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Jeezla


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art_Vandalay wrote:


lol
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Gmen wrote:
Injuries happen. But aside from David Wilson, in the past ten years, you can't point to a single first round pick by the Giants and say that he was a bad player.


LOLWUT?

Ross - sucks
Prince - bad


That's just two off the top of my head

You should put more thought into your comments before you come in with a "LOLWUT?". Then again, that's not really your style, is it? Prince played better than Brandon Carr last year. In 16 games he allowed only 652 yards and 2 TDs. Not to mention he's great in run support and is a sure tackler. The Giants signing DRC and Thurmond is not an indictment of Prince.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyMossIsBoss wrote:
It's close, but I'd break it down as such


Good Picks
Eagles- 4 (Maclin, Cox, Lane, Shawn)

Giants- 5 (Eli, JPP, Prince, Pugh, Nicks)


Meh Picks
Eagles- 3 (Graham, Bunkley, Patterson)

Giants- 3 (Kiwanuka, Kenny, Ross)


Bad Picks
Eagles- 2 (McDougle, Watkins)

Giants- 1 (Wilson)


Seasons of high level starter play
Eagles- 4 (Shawn Andrews/3, Maclin/1)

Giants- 9 (Eli Manning/4, Nicks/2, JPP/1, Kenny/1, Prince/1)

That's a fair analysis. Most teams do a lot worse than that.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
Gmen wrote:
Injuries happen. But aside from David Wilson, in the past ten years, you can't point to a single first round pick by the Giants and say that he was a bad player.


LOLWUT?

Ross - sucks
Prince - bad


That's just two off the top of my head

You should put more thought into your comments before you come in with a "LOLWUT?". Then again, that's not really your style, is it? Prince played better than Brandon Carr last year. In 16 games he allowed only 652 yards and 2 TDs. Not to mention he's great in run support and is a sure tackler. The Giants signing DRC and Thurmond is not an indictment of Prince.


And every Giant fan on this forum trying to pawn him off or talking about trading him every chance they got was a sign of how great he was?

Nice job skipping over Ross - remember how much y'all were trying to pimp him before he crashed and burned?
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:

And every Giant fan on this forum trying to pawn him off or talking about trading him every chance they got was a sign of how great he was?


When was this?
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Poloc2289


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:

And every Giant fan on this forum trying to pawn him off or talking about trading him every chance they got was a sign of how great he was?


When was this?


FFMD's.
They were trying to get rid of him for peanuts
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poloc2289 wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:

And every Giant fan on this forum trying to pawn him off or talking about trading him every chance they got was a sign of how great he was?


When was this?


FFMD's.
They were trying to get rid of him for peanuts


Well if that's true then I hardly think the opinion of a few guys doing an FFMD represents what "every Giants fan on this forum" thinks about Prince. Laughing
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ninjapirate


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyMossIsBoss wrote:
It's close, but I'd break it down as such


Good Picks
Eagles- 4 (Maclin, Cox, Lane, Shawn)

Giants- 5 (Eli, JPP, Prince, Pugh, Nicks)


Meh Picks
Eagles- 3 (Graham, Bunkley, Patterson)

Giants- 3 (Kiwanuka, Kenny, Ross)


Bad Picks
Eagles- 2 (McDougle, Watkins)

Giants- 1 (Wilson)


Seasons of high level starter play
Eagles- 4 (Shawn Andrews/3, Maclin/1)

Giants- 9 (Eli Manning/4, Nicks/2, JPP/1, Kenny/1, Prince/1)



Patterson and Bunkley were good picks, if Eli, Nicks, JPP and Prince are considered good.
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Jroc04


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Jroc04 wrote:
And I would consider value very important. Even though Kiwi has had a serviceable career for the Giants, he isn't a first round talent. And even though he's been productive, that doesn't mean that's a good 1st round pick.


I guess to really know we would need a study of 1st round picks and their average career span and how many "good" years. Which "good" is highly subjective so there's no way we could truly ever have an unbiased study.


I don't think you have to make it scientific. You can just tell me that you think Kiwi was a good 1st round pick and I'll chuckle and roll eyes.

Anyone, rationally, can judge a player as being worthy of a first round. And anyone, rationally, can tell me how close that pick was to being correct. But you have to have a rational eye for the assessment.

And rationally speaking, Kiwi is not a first round talent. So, it wasn't a good pick. Sure, you got some production out of him but there's probably dozens of guys you'd rather had picked in that spot in hindsight.

A first round value is a player who locks down a starting position and plays at a high level for the duration of his gainful years. Obviously, you expect a drop off once he gets into his 30s but by that time it's clear.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jroc04 wrote:

And rationally speaking, Kiwi is not a first round talent. So, it wasn't a good pick. Sure, you got some production out of him but there's probably dozens of guys you'd rather had picked in that spot in hindsight.


Sure there are a few names selected after him I would rather have in hindsight. Ryans, Jackson, McIntosh, Jennings etc. But then again look at some of the names selected well before him that aren't even in the league anymore. Tye Hill. McCargo, Kelly Jennings etc. The Giants could have done much worse.

You also have to weigh need in. In 2006 the Giants needed D-Line depth behind Tuck and Strahan and that's what Kiwi gave them. He never emerged as a starter and for that I couldn't rate him as a "good" 1st round pick. But then again we are talking about pick number 32 of the 1st round.
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Jroc04


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Jroc04 wrote:

And rationally speaking, Kiwi is not a first round talent. So, it wasn't a good pick. Sure, you got some production out of him but there's probably dozens of guys you'd rather had picked in that spot in hindsight.


Sure there are a few names selected after him I would rather have in hindsight. Ryans, Jackson, McIntosh, Jennings etc. But then again look at some of the names selected well before him that aren't even in the league anymore. Tye Hill. McCargo, Kelly Jennings etc. The Giants could have done much worse.

You also have to weigh need in. In 2006 the Giants needed D-Line depth behind Tuck and Strahan and that's what Kiwi gave them. He never emerged as a starter and for that I couldn't rate him as a "good" 1st round pick. But then again we are talking about pick number 32 of the 1st round.


You can't compare the effectiveness of selecting players against other teams' picks. Just because another team missed on their pick doesn't make your pick better or worse. There's no correlation.

I don't have to consider a team's needs at that point to judge the value of a pick. Your team needed a rotational pass rusher and they picked him in the first round? That's the opposite of what you do in a draft. Maybe they considered him a possible starter down the road and thats how they justified it but that's a terrible reason to take a guy.

I'm willing to concede he was an "ok" pick because he wasn't a bust and he had some usefulness in his years but a good pick he is not.

I think we agree. We can move on.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jroc04 wrote:
You can't compare the effectiveness of selecting players against other teams' picks. Just because another team missed on their pick doesn't make your pick better or worse. There's no correlation.


But that is exactly what you suggested
Quote:
"Sure, you got some production out of him but there's probably dozens of guys you'd rather had picked in that spot in hindsight."
If you can go back in hindsight and look at the good/great players the Giants could have picked instead then it's fair game to go back and look at the busts picked before him at lower picks.

Jroc04 wrote:
I don't have to consider a team's needs at that point to judge the value of a pick. Your team needed a rotational pass rusher and they picked him in the first round? That's the opposite of what you do in a draft. Maybe they considered him a possible starter down the road and thats how they justified it but that's a terrible reason to take a guy.


If you have two guys who you find pretty equal in terms of overall value and they are both on the board and one fits a huge need while the other you are strong at you take the guy that you have less need for just because he "may be slightly better"? Not saying that is the case with the 2006 Giants but if you can take who you perceive to be the best player available AND he fills a need then it's a no brainer. Coming out of college Kiwi had alot of upside, it never panned out for the Giants into a starting player. But again we are talking about the 32nd overall pick here. It's not like it was a top 10 pick that never turned into a starter.

Jroc04 wrote:
I'm willing to concede he was an "ok" pick because he wasn't a bust and he had some usefulness in his years but a good pick he is not.

I think we agree. We can move on.


I'm not entirely sure we agree. Kiwi might be starter material. Probably would have started on quite a few teams over the years. He's been behind some very skilled ends in Strahan, Osi, Tuck, JPP. Plus a good portion of his career was wasted trying to convert him into an OLB (again for need). The pick itself for the Giants panned out to be just "ok" because he never emerged as a starter for them.
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Hammertime52


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You cant say Kiwi was a bad pick because hes played a couple positions, and was at the very least average over his career. Hes been on the Giants what 7-8 years now?
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Jroc04


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is this:

Gmen tried to pass off 8 of 9 first round picks as "good". While completely ignoring round value. Just because a guy has a degree of usefulness doesn't make it a "good" pick. A guy that is effective for 2 seasons, picked in the first round, and then labeled "good" or a successful pick is wrong. If that same guy was picked in round 4, that's a good pick. In round 1, a guy that has marginal impact on your team is not a good pick.

Hypothetically, the Giants picked a perennial pro bowler at 32. Meanwhile, at picks 33-36, 4 future HoF players were picked. Was the Giants pick bad? No. It was still good. The player picked in the particular round decides the grade of the pick. Players still available do not determine the grade of the pick. The hindsight comment was made to devalue his being a first rounder. As in, first round talent was actually still available. It still has no baring on an actual grade. If none of the 200+ players chosen in 2006 ever sniffed the field, you couldn't label any pick good. Regardless of comparing the players.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poloc2289 wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:

And every Giant fan on this forum trying to pawn him off or talking about trading him every chance they got was a sign of how great he was?


When was this?

FFMD's.
They were trying to get rid of him for peanuts

FFMD isn't as popular on the Giants forum as it is for other teams. It's run by a few posters who I presume are young. They took Justin Gilbert 12th overall a week after the Giants signed DRC and Walter Thurmond in real life. And I believe they tried to trade Prince for no other reason than there is not enough playing time for 4 corners, and they wanted additional picks. The fact that Maddhatter is basing his analysis of a player off of what a few people tried to do in FFMD, is very telling.

And to wrap up the whole debate, "good" is a pretty general term. My definition of what is a "good" player is probably a little more lax some of yours. It's hard for people to believe that Aaron Ross and Mathias Kiwanuka were once good players, because at this point they are long in the tooth. But in his prime, Kiwanuka had a 8 sack season, and two 6 sack seasons. In 2011 he had 84 tackles. He was part of the 4 DE passrush that was so feared for many years. I would say that's more than a "marginal impact".
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