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Woz


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*shrugs* At this point, we've positioned ourselves to generally go BPA. If that's the way they want to go.
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
tyler735 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
We don't need him. Period! End of discussion, that's nice that Bernard got lucky that the Dolphins didn't have contain on his run!

Maybe you forgot about Helu leaping over the Seattle defender as a rookie

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YOwgxfsIakI

So again, Archer is a luxury pick because we have running backs who are scat backs, and have the ability to be good returners and receivers in Helu & Thompson.

I think you're living in lala land if you believe Archer is going to come in and run the entire wr nfl route tree.

In 2012 before Helu was injured in the a Saints game they ran screens for him. I never stated he could run the entire wr tree. I said he could catch out of the backfield and was used as a wr, I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear he mostly ran screens.

You do realize that Helu's 31 receptions were the fourth highest total on the team, right? And With Gruden here, he will throw more screen to the running backs and teach RG3 to check down, meaning I expect Helu to get at least 10 more receptions in 2014, if not more...

Also, Bernard had 26 more touches than Helu, so I believe Bernard had several more touches than Helu


Lol I figured you'd try to change words around like that an try to twist the argument. You have hardly touched on anything other than helu can catch screen passes which I never denied. That is also my point...that is all he has shown as a pass catcher. Archer is a mismatch out of the backfield and in the slot helu is neither. He isnt fast or quick enough to be the type of mismatch archer is in both those spots. A lb/S can keep up with Helu enough to cover him. The same cannot be said for Archer who is to explosive to be covered by those positions. The same can be said for Sproles out of the backfield, that is where the whole mismatch thing comes into play. I never said archer can run a full route tree but he can do a more varied one than a guy like Robinson and is a much bigger threat than robinson with the ball in his hands. It seems you are caught up on stats and not players actual ability/what they bring to the table yet again.
I just honestly don't know where his reps will come from. Remember Banks? They tried to do screens for him, slant routes, hand offs, sweeps, wildcat, option and triple option. It just didn't work, and it took away from our normal offense with Morris running the ball, and RG3 doing his thing on the ground and air, which defenses couldn't stop.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Archer having much of a role except as a gadget player. He'd get a few plays on offense a game, and that's. I wouldn't see them taking their more reliable players off the field to play Archer.

I get it. You're excited about his speed and possible open field ability, but that doesn't mean he'll be a regular part of the offense. That doesn't mean you take Morris, Helu, Moss or Robinson off the field to make sure you get Archer some touches on offense. IMO


I disagree, I think he has enough talent to be better than some of the guys I've mentioned numerous times, and will have no problem seeing the field in multiple different spots if we select him in the draft. Also see my original post about Archer as far as Banks goes. Very weak comparison to say they were similar:

"Before somebody says we had someone like this with Brandon Banks...No we didn't...Banks was 5'6" 149lbs and ran a 4.42 40 at the combine, didn't have the added versatility of being a RB, and if memory serves me correct he got by on only a few routes as a WR in college, so he was essentially destined to just being a KR/PR guy in the NFL as he wasn't developed as a WR coming into the NFL, and was extremely limited by his size.

For comparisons sake Archer is 5'8" 173lbs and ran a 4.26, that is a big difference. When you are undersized every inch/pound counts, so being 2 inches taller, about 25 lbs bigger, faster, and he also has shown the toughness to take the hits at RB for 4 years...Archer put up 20 reps on the bench press, he is very strong for his size!


Just to go on a bit further with this, and since you love to keep bringing up stats so much, I got some interesting ones below. I rewatched a few of Chris Thompsons college games. From what I have seen he only did a few things out of the backfield. He ran a screen, a stab, a hitch, a flat, and a swing route. They were very basic routes for a runningback. I didn't see him lined up in the slot/outside WR spot at all in the games I watched, and don't recall him ever doing so. He didn't run anything deeper than a few yards past the line of scrimmage on all of the catches I saw in the videos.

_____________________________________________________________


Here are some numbers for what Thompson accomplished as a receiver in college:

Top 5 career highs for yards receiving in a game: 79, 54, 47, 29, 27
Top 5 career highs for for catches in a game: 8, 5, 4, 4, 3.
Longest receptions in career: 32, 31, 25, 20, 20, 19
20+ yard receptions: 5
30+ yard receptions: 2
40+ yard receptions: 0
1 receiving touchdown in career.


The following stats were compiled from 27 games from his Sophomore to Senior year. In other words, about two full seasons worth of games. He was only a situational player as a freshman so if we were to be technical it would be 36 games he appeared in throughout his college career, but it isn't really fair to include Thompsons freshman year when looking at his output totals from his college career by a per game basis.

43 catches in 27 games, so he average about 1.59 catches per game.

1 touchdown receiving in 27 games, so about .04 receiving touchdowns per game.

420 receiving yards in 27 games, so about 15.56 yards receiving per game.


These stats are solid for a running back, but certainly nothing to write home about. Also the degree of difficulty of the routes is as basic as can be, and there was no versatility with moving around to different spots.

_____________________________________________________________

As for Archer here is what he has done as a receiver in college:

Top 5 career highs for yards receiving in a game: 104, 90, 85, 81, 80
Top 5 career highs for catches for catches in a game: 8, 6, 5, 5, 4
Longest receptions in career: 73, 66, 60, 48, 44, 38, 33, 33, 33, 32, 31
20+ yard receptions: 23
30+ yard receptions: 11
40+ yard receptions: 5
12 receiving touchdowns in career.


If we use just Archers last two years of college which would be 24 games total since he became a starter as a junior...Here are his totals:

64 receptions in 24 games, so about 2.7 catches per game

8 receiving touchdowns in 24 games, so about .33 receiving touchdowns per game

888 receiving yards in 24 games, so about 37 receiving yards per game


A few other notes to keep in mind looking at the stats here.

*These stats don't take into account the fact that Dri Archer injured his ankle at the beginning of the 2013 season, and was slowed down the first part of the season, so he could have put up even better numbers had he been healthy all season.

*Archer did play in an easier conference, there is no denying that. That said, Thompson played with a very talented supporting cast, and had a 1st round pick throwing to him at QB. Archer had 2 terrible QBs that underthrew Archer on numerous occasions on deep routes, and often times didn't hit Archer in stride to be in a good position to create after the catch. Heck both the QB's Archer had barely had more TD's than INT's playing in the MAC lol.
_____________________________________________________________


Archer didn't get to play against many ranked opponents the past 2 seasons, but when he did, he put up good stats. Here is what he did when he went against ranked opponents/Big Conference opponents (SEC):

vs. Northern Illinois (2013) They were ranked as high as number 14 this year. Archer put up these stats against them:

4 catches, 80 yards, 1 touchdown
4 rushes, 13 yards
1 kick return, 100 yards, 1 touchdown

Here are his big plays from that game:
100 yard kickoff return touchdown
http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=332782309&vid=9774940

66 yard touchdown reception on deep slant playing Slot WR
http://espn.go.com/ncf/video?gameId=332782309&vid=9775626

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vs. Northern Illinois (2012) They were ranked 15th in the nation during this season.

12 carries, 15 yards, 1 touchdown
5 catches, 81 yards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vs. Rutgers (2012) They were ranked 15th in the nation at the time they played this game. Archer put up these stats against them:

18 carries, 79 yards, 1 touchdown
2 catches 36 yards

Here is a cut-up of the game vs Rutgers:
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/dri-archer-vs-rutgers-2012/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vs. Kentucky (2012) Not really a great team, but still play in the SEC, which in comparison to Kent State is a huge talent difference.

8 carries, 78 yards, 1 touchdown
4 catches, 29 yards
Also had a 41 yard kick return in this game



***Against these big opponents it should be mentioned that it is extra hard for small school RB's to compile big stats as typically the Defensive Line's from bigger schools absolutely dominate the Small School offensive lines, and LB's have a much easier time reacting to the ball carrier because of this. So when looking at what Archer was able to do is very impressive on these games. For example, even a very talented RB like Chris Johnson who went to East Carolina in college struggled to run on some of the bigger programs because of this exact problem with his weak O-line getting dominated by the bigger school more dominant D-line.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/11258/year/2007/type/college/chris-johnson

_____________________________________________________________


As mentioned before the routes I've seen Chris Thompson run in college were very basic and included:
HB screen
Stab
Flat
Swing
Hitch

None of these routes were run further than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. and I didn't see in the vids/don't recall any time he lined up in the slot at FSU

As for Archer I have seen him effectively (By effective I mean Make Catch/Beat defender) run these routes:

HB screen (RB)
WR Screen (Outside)
Bubble Screen (Slot)
15 yard out (Slot)
Post (Slot)
Corner (Slot)
Slant (Slot)
In (Slot)
Hitch (RB)
Swing (RB)
Flat (RB)
Stab (RB)
Out (Slot)
Wheel Route (Slot)
Deep Cross (slot)
Smash (slot)
Whip (slot)
Seam (RB)
Seam (Slot)


**Parenthesis indicate where Archer was lined up when he ran each route.

I watched each play for each player that I could find from the cut-ups available online. There were just a few games for Chris Thompson, but I did find his 8 catch (career high) game vs. clemson. For Archer, I saw a total of 6 game cut-ups from 2012-2013 to view which routes were run.

Here are the game cut-up links to the two players if you wanna see for yourself what the actually did on the field as receivers:
http://draftbreakdown.com/players/dri-archer/
http://draftbreakdown.com/players/chris-thompson/

_____________________________________________________________


As I've mentioned numerous times I have seen Archer run a varied route tree with a lot of routes that I have yet to see Aldrick Robinson run effectively in either college or the NFL. This will be Robinson's 4th NFL season. Last year his catch rate was abysmal yet again. I'm definitely willing to let Archer take some of his snaps away, and also give him some look in the backfield with all the different things he has shown he is capable of doing. You mentioned Moss again as a guy that Archer would have to beat out...We don't even know if Moss is going to make the final roster after last season, which was probably the worst in his career. He is another year older/slower this season. I know he has been a great player here for years, but it may be time to move on without him. You have also mentioned Helu. Please give me some sort of example of him running anything other than a basic RB route at any point in his college/NFL career so far. Otherwise if not, then Archer is obviously not near the same player, and adds a whole lot of new things that can be done with the offense from both the RB spot and WR spot.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler, that kid looks AMAZING!!
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
tyler, that kid looks AMAZING!!


Yeah, Tyler735 and I are tracking our thought process on some of the same players. I love Dri Archer and hope we can get him sometime Day 3 after we address other areas.
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thaiphoon wrote:
DCRED wrote:
tyler, that kid looks AMAZING!!


Yeah, Tyler735 and I are tracking our thought process on some of the same players. I love Dri Archer and hope we can get him sometime Day 3 after we address other areas.


Glad to see some others are on the Archer bandwagon with me. I think the guy has such a unique skill set the could make him an absolute weapon when combined with RG3/Jay Gruden.

Definitely seems like we have our eyes set on a lot of the same players Thai...As they say great minds think alike lol
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THESKINSFAN21


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Ravens traded for him.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Must Be nice to play vs Bowling Green & Akron year instead of Virginia Tech and Clemson. Those stats aver very decieving.
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Must Be nice to play vs Bowling Green & Akron year instead of Virginia Tech and Clemson. Those stats aver very decieving.


Yeah I already addressed what Archer did when he faced ranked competition...but yeah while we are on the topic of things that would be nice, it must be nice to play with a first round QB, and multiple NFL caliber offensive lineman at FSU. If level of competition is what matters, and not ability on the field, Chris Johnson must not have gotten the memo, which is also part of my previous post that you seemed to completely ignore..
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BuckleyBoy


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Must Be nice to play vs Bowling Green & Akron year instead of Virginia Tech and Clemson. Those stats aver very decieving.


Must be nice facing Montana and Montana State instead of Ohio State and Michigan(what would have been said about Vincent Jackson)

Must be nice facing James Madison and William and Mary instead of USC and UCLA(what would have been said about Flacco)

I could keep playing this game, but in all honesty using the level of competition card isn't the strongest argument. Evaluate the player, not his competition
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Brian23


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuckleyBoy wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Must Be nice to play vs Bowling Green & Akron year instead of Virginia Tech and Clemson. Those stats aver very decieving.


Must be nice facing Montana and Montana State instead of Ohio State and Michigan(what would have been said about Vincent Jackson)

Must be nice facing James Madison and William and Mary instead of USC and UCLA(what would have been said about Flacco)

I could keep playing this game, but in all honesty using the level of competition card isn't the strongest argument. Evaluate the player, not his competition


Same logic for someone like our own London Fletcher and Alfred Morris.

Still don't see why we'd be any where near Archer. That's the kind of pick you make when you're set across the board and are looking for another dimension. We need to establish our first dimension still.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuckleyBoy wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Must Be nice to play vs Bowling Green & Akron year instead of Virginia Tech and Clemson. Those stats aver very decieving.


Must be nice facing Montana and Montana State instead of Ohio State and Michigan(what would have been said about Vincent Jackson)

Must be nice facing James Madison and William and Mary instead of USC and UCLA(what would have been said about Flacco)

I could keep playing this game, but in all honesty using the level of competition card isn't the strongest argument. Evaluate the player, not his competition
I realize that. It was a dumb comment. Still, I don't see him being anything more than a special teams player and occasional offensive player. I don't see him being an all the time 3rd down back, nor a future slot receiver who catches 50-70 balls a year out of the slot.

Jeff Demps comes to mind
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
BuckleyBoy wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Must Be nice to play vs Bowling Green & Akron year instead of Virginia Tech and Clemson. Those stats aver very decieving.


Must be nice facing Montana and Montana State instead of Ohio State and Michigan(what would have been said about Vincent Jackson)

Must be nice facing James Madison and William and Mary instead of USC and UCLA(what would have been said about Flacco)

I could keep playing this game, but in all honesty using the level of competition card isn't the strongest argument. Evaluate the player, not his competition
I realize that. It was a dumb comment. Still, I don't see him being anything more than a special teams player and occasional offensive player. I don't see him being an all the time 3rd down back, nor a future slot receiver who catches 50-70 balls a year out of the slot.

Jeff Demps comes to mind


I just can't agree with that. As mentioned before I see him as a guy that can make a nice impact in the slot, and being a mismatch out of the backfield on offense. I could definitely see Archer getting 50+ catches out of the slot/backfield if he goes to a team that can properly utilize his strengths. If he isn't a Redskin I really hope he ends up a Saint, he would be a great player to follow Reggie Bush/Darren Sproles playing the role of RB/WR/KR.

As for the Jeff Demps comparison, Demps is much more like Chris Thompson than Archer as an offensive player. Demps is hardly the receiving threat that Archer is. He is more like Thompson as a RB that can run some basic RB routes, but hasn't shown much more, and also hasn't been a threat as a slot WR.

I suppose the best comparison for Archer would be a more talented/explosive version of Dexter McCluster. I just hope he gets used more in a Sproles role than how McCluster has been used as almost exclusively a slot guy so far in his career. As I have mentioned numerous times coming out of the backfield as a receiving threat could make him a nightmare to cover. Either way I see Archer being more effective than McCluster in the NFL as a slot WR because of how much more explosive Archer is.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
BuckleyBoy wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Must Be nice to play vs Bowling Green & Akron year instead of Virginia Tech and Clemson. Those stats aver very decieving.


Must be nice facing Montana and Montana State instead of Ohio State and Michigan(what would have been said about Vincent Jackson)

Must be nice facing James Madison and William and Mary instead of USC and UCLA(what would have been said about Flacco)

I could keep playing this game, but in all honesty using the level of competition card isn't the strongest argument. Evaluate the player, not his competition
I realize that. It was a dumb comment. Still, I don't see him being anything more than a special teams player and occasional offensive player. I don't see him being an all the time 3rd down back, nor a future slot receiver who catches 50-70 balls a year out of the slot.

Jeff Demps comes to mind


I just can't agree with that. As mentioned before I see him as a guy that can make a nice impact in the slot, and being a mismatch out of the backfield on offense. I could definitely see Archer getting 50+ catches out of the slot/backfield if he goes to a team that can properly utilize his strengths. If he isn't a Redskin I really hope he ends up a Saint, he would be a great player to follow Reggie Bush/Darren Sproles playing the role of RB/WR/KR.

As for the Jeff Demps comparison, Demps is much more like Chris Thompson than Archer as an offensive player. Demps is hardly the receiving threat that Archer is. He is more like Thompson as a RB that can run some basic RB routes, but hasn't shown much more, and also hasn't been a threat as a slot WR.

I suppose the best comparison for Archer would be a more talented/explosive version of Dexter McCluster. I just hope he gets used more in a Sproles role than how McCluster has been used as almost exclusively a slot guy so far in his career. As I have mentioned numerous times coming out of the backfield as a receiving threat could make him a nightmare to cover. Either way I see Archer being more effective than McCluster in the NFL as a slot WR because of how much more explosive Archer is.
Possibly, can't rule that out I guess. We'll see.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THESKINSFAN21 wrote:
...Ravens traded for him.


I got my threads mixed up and thought this was the one for DeSean Jackson, which lead to my first reaction of: Shocked Shocked Shocked

Then I realized what thread it really was and reacted like: Rolling Eyes

Then I read all of the posts between yours and mine regarding Dri Archer and went: Eh? Eh? Eh?


EDIT: Apparently, the Ravens gave up a 2015 5th for him.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000336204/article/buccaneers-trade-jeremy-zuttah-to-ravens-for-15-pick

Most of the Bucs' fans seemed to agree on "bad center, decent guard, not worth $4.5M this year or $9M over two." He is apparently re-doing his deal with the Ravens though.


Last edited by Woz on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
THESKINSFAN21 wrote:
...Ravens traded for him.


I got my threads mixed up and thought this was the one for DeSean Jackson, which lead to my first reaction of: Shocked Shocked Shocked

Then I realized what thread it really was and reacted like: Rolling Eyes

Then I read all of the posts between yours and mine regarding Dri Archer and went: Eh? Eh? Eh?


You whistled?
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