manziel is SLIGHTLY shorter than ideal. There is no hypocrisy on my part. What I said all along was that picking a player like that in the third round was fine but insane for the first and I see nothing that has dispelled that viewpoint. Picking Pinky or Darrel Sproles in the third is fine, Austin with the 8th pick ridiculous.


I wasnt lying about your past comments at all. I was actually looking at your past threads before writing that. Maybe you need to recheck your own writing. Austin at the 8th pick was ridiculous to you because you didnt watch any of the film(typical) and went off an incredibly stupid stereotype. Did you forget about the game vs the Rams? Or did that slip your memory too?
Where would you come up with the idea that I had not watched TA? I watched several WV games prior to the draft and the year before and saw nothing exceptional. WV always had these fast, little guys and he was the latest. The "stupid" stereotype was common sense and knowledge of WHO actually plays in the NFL and that rarely includes players that small. Our game vs the Rams had many problematic aspects including bad special teams. Austin's year was not a total failure but is not even close to what the 8th pick should produce. He wasn't even Johnny Knox good.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkokot wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Drafting Johnny at 14 would just be a huge distraction for the team and for Phil Emery as its a red mark against him.
Actually, it would only show that Emery is willing to go against Conventional Wisdom which we already know is the case and which we also know is almost always wrong. And it would show he is looking at the long haul. Given the near certainty of Cutler going down for a few games what drafting JF would really show is that Emery is willing to give Trestman excellent QB material to work with and that he understands that Jay can get hurt. There would be no "red" mark (not that anyone knows what that means) or a Black mark either against Phil. I have no doubt Phil would make this choice should the wildly improbable chance occur.


What about the huge distraction that it would cause that you ofcourse dodged? You think Jay Cutler would like the fact that you drafted a 1st round QB even after signing him to a contract? The media would be all over this situation. You create a problem where there isnt one. Makes absolutely no sense.
Who would be distracted? Pro players expected not to be distracted in the biggest of games? No. Jay? No. I don't think Jay would care, he is as unflappable as I have seen and knows his career could be over in a blink. Media frenzy will distract the Bears? Nothing would be worse than '85, laughable. It creates no problem except among the unimaginative and makes all kinds of sense if you look forward.


Jay admitted to being nervous, and even that it affected his play a little bit in the first half of the first game he was back after being injured because of how well Josh McCown had been playing. I don't think you can argue that a healthy dynamic young player drafted in the first round at his position wouldn't make him nervous as well. I'm still uncertain about the kind of pro Manziel will be, but I think Jay would be less than pleased to say the least about the situation.
Either you want the best competition or you don't. Even if Jay did not like it if it was necessary for the good of the team the move should be made. Who else gets to veto a team beneficial move?
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GOGRIESE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Don't lie about my past comments. I never downgraded Trevon Austin because he was not ideal H/W but because he was a LOT smaller than pro players need to be for a high first round pick, Manziel is SLIGHTLY shorter than ideal. There is no hypocrisy on my part. What I said all along was that picking a player like that in the third round was fine but insane for the first and I see nothing that has dispelled that viewpoint. Picking Pinky or Darrel Sproles in the third is fine, Austin with the 8th pick ridiculous.


I wasnt lying about your past comments at all. I was actually looking at your past threads before writing that. Maybe you need to recheck your own writing. Austin at the 8th pick was ridiculous to you because you didnt watch any of the film(typical) and went off an incredibly stupid stereotype. Did you forget about the game vs the Rams? Or did that slip your memory too?
Where would you come up with the idea that I had not watched TA? I watched several WV games prior to the draft and the year before and saw nothing exceptional. WV always had these fast, little guys and he was the latest. The "stupid" stereotype was common sense and knowledge of WHO actually plays in the NFL and that rarely includes players that small. Our game vs the Rams had many problematic aspects including bad special teams. Austin's year was not a total failure but is not even close to what the 8th pick should produce. He wasn't even Johnny Knox good.


Well apparently the "common sense" coming from ChicagoAl just completely escaped NFL Front Offices Laughing. I'm curious now....which games did you watch? His first year wasnt anything close to a failure.
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GOGRIESE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.


Just pointing out the reason nobody replied to that is because Al's statements & record with prospects has been well document. Its not pretty.
So I should switch from my Ouija Board to a Crystal Ball? Or use tea leaves as you do?


Using any of those would probably be more accurate than what you were doing before
Do you wake up rude or do you have to work up to it?


As George Carlin said "I have a very low tolerance level for stupid bull(you know)". When it comes to this subject you certainly exude quite a bit of it.
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bkokot


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
bkokot wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Drafting Johnny at 14 would just be a huge distraction for the team and for Phil Emery as its a red mark against him.
Actually, it would only show that Emery is willing to go against Conventional Wisdom which we already know is the case and which we also know is almost always wrong. And it would show he is looking at the long haul. Given the near certainty of Cutler going down for a few games what drafting JF would really show is that Emery is willing to give Trestman excellent QB material to work with and that he understands that Jay can get hurt. There would be no "red" mark (not that anyone knows what that means) or a Black mark either against Phil. I have no doubt Phil would make this choice should the wildly improbable chance occur.


What about the huge distraction that it would cause that you ofcourse dodged? You think Jay Cutler would like the fact that you drafted a 1st round QB even after signing him to a contract? The media would be all over this situation. You create a problem where there isnt one. Makes absolutely no sense.
Who would be distracted? Pro players expected not to be distracted in the biggest of games? No. Jay? No. I don't think Jay would care, he is as unflappable as I have seen and knows his career could be over in a blink. Media frenzy will distract the Bears? Nothing would be worse than '85, laughable. It creates no problem except among the unimaginative and makes all kinds of sense if you look forward.


Jay admitted to being nervous, and even that it affected his play a little bit in the first half of the first game he was back after being injured because of how well Josh McCown had been playing. I don't think you can argue that a healthy dynamic young player drafted in the first round at his position wouldn't make him nervous as well. I'm still uncertain about the kind of pro Manziel will be, but I think Jay would be less than pleased to say the least about the situation.
Either you want the best competition or you don't. Even if Jay did not like it if it was necessary for the good of the team the move should be made. Who else gets to veto a team beneficial move?


I wasn't really arguing that Jay should have Veto power, or even that we shouldn't pick Manziel if he were available. My statement was just saying that I think Jay would in fact care, and I gave reasons why using past examples.
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CBears019


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drafting Manziel would cause a HUGE distraction, especially in Chicago. This city is almost always clamoring for the backup QB to be the starter - Griese, Orton, McCown, whoever...

Imagine how bad that would be if our backup QB just happened to be a young, hotshot 1st round pick, former Heisman winner. Any mistake Jay makes would send the media into a frenzy asking Trestman if he plans on benching Jay for Manziel. It would take focus off the goal at hand.


If Manziel is on the board at 14 and Emery drafts him I would lose a lot of faith in him. You either trade back with a QB-needy team and get a haul in return, or you stick to your guns and fix this defense that was so dreadful last year.
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DaMike


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBears019 wrote:
Drafting Manziel would cause a HUGE distraction, especially in Chicago. This city is almost always clamoring for the backup QB to be the starter - Griese, Orton, McCown, whoever...

Imagine how bad that would be if our backup QB just happened to be a young, hotshot 1st round pick, former Heisman winner. Any mistake Jay makes would send the media into a frenzy asking Trestman if he plans on benching Jay for Manziel. It would take focus off the goal at hand.


If Manziel is on the board at 14 and Emery drafts him I would lose a lot of faith in him. You either trade back with a QB-needy team and get a haul in return, or you stick to your guns and fix this defense that was so dreadful last year.
You say you would lose faith now but if it happened you would talk yourself into liking the pick by the next day like everyone else. I could never get mad at a GM who invests in a great young QB prospect.
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Roadrunner


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBears019 wrote:
Drafting Manziel would cause a HUGE distraction, especially in Chicago. This city is almost always clamoring for the backup QB to be the starter - Griese, Orton, McCown, whoever...

Imagine how bad that would be if our backup QB just happened to be a young, hotshot 1st round pick, former Heisman winner. Any mistake Jay makes would send the media into a frenzy asking Trestman if he plans on benching Jay for Manziel. It would take focus off the goal at hand.


If Manziel is on the board at 14 and Emery drafts him I would lose a lot of faith in him. You either trade back with a QB-needy team and get a haul in return, or you stick to your guns and fix this defense that was so dreadful last year.


....and whichever happens, you NEVER look back.

If Manziel was a Cutler clone, that might be different. This is a guy that you need to build the system around the strengths of his game, 100%, if the kid is going to have any chance to succeed. How do you do that with a backup QB?
Simple answer: You don't!


Last edited by Roadrunner on Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CBears019


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaMike wrote:
CBears019 wrote:
Drafting Manziel would cause a HUGE distraction, especially in Chicago. This city is almost always clamoring for the backup QB to be the starter - Griese, Orton, McCown, whoever...

Imagine how bad that would be if our backup QB just happened to be a young, hotshot 1st round pick, former Heisman winner. Any mistake Jay makes would send the media into a frenzy asking Trestman if he plans on benching Jay for Manziel. It would take focus off the goal at hand.


If Manziel is on the board at 14 and Emery drafts him I would lose a lot of faith in him. You either trade back with a QB-needy team and get a haul in return, or you stick to your guns and fix this defense that was so dreadful last year.
You say you would lose faith now but if it happened you would talk yourself into liking the pick by the next day like everyone else. I could never get mad at a GM who invests in a great young QB prospect.


If we had an even adequate defense maybe I could be talked into liking him, but when we have so many holes to fill on defense and we just committed to Cutler like we did drafting Manziel at 14 is too risky imo.
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GOGRIESE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaMike wrote:
CBears019 wrote:
Drafting Manziel would cause a HUGE distraction, especially in Chicago. This city is almost always clamoring for the backup QB to be the starter - Griese, Orton, McCown, whoever...

Imagine how bad that would be if our backup QB just happened to be a young, hotshot 1st round pick, former Heisman winner. Any mistake Jay makes would send the media into a frenzy asking Trestman if he plans on benching Jay for Manziel. It would take focus off the goal at hand.


If Manziel is on the board at 14 and Emery drafts him I would lose a lot of faith in him. You either trade back with a QB-needy team and get a haul in return, or you stick to your guns and fix this defense that was so dreadful last year.
You say you would lose faith now but if it happened you would talk yourself into liking the pick by the next day like everyone else. I could never get mad at a GM who invests in a great young QB prospect.


Oh no...this would be the gift that keeps on giving. Anytime Cutler makes a mistake you would hear the media scream and fans scream for Johnny to start. This wouldnt happen for the next few years because we can not release Cutler until after year 3 in his contract(yeah that whole new contract thing is a problem for this theory). It makes even less sense when you add up all the factors involved.
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DaMike


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
DaMike wrote:
CBears019 wrote:
Drafting Manziel would cause a HUGE distraction, especially in Chicago. This city is almost always clamoring for the backup QB to be the starter - Griese, Orton, McCown, whoever...

Imagine how bad that would be if our backup QB just happened to be a young, hotshot 1st round pick, former Heisman winner. Any mistake Jay makes would send the media into a frenzy asking Trestman if he plans on benching Jay for Manziel. It would take focus off the goal at hand.


If Manziel is on the board at 14 and Emery drafts him I would lose a lot of faith in him. You either trade back with a QB-needy team and get a haul in return, or you stick to your guns and fix this defense that was so dreadful last year.
You say you would lose faith now but if it happened you would talk yourself into liking the pick by the next day like everyone else. I could never get mad at a GM who invests in a great young QB prospect.


Oh no...this would be the gift that keeps on giving. Anytime Cutler makes a mistake you would hear the media scream and fans scream for Johnny to start. This wouldnt happen for the next few years because we can not release Cutler until after year 3 in his contract(yeah that whole new contract thing is a problem for this theory). It makes even less sense when you add up all the factors involved.
I understand all that. But keep in mind we could have a QB for the next 10-15 years and Jay will only be here for 3. I'd have no problem with taking Manziel because I think he can be better then Jay sooner rather then later.
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GOGRIESE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaMike wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
DaMike wrote:
CBears019 wrote:
Drafting Manziel would cause a HUGE distraction, especially in Chicago. This city is almost always clamoring for the backup QB to be the starter - Griese, Orton, McCown, whoever...

Imagine how bad that would be if our backup QB just happened to be a young, hotshot 1st round pick, former Heisman winner. Any mistake Jay makes would send the media into a frenzy asking Trestman if he plans on benching Jay for Manziel. It would take focus off the goal at hand.


If Manziel is on the board at 14 and Emery drafts him I would lose a lot of faith in him. You either trade back with a QB-needy team and get a haul in return, or you stick to your guns and fix this defense that was so dreadful last year.
You say you would lose faith now but if it happened you would talk yourself into liking the pick by the next day like everyone else. I could never get mad at a GM who invests in a great young QB prospect.


Oh no...this would be the gift that keeps on giving. Anytime Cutler makes a mistake you would hear the media scream and fans scream for Johnny to start. This wouldnt happen for the next few years because we can not release Cutler until after year 3 in his contract(yeah that whole new contract thing is a problem for this theory). It makes even less sense when you add up all the factors involved.
I understand all that. But keep in mind we could have a QB for the next 10-15 years and Jay will only be here for 3. I'd have no problem with taking Manziel because I think he can be better then Jay sooner rather then later.


You take him at 14 he better not be sitting for 3 years.
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Sugashane


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.
There have been very few college players who have excited fans as much as Johnny Football certainly not hundreds per decade, so your comment is simply untrue. In the last decade Adrian Peterson was one, Tebow was another but there aren't many others. I have never claimed college play will translate into an equivalent in the pros, that is just a straw man argument. However, college play is about all the scouts have to go on. Occasionally a player, like Long, comes along with no experience to base a pick on but that is fairly rare. Occasionally a non-football player, like Bob Hayes, is picked and makes it as a pro and that is even more rare. If JF makes it big in the pros very few will be surprised, dismayed but not surprised.


I never said anything about anyone being exciting at all, exciting doesn't mean HOF, it means they might make a flashy play here or there. Vick was exciting, but no way does he deserve a yellow jacket.

My statement was purely based on what you said, if he continues to play as he has in college he could be a HoF player. His stats were what reflected his dominance in college, not being exciting. I never even mentioned the word "exciting." So take his stats, divide them by how many games he played, then multiply them by 16 and you have what his average season would be as a pro if he played at the same level as in college. You'll see they would be HoF numbers, over 4000 yards, 40+ passing TDs, and 10+ rushing TDs per season on average. Many other players dominate in college with gaudy stats like this, but they rarely become solid players in the pros. So yes, my statement was true, you just misinterpreted it.

I agree that their college career is most of what they have to go on, but they look at much more than stats. Measuring physical abilities, seeing how they fit in schemes, and many other things that don't show up on a stat sheet are what scouts look for more than stats. Tebow's stat-line looked fantastic for the most part, career accolades, and winning percentage was top notch, but just watching him throw and really looking at his throwing motion you wondered how he was a QB in the first place.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
DaMike wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
DaMike wrote:
CBears019 wrote:
Drafting Manziel would cause a HUGE distraction, especially in Chicago. This city is almost always clamoring for the backup QB to be the starter - Griese, Orton, McCown, whoever...

Imagine how bad that would be if our backup QB just happened to be a young, hotshot 1st round pick, former Heisman winner. Any mistake Jay makes would send the media into a frenzy asking Trestman if he plans on benching Jay for Manziel. It would take focus off the goal at hand.


If Manziel is on the board at 14 and Emery drafts him I would lose a lot of faith in him. You either trade back with a QB-needy team and get a haul in return, or you stick to your guns and fix this defense that was so dreadful last year.
You say you would lose faith now but if it happened you would talk yourself into liking the pick by the next day like everyone else. I could never get mad at a GM who invests in a great young QB prospect.


Oh no...this would be the gift that keeps on giving. Anytime Cutler makes a mistake you would hear the media scream and fans scream for Johnny to start. This wouldnt happen for the next few years because we can not release Cutler until after year 3 in his contract(yeah that whole new contract thing is a problem for this theory). It makes even less sense when you add up all the factors involved.
I understand all that. But keep in mind we could have a QB for the next 10-15 years and Jay will only be here for 3. I'd have no problem with taking Manziel because I think he can be better then Jay sooner rather then later.


You take him at 14 he better not be sitting for 3 years.

But he's not going to get a chance to play at all. That's the whole point. The Bears committed to Jay last year when McCown played well while he was out hurt and there was no financial commitment in play, and then, knowing who was going to be available in the draft (including Manziel), they gave Jay FIFTY FOUR MILLION GUARANTEED DOLLARS over the next 3 seasons. He is their guy. Emery and Trestman have made that as clear as they possibly can at every opportunity both in their words and with their actions. That this is even a discussion at all speaks to the level that fans like (or dislike) Cutler and IMO this ongoing discussion has far more to do with that than it does with what Manziel brings to the table. The team is committed to Jay for the foreseeable future. Period. And because of it there is no way Manziel is a 1st round option for us, regardless of how much people want him to be an option.
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