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Would you take Johnny Manziel *#14*
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GOGRIESE


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drafting Johnny at 14 would just be a huge distraction for the team and for Phil Emery as its a red mark against him.
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Sugashane


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.
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GOGRIESE


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.


Just pointing out the reason nobody replied to that is because Al's statements & record with prospects has been well document. Its not pretty.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.


Just pointing out the reason nobody replied to that is because Al's statements & record with prospects has been well document. Its not pretty.

For sake of full disclosure Al was also one of the first to be high on Alshon heading into the 2012 draft too even when many weren't. We all have our guys we like. I mean, I went to bat for Marvin McNutt...
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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Location: Austin Texas
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.


Just pointing out the reason nobody replied to that is because Al's statements & record with prospects has been well document. Its not pretty.

For sake of full disclosure Al was also one of the first to be high on Alshon heading into the 2012 draft too even when many weren't. We all have our guys we like. I mean, I went to bat for Marvin McNutt...


He's also a complete hypocrite when it comes to this argument. Remember last year how size of a player was a big problem for him? Size and the weight of a player need to be up to his standards otherwise they wont survive. Although when it comes to the Johnny apparently that's not an issue for him. The data only applies for certain people. Inconsistent criteria for grading players isnt impressive to me.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.
There have been very few college players who have excited fans as much as Johnny Football certainly not hundreds per decade, so your comment is simply untrue. In the last decade Adrian Peterson was one, Tebow was another but there aren't many others. I have never claimed college play will translate into an equivalent in the pros, that is just a straw man argument. However, college play is about all the scouts have to go on. Occasionally a player, like Long, comes along with no experience to base a pick on but that is fairly rare. Occasionally a non-football player, like Bob Hayes, is picked and makes it as a pro and that is even more rare. If JF makes it big in the pros very few will be surprised, dismayed but not surprised.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.


Just pointing out the reason nobody replied to that is because Al's statements & record with prospects has been well document. Its not pretty.

For sake of full disclosure Al was also one of the first to be high on Alshon heading into the 2012 draft too even when many weren't. We all have our guys we like. I mean, I went to bat for Marvin McNutt...


He's also a complete hypocrite when it comes to this argument. Remember last year how size of a player was a big problem for him? Size and the weight of a player need to be up to his standards otherwise they wont survive. "My" standards are just the average height/weight/speed as listed by the NFL not something I pulled out of nowhere. So this is false and misleading. Although when it comes to the Johnny apparently that's not an issue for him. It would be nice if he was a couple of inches taller but he doesn't need to be six inches taller or thirty pounds heavier. The data only applies for certain people. In reality it applies to players way below average. Inconsistent criteria for grading players isnt impressive to me. There is nothing inconsistent about any of what I have said - Trevon Austin is nothing like Manziel.
Don't lie about my past comments. I never downgraded Trevon Austin because he was not ideal H/W but because he was a LOT smaller than pro players need to be for a high first round pick, Manziel is SLIGHTLY shorter than ideal. There is no hypocrisy on my part. What I said all along was that picking a player like that in the third round was fine but insane for the first and I see nothing that has dispelled that viewpoint. Picking Pinky or Darrel Sproles in the third is fine, Austin with the 8th pick ridiculous.

Last edited by ChicagoAl on Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:

Emery has already tied his future to Cutler with the $54M guaranteed, for better or worse. Drafting Manziel regardless of what he thinks of him as a player would say that he made a mistake in betting on Cutler before he ever plays a down under the new deal. That will not happen. I do not agree that drafting another QB says anything of the sort, any more than GB taking Rodgers meant they had given up on Favre. Looking down the road past immediate problems is what makes great teams consistently winners. Chances are better that you'll track down my home address on the internet somehow and come over one Saturday afternoon and gift me your 2014 season tickets just for being such a swell guy. Not exactly counting on that. You would have to survive a Cage Death Match with my sons for that to happen but don't give up hope.

More than likely Emery needs to win in the next 2 years or he may be gone. Building a consistent winner is critical but there is no contradiction between this view and drafting premier players, in fact they are very consistent. Drafting Manziel would do exactly zero toward helping him do that but would prevent him from drafting a more immediate contributor. Few, if any, of us expected Long to contribute last year because of his inexperience. Now we are speaking of a player who starred in the minor league, the SEC, the closest to the pros there is. If Emery bet correctly on Jay then Manziel won't see the field at all, making his selection a complete waste until at which time we trade him for something else of value, at the opportunity cost of having missed out on having had something else of value all along.

Pretty sure all of this is academic anyway - I will be FLOORED if Manziel gets past Minnesota at 8 if he even makes it that far. As SLC said, QB is the most important position, and several teams ahead of us don't have one. Without any trades, Manziel could realistically go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11 or 13.
Oh, I agree with this totally and expect him to be drafted closer to #1 than 14. Minnesota has had QBs who were great with similar dependence on running: Tarkington and McDaniel so I see no hesitation in them taking Johnny.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
Drafting Johnny at 14 would just be a huge distraction for the team and for Phil Emery as its a red mark against him.
Actually, it would only show that Emery is willing to go against Conventional Wisdom which we already know is the case and which we also know is almost always wrong. And it would show he is looking at the long haul. Given the near certainty of Cutler going down for a few games what drafting JF would really show is that Emery is willing to give Trestman excellent QB material to work with and that he understands that Jay can get hurt. There would be no "red" mark (not that anyone knows what that means) or a Black mark either against Phil. I have no doubt Phil would make this choice should the wildly improbable chance occur.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.


Just pointing out the reason nobody replied to that is because Al's statements & record with prospects has been well document. Its not pretty.
So I should switch from my Ouija Board to a Crystal Ball? Or use tea leaves as you do?
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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.


Just pointing out the reason nobody replied to that is because Al's statements & record with prospects has been well document. Its not pretty.
So I should switch from my Ouija Board to a Crystal Ball? Or use tea leaves as you do?


Using any of those would probably be more accurate than what you were doing before
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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Location: Austin Texas
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Drafting Johnny at 14 would just be a huge distraction for the team and for Phil Emery as its a red mark against him.
Actually, it would only show that Emery is willing to go against Conventional Wisdom which we already know is the case and which we also know is almost always wrong. And it would show he is looking at the long haul. Given the near certainty of Cutler going down for a few games what drafting JF would really show is that Emery is willing to give Trestman excellent QB material to work with and that he understands that Jay can get hurt. There would be no "red" mark (not that anyone knows what that means) or a Black mark either against Phil. I have no doubt Phil would make this choice should the wildly improbable chance occur.


What about the huge distraction that it would cause that you ofcourse dodged? You think Jay Cutler would like the fact that you drafted a 1st round QB even after signing him to a contract? The media would be all over this situation. You create a problem where there isnt one. Makes absolutely no sense.
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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Location: Austin Texas
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Don't lie about my past comments. I never downgraded Trevon Austin because he was not ideal H/W but because he was a LOT smaller than pro players need to be for a high first round pick, Manziel is SLIGHTLY shorter than ideal. There is no hypocrisy on my part. What I said all along was that picking a player like that in the third round was fine but insane for the first and I see nothing that has dispelled that viewpoint. Picking Pinky or Darrel Sproles in the third is fine, Austin with the 8th pick ridiculous.


I wasnt lying about your past comments at all. I was actually looking at your past threads before writing that. Maybe you need to recheck your own writing. Austin at the 8th pick was ridiculous to you because you didnt watch any of the film(typical) and went off an incredibly stupid stereotype. Did you forget about the game vs the Rams? Or did that slip your memory too?
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Should he continue to play as he has there is no question that he would be HoF material.


Come on, if most 1st round picks and Heisman winners/finalists played in the pros the way they did in college, they ALL would be HoF material. That is a comment with no substance whatsoever.

As for bad for A&M's standards, UF didn't have 10 wins for 4 straight seasons before he got there, then he gets there and they have 3 13 win seasons and one 9 win season, and had some fantastic stats while winning a Heisman, repeat Maxwell winner, Offensive Player of the Year for the SEC and the AP, etc. Extrapolate his college stat to the pros and he is a sure-fire HoF player, just as hundreds of other college players every decade would be.

Its a different game altogether at the NFL.


Just pointing out the reason nobody replied to that is because Al's statements & record with prospects has been well document. Its not pretty.
So I should switch from my Ouija Board to a Crystal Ball? Or use tea leaves as you do?


Using any of those would probably be more accurate than what you were doing before
Do you wake up rude or do you have to work up to it?
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOGRIESE wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Drafting Johnny at 14 would just be a huge distraction for the team and for Phil Emery as its a red mark against him.
Actually, it would only show that Emery is willing to go against Conventional Wisdom which we already know is the case and which we also know is almost always wrong. And it would show he is looking at the long haul. Given the near certainty of Cutler going down for a few games what drafting JF would really show is that Emery is willing to give Trestman excellent QB material to work with and that he understands that Jay can get hurt. There would be no "red" mark (not that anyone knows what that means) or a Black mark either against Phil. I have no doubt Phil would make this choice should the wildly improbable chance occur.


What about the huge distraction that it would cause that you ofcourse dodged? You think Jay Cutler would like the fact that you drafted a 1st round QB even after signing him to a contract? The media would be all over this situation. You create a problem where there isnt one. Makes absolutely no sense.
Who would be distracted? Pro players expected not to be distracted in the biggest of games? No. Jay? No. I don't think Jay would care, he is as unflappable as I have seen and knows his career could be over in a blink. Media frenzy will distract the Bears? Nothing would be worse than '85, laughable. It creates no problem except among the unimaginative and makes all kinds of sense if you look forward.
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