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rizzy


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He did list Helu, I don't know how much experience he had at Nebraska but I would be comfortable with him doing it. I don't really want Roberts or any primary contributor on offense doing it.
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big44dog


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's really time to stop fooling around at returner. Bad Coach or not a TE at returner is laughable. When they really need one Moss goes back there....for a fair catch. Before all this we had a FULLBACK in Rock running them back. 16 yards and a cloud of dust. KR/PR is a huge need and yes it's worth a roster spot. Our special teams from top down is a joke
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big44dog wrote:
It's really time to stop fooling around at returner. Bad Coach or not a TE at returner is laughable. When they really need one Moss goes back there....for a fair catch. Before all this we had a FULLBACK in Rock running them back. 16 yards and a cloud of dust. KR/PR is a huge need and yes it's worth a roster spot. Our special teams from top down is a joke


Yes!!! I agree completely we can likely get a guy like Archer/D Thomas late in the draft. Both are elite college return men that could also be used on offense occasionally as a gadget player who can catch the defense off guard for the big play. We have limited draft choices so if we get players that can make an impact late in the draft I see it as a victory for us.
To those against spending a 6th on a returner/wr/rb gadget player Honestly what are the chances of landing an impact player in the 6th round? Might as well go with a guy like Archer/D Thomas who are very likely to be good/great return men that can also help a bit on offense.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
As for returner, we have nobody that has shown they can effectively do it for us. We still don't have great depth at WR. Taking a guy in the 6th like Archer/Thomas who can possibly take Robinsons spot if he doesn't improve, and be a great returner sounds just fine to me. If Archer can be a Hester/Holliday, I have no problem letting him have a roster spot. Plus he could be a nice weapon of offense as a gadget player.

You listed these guys as returners:

Paul (He's a TE, and our best returner...shows how bad we are at the spot right now)
Moss (Another year older/slower...Is he going to make the team?)
Thompson (Injury Prone/Struggled as a rookie)
Williams (Cut most likely)
Robinson (Little experience in college, didn't do much in his chances)
Crawford (Another injury)

NONE of these guys is going to make teams fear us in the return game, and we likely won't see much improvement in field position if any from last season, which killed a lot of drives for us. Archer/D. Thomas on the other hand could put fear into oppenents and greatly improve our starting field position.


Here's my problem with getting a return specialist: yes, they can affect the game ... when they are on the field.

1. Ideally, a team would only have one kickoff return a game (either at the start or halftime). More kickoff returns means your defense is not preventing the other team from scoring. As a result, you've got bigger problems than one fast guy can solve. Case in point,

Chicago - 70 KOR, 29.9 points/game allowed (30th-T)
Minnesota - 66 KOR, 30.0 points/game allowed (32nd)
Oakland - 54 KOR, 28.3 points/game allowed (29th)
Washington - 51 KOR, 29.9 points/game allowed (30th-T)
Houston - 51 KOR, 26.8 points/game allowed (24th-T)

So, even though Minnesota and Chicago had two of the better return men in the league (Cordarelle Patterson = 43 returns, 1393 yards (32.4 ypr); Devin Hester = 52 returns, 1436 yards (27.6 ypr)), it didn't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things because their teams were giving up points in buckets.

2. I'd argue that punt returning (focusing on catching a ball kicked high up in the air in the face of guys charging down on you with little to no protection) is a very different skilll than kickoff returning (catching a ball that while high, is deeper and knowing that your entire team is in front of you ready to block). So, it's hard to get one guy who does both sides of the ball. In fact, while Patterson had 43 kickoff returns, he had zero punt returns. Hester had only 18 punt returns.

3. Unlike punts, kickoffs can be fielded by multiple people, so it may not involve your speed guy. Think about it: once a kickoff is kicked, it's a live ball. If the upbacks wait for the speed guy to come and get it, it is a possible fumble. Yes, you can have someone pitch it back to your speed guy but that has its own risks as well. Again, you can see that from the above numbers: Patterson only handled 65.2% of the kickoffs, and Hester had 74.3% of the kickoffs. So, even with a top notch guy, he might not even get the ball on that play a quarter to a third of the time. Especially if teams fear him.

Let's take the guy with the most combined returns
Keshawn Martin (HOU) - 36 kickoff returns, 39 punt returns

Martin took 92.9% of the punts (39 of 42), and 70.6% of the kickoffs (36 of 51).

75 plays ... as compared to the 1,089 plays the Texans ran as an offense. Martin also contributed 22 receptions, which is a third of his return numbers.

Now, you've said, oh we can get a guy like that late in the draft.

Except:
Patterson was a 1st rounder.
Hester was a 2nd rounder.

Other top level returners are guys like Ted Ginn (1st) and Dexter McCluster (2nd). Sure, there are also guys like Trindon Holliday (6th) and Dwayne Harris (UDFA, I think). But it's not as easy as you think.

Let's also stop with the "good/great return men that can also help a bit on offense" way of thinking. None of the guys I have mentioned contribute much to their offenses (okay, Patterson does now, but that's going to taper off real quick). Why? Because if you are important to your offense (or defense), the team doesn't want to put you in harm's way on special teams. It's one of the most brutal plays in a brutal sport. If you get hurt on teams, not only do the special teams suffer but so does the offense or defense as a whole. For offensive players, another problem comes from the fact that you just ran a bunch and now need to get right back out into formation and play so more.


I'm not going to argue that our special teams is not a joke. That's a proven fact. However, you would do better investing in the gunners and linemen than in a returner. The marginal upgrade in talent in the blockers will make even your tight end or fullback look better.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We just don't have the "luxury" of picking a "luxury" pick in this draft, such as primarily just a return man, I'm sorry.

90% of this forum wanted our last great return man gone because he didn't have a role on offense and we didn't draft that guy! and you want to draft a return specialist when we need just about everything first?

I'd rather draft a guy in round 4 or 5 who is a WR or DB and can return.

Of course, as I said before we have several guys in our roster already who can do the job with better coaching from our special teams coach.
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is gonna be kinda lengthy, but hopefully you read through it. Dri Archer is more than just a KR/PR, I used the term gadget player on him previously, and I understand some people take that as a negative connotation, but what I really meant is VERSATILE.

We currently have these guys at WR:
Garcon
Roberts
Moss (May be cut before the season starts. Regardless he is on his last legs)
Robinson (Abysmal catch rate again last season, even is he does improve a bit, we still have major depth issues at WR)
Williams (Camp Fodder...Yeah that is all he is)

We will likely draft a WR in the 2nd/3rd round, but dipping into the well again late in the draft for a guy that can be a great return man that can do so much more, doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Gruden loves to rotate WR's, and it seems like we always have WR's injured/nicked up. With Archer he has a TON of talent if utilized correctly, but playing for a small school, being in a draft class that has so much talent (Record number of WR's declared this season, and a ton of RB's as well), Having a down year because of an ankle injury as a senior, and being undersized might allow him to slide to us later in the draft.

As a pure WR he could compete with and possibly even beat out Aldrick Robinson as a deep threat, from a speed standpoint he certainly has an extra gear that even Robinson doesn't possess, but to just use Archer in that role would be a waste of his ability. He also has excellent elusiveness in the open field to make guys miss, which is something Robinson doesn't really possess, Robinson is more of a straight line guy. If you disagree please show me some plays that display Robinson making guys miss in the open field it is not a common occurrence, which is fine for what Robinson is as a deep threat. Also I hate to use stats as a sole basis for argument, but rather look at the skills the player possesses when watching games (See my long rants about Marquise Goodwin being a better NFL WR than College WR last season on this site for proof lol), so comparing what Robinson did to what Archer did stat wise receiving in college will carry little weight with how I analyze both players from an ability standpoint. Also doesn't matter a ton since I see Archer being a bigger focal point in the offense since he can impact a game in many different ways.

In college Archer was used very similarly to how the Saints used Darren Sproles, but actually had an even more diverse route tree when lined up as a WR in comparison to Sproles (Notably he had more down field routes than Sproles has with the Saints). He was a difference maker both rushing and receiving at Kent State. He lined up all over the field playing RB, slot WR, and outside WR on offense. Seeing his ability to run different routes from both the slot and on the outside as a WR is a huge plus.

Watching some of Archer's game cut-ups has me salivating over the possibility of having he and RG3 on the field at the same time. He likely won't be used as much at RB as Sproles was with the Saints, but he definitely could get some touches at RB and be a huge mismatch running routes out of the backfield. Then he could also line up in the slot as well for us. Guys with this explosiveness/skill set are pretty rare, but as mentioned before he can fall in the draft because of the reasons listed above.

Before somebody says we had someone like this with Brandon Banks...No we didn't...Banks was 5'6" 149lbs and ran a 4.42 40 at the combine, didn't have the added versatility of being a RB, and if memory serves me correct he got by on only a few routes as a WR in college, so he was essentially destined to just being a KR/PR guy in the NFL as he wasn't developed as a WR coming into the NFL, and was extremely limited by his size.

For comparisons sake Archer is 5'8" 173lbs and ran a 4.26, that is a big difference. When you are undersized every inch/pound counts, so being 2 inches taller, about 25 lbs bigger, faster, and he also has shown the toughness to take the hits at RB for 4 years...Archer put up 20 reps on the bench press, he is very strong for his size!

Watching his game tape he does have some areas he needs to improve. His hands are inconsistent (I'd rate them in the same ballpark as Aldrick Robinson), so he will leave you frustrated at times with the dropped ball, he isn't going to be much of a threat to go up and get the ball from a defender/doesn't really adjust/position body that well to poorly thrown balls. Those are two areas that even Robinson was better in coming out of college, but as mentioned before Archer has even more speed, and is way more elusive in the open field, so there are some differences in their skill sets. Basically Archer has shown flashes as a WR, but still has a ways to go to become a full time WR. I don't think he will ever be viewed as a number 1 or 2 type WR, but that is perfectly fine. He however could be a nice option as a slot guy/situational deep threat. That is if he was to stay as just a WR without being utilized as a RB (which I think would be a mistake). If he is used just as a WR in the NFL, I think he would be a lot like Andrew Hawkins if I was to compare him to an NFL WR. The value Archer adds coming out of the backfield is such a huge threat though, it almost forces the opposing team to a mismatch in coverage, which is part of why Sproles is so effective. This is also the reason why I don't worry about Archer's hands as much as Robinson's hands. Archer will be making catches that aren't going to be that high in difficulty. He will catch out of the backfield, and on a lot of shorter/underneath routes, so he shouldn't have as many problems catching these especially out of the backfield in a mismatch on a LB/S. This mismatch also helps Sproles out a ton as a pass catcher as he doesn't have a lot of difficult passes to catch. Robinson as I've mentioned before is essentially a one trick pony who for the most part in how he is mainly utilized on the 9 route, so I'm sure Archer will have some drops similar to that of Robinson when he does goes for down field routes, but Archers added versatility out of the backfield/underneath routes makes him much more valuable as a player. His open field ability is special.

Judging by what Gruden has done the past few seasons with the Bengals, I think he would love to utilize a guy like Archer in the same way Sproles has been utilized with the Saints. The past year he had Gio Bernard, who had over 50 receptions out of the backfield as just a rookie, and also had Andrew Hawkins who has a similar skill set as a WR to Archer. Plus we were rumored to be after Sproles when he was up for trade this offseason, and also rumored to be interested in Andrew Hawkins, so I really could see Gruden wanting a player like Archer.

As far as the draft goes, Sproles didn't get picked until the end of the 4th round because of size concerns, and he played at a much bigger school at Kansas St, so it is possible for Archer to make it to us in mid/late rounds. That said, after his great combine it could be unlikely, so I honestly wouldn't be upset if we used a 4th on Archer (The more I watch his tape, the more I think someone will pull the trigger on him by the 3rd/4th, I have him going to us in the 6th in my last mock draft, but like I said while re-watching his tape, I just don't see NFL scouts passing him up that long, but crazier things have happened). It really only takes 1 team to fall in love with a player, so he definitely could be picked earlier than anticipated. For the sake of me being optimistic, I'm going to hope he falls to us in the mid/late rounds Wink


Also since I feel this guy will be mentioned, I don't have much faith in Chris Thompson anymore, he has had serious season ending injuries in 3 straight years all to different parts of his body, he also doesn't possess the same elements as a WR that Archer possesses, nor the same level of speed/explosiveness. Archer was only slowed by a rolled ankle in college, but didn't suffer any serious injuries, which is also another huge bonus.

Here are some cut-ups of Archer from the past two seasons (When watching cut-ups remember they aren't just highlight videos, but instead show all touches/targets the player has each game)

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/dri-archer-vs-ohio-2013/
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/dri-archer-vs-miami-of-ohio-2012/
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/dri-archer-vs-arkansas-state-2012/
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/dri-archer-vs-rutgers-2012/
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/dri-archer-vs-towson-buffalo-bowling-green/

If you don't feel like going through all the videos that show what he can do, just watch this play to see how explosive he is in the open field, he looks like he is moving so much faster than everyone else:



As you can see his explosiveness is rare. He is one of the most...if not the most explosive player I have seen in my 15 years of following the draft. This isn't hyperbole either. There have been some guys that are a smidge faster such as Trindon Holliday, Jacoby Ford, and Marquise Goodwin to name a few. The difference between Archer and others is his speed is elite, but on top of that he has the ability to maintain speed in and out of his cuts much better than many others that just have excellent speed. He also uses his cuts well to quickly make a man miss and get up field in a hurry. If utilized correctly somebody has a very special talent for their offense. Oh yeah did I mention he is ranked 8th in kick return TD's out of everyone in D-1 since the year 2000, so as I've touched upon in previous posts he could be a great return man for us as well. Cool

*I focused solely on Archer as I like him more than D. Thomas, but Thomas does also bring some of the same skills to the table. I don't think Thomas is as explosive or talented as Archer as either a RB/WR, but still could be used in a similar role, but just not quite as effective as Archer. [/img]
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Brian23


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Err. Rock was pretty solid in making sure we got to at least the 20 which is about on of the biggest things you want out of KR. Yes big returns and points are awesome but I feel like you get guys who are looking to do that you risk them not getting anything at all.

Punt Returner, as Woz said, is another beast entirely. Also not something you want to really expend a lot for.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I can say is, I didn't realize Bowling Green played in the NFL...

There's no way he'd be able to do the things he did there in the NFL. I love Archer as well but again, we have Thompson to develop and I understand Thompson is injury prone but there's just no need to go drafting a scat back and return man in every draft. We need to develop Thompson more in that role.
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
All I can say is, I didn't realize Bowling Green played in the NFL...

There's no way he'd be able to do the things he did there in the NFL. I love Archer as well but again, we have Thompson to develop and I understand Thompson is injury prone but there's just no need to go drafting a scat back and return man in every draft. We need to develop Thompson more in that role.


You could say that about any play with any player in college going to the NFL. That said it doesn't really make it true. I heard people say last year that Cordarelle Patterson wouldn't be able to get away with the plays he did in college against NFL competition, yet he somehow pulled off about 10 touchdowns as a rookie making very similar plays to what he had in college. You are missing the finer details that are shown in all the cut-ups/even that one highlight vs. Bowling Green. Archer displays rare speed/agility/acceleration that few people possess in the NFL. He possesses a unique skill set that is different and more impressive than what Chris Thompson has (Archer showed he can actually line up at multiple wr positions, run a variety of routes, and also be a threat out of the backfield both rushing and receiving) and he doesn't have the major injury concerns that Thompson has. It seems you ignored all the well thought out points I gave in my previous post and instead just decided to give a response that really offered little to refute or touch upon what I had even said.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
All I can say is, I didn't realize Bowling Green played in the NFL...

There's no way he'd be able to do the things he did there in the NFL. I love Archer as well but again, we have Thompson to develop and I understand Thompson is injury prone but there's just no need to go drafting a scat back and return man in every draft. We need to develop Thompson more in that role.


You could say that about any play with any player in college going to the NFL. That said it doesn't really make it true. I heard people say last year that Cordarelle Patterson wouldn't be able to get away with the plays he did in college against NFL competition, yet he somehow pulled off about 10 touchdowns as a rookie making very similar plays to what he had in college. You are missing the finer details that are shown in all the cut-ups/even that one highlight vs. Bowling Green. Archer displays rare speed/agility/acceleration that few people possess in the NFL. He possesses a unique skill set that is different and more impressive than what Chris Thompson has (Archer showed he can actually line up at multiple wr positions, run a variety of routes, and also be a threat out of the backfield both rushing and receiving) and he doesn't have the major injury concerns that Thompson has. It seems you ignored all the well thought out points I gave in my previous post and instead just decided to give a response that really offered little to refute or touch upon what I had even said.
I didn't respond to everything, because 1 it was very lengthy and 2 I see it as a luxury pick.

Again, I love Archer but I also think that Helu and Thompson can do just fine as our 3rd down backs.

Heck, Helu had 49 receptions, 379 yds, a TD and 151 carries, 640 yds, 2 TDs as a rookie! That's not too far off from Bernard's 56 receptions, 514 yds, 3 TDs and 170 carries, 695 yds and 5 Tds.

The main difference between the two is actually playing time or opportunity. Helu's never going to get the amount of playing time as a Bernard will get because Helu has a pro bowl caliber running back infront of him.

That's just another reason why I don't see it happening. Even you have to see that if we drafted Archer, he would be primarily a return man and that job has been greatly diminished since the new rules have been instituted by the NFL.

He'd also be someone who'd rarely see the field on offense. Yeah, it's nice to point out that he can catch and run the ball like a Sproles but given the depth we have at running back right now I don't think he'd get much playing time over Roy Helu who's not also a great receiver (which you keep ignoring), on top of that a reliable pass protector (which Archer is not), Helu is a good receiver out of the backfield, and we have lined up Helu as an outside and slot receiver. Helu has done everything in the NFL already on offense that Archer may or may not be able to do at the NFL level on offense.

Frankly, the way to solve this kick return problem IMO is easy, make Roy Helu your full time kick returner.

Also, Cordarelle Patterson was a first round pick wide receiver, there's a huge difference between him and Archer. That's really not a good comparison.
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
tyler735 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
All I can say is, I didn't realize Bowling Green played in the NFL...

There's no way he'd be able to do the things he did there in the NFL. I love Archer as well but again, we have Thompson to develop and I understand Thompson is injury prone but there's just no need to go drafting a scat back and return man in every draft. We need to develop Thompson more in that role.


You could say that about any play with any player in college going to the NFL. That said it doesn't really make it true. I heard people say last year that Cordarelle Patterson wouldn't be able to get away with the plays he did in college against NFL competition, yet he somehow pulled off about 10 touchdowns as a rookie making very similar plays to what he had in college. You are missing the finer details that are shown in all the cut-ups/even that one highlight vs. Bowling Green. Archer displays rare speed/agility/acceleration that few people possess in the NFL. He possesses a unique skill set that is different and more impressive than what Chris Thompson has (Archer showed he can actually line up at multiple wr positions, run a variety of routes, and also be a threat out of the backfield both rushing and receiving) and he doesn't have the major injury concerns that Thompson has. It seems you ignored all the well thought out points I gave in my previous post and instead just decided to give a response that really offered little to refute or touch upon what I had even said.
I didn't respond to everything, because 1 it was very lengthy and 2 I see it as a luxury pick.

Again, I love Archer but I also think that Helu and Thompson can do just fine as our 3rd down backs.

Heck, Helu had 49 receptions, 379 yds, a TD and 151 carries, 640 yds, 2 TDs as a rookie! That's not too far off from Bernard's 56 receptions, 514 yds, 3 TDs and 170 carries, 695 yds and 5 Tds.

The main difference between the two is actually playing time or opportunity. Helu's never going to get the amount of playing time as a Bernard will get because Helu has a pro bowl caliber running back infront of him.

That's just another reason why I don't see it happening. Even you have to see that if we drafted Archer, he would be primarily a return man and that job has been greatly diminished since the new rules have been instituted by the NFL.

He'd also be someone who'd rarely see the field on offense. Yeah, it's nice to point out that he can catch and run the ball like a Sproles but given the depth we have at running back right now I don't think he'd get much playing time over Roy Helu who's not also a great receiver (which you keep ignoring), on top of that a reliable pass protector (which Archer is not), Helu is a good receiver out of the backfield, and we have lined up Helu as an outside and slot receiver. Helu has done everything in the NFL already on offense that Archer may or may not be able to do at the NFL level on offense.

Frankly, the way to solve this kick return problem IMO is easy, make Roy Helu your full time kick returner.

Also, Cordarelle Patterson was a first round pick wide receiver, there's a huge difference between him and Archer. That's really not a good comparison.


That is the thing you keep pigeonholing him by saying 3rd down back...Archer can be much more than that on offense. He can also line up at WR. You compared Helu to Bernard as far as numbers, which can be compared, but also shows that Bernard was much more effective in that role. They had a similar amount of touches, but Bernard had 5 more TD's, and way more Receiving yards/yards per catch, which shows that Helu wasn't nearly as effective on a per touch basis. That is if you just look at the stats which doesn't tell the whole story.

Which kinda reminds me, Bernard was able to make plays like this:



This seems to be somewhat similar to the level of ridiculousness that Archer play was that I had posted as far as missed tackles, and cutting around the field goes. So yeah I stand firmly still in thinking that Archer will be able to make a dynamic plays on offense not that different from what I posted as he his more explosive than Gio Bernard.

You mentioned Helu played outside WR/Slot WR. Please enlighten me show me some proof of this. He may have taken a snap or two that I cannot recall, but I definitely don't EVER remember him being effective at WR, or running a diverse route tree. Helu has never been able to run a 9 route for a long gain as a deep threat, so NO Helu hasn't done near the things that Archer can do as a WR. Helu also is not nearly as fast or quick as Archer.

If we drafted Archer he could take touches from both Robinson as a deep threat (would likely be better utilized than Robinson on shorter/underneath routes because of the difference in quickness/experience in running those routes. Robinson hasn't shown much outside of his deep routes, and is hardly a big threat in the open field as he doesn't make many people miss), and also from Helu as a pass catcher out of the backfield as Archer is far more explosive. Given our luck with injuries at these 2 positions it is almost a lock to say we will have some guys miss time at these two positions, so even then he would provide good depth for us that would add a lot of versatility if he doesn't lock down playing time outright as a rookie. He also would give us a much more explosive look at KR than what even Helu would give us.

I view Archer as an upgrade that can help us out at a variety of positions, and not just a "luxury" pick.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don't need him. Period! End of discussion, that's nice that Bernard got lucky that the Dolphins didn't have contain on his run!

Maybe you forgot about Helu leaping over the Seattle defender as a rookie

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YOwgxfsIakI

So again, Archer is a luxury pick because we have running backs who are scat backs, and have the ability to be good returners and receivers in Helu & Thompson.

I think you're living in lala land if you believe Archer is going to come in and run the entire wr nfl route tree.

In 2012 before Helu was injured in the a Saints game they ran screens for him. I never stated he could run the entire wr tree. I said he could catch out of the backfield and was used as a wr, I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear he mostly ran screens.

You do realize that Helu's 31 receptions were the fourth highest total on the team, right? And With Gruden here, he will throw more screen to the running backs and teach RG3 to check down, meaning I expect Helu to get at least 10 more receptions in 2014, if not more...

Also, Bernard had 26 more touches than Helu, so I believe Bernard had several more touches than Helu
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tyler735


Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1577
Location: Minnesota
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
We don't need him. Period! End of discussion, that's nice that Bernard got lucky that the Dolphins didn't have contain on his run!

Maybe you forgot about Helu leaping over the Seattle defender as a rookie

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YOwgxfsIakI

So again, Archer is a luxury pick because we have running backs who are scat backs, and have the ability to be good returners and receivers in Helu & Thompson.

I think you're living in lala land if you believe Archer is going to come in and run the entire wr nfl route tree.

In 2012 before Helu was injured in the a Saints game they ran screens for him. I never stated he could run the entire wr tree. I said he could catch out of the backfield and was used as a wr, I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear he mostly ran screens.

You do realize that Helu's 31 receptions were the fourth highest total on the team, right? And With Gruden here, he will throw more screen to the running backs and teach RG3 to check down, meaning I expect Helu to get at least 10 more receptions in 2014, if not more...

Also, Bernard had 26 more touches than Helu, so I believe Bernard had several more touches than Helu


Lol I figured you'd try to change words around like that an try to twist the argument. You have hardly touched on anything other than helu can catch screen passes which I never denied. That is also my point...that is all he has shown as a pass catcher. Archer is a mismatch out of the backfield and in the slot helu is neither. He isnt fast or quick enough to be the type of mismatch archer is in both those spots. A lb/S can keep up with Helu enough to cover him. The same cannot be said for Archer who is to explosive to be covered by those positions. The same can be said for Sproles out of the backfield, that is where the whole mismatch thing comes into play. I never said archer can run a full route tree but he can do a more varied one than a guy like Robinson and is a much bigger threat than robinson with the ball in his hands. It seems you are caught up on stats and not players actual ability/what they bring to the table yet again.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 62507
Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
We don't need him. Period! End of discussion, that's nice that Bernard got lucky that the Dolphins didn't have contain on his run!

Maybe you forgot about Helu leaping over the Seattle defender as a rookie

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YOwgxfsIakI

So again, Archer is a luxury pick because we have running backs who are scat backs, and have the ability to be good returners and receivers in Helu & Thompson.

I think you're living in lala land if you believe Archer is going to come in and run the entire wr nfl route tree.

In 2012 before Helu was injured in the a Saints game they ran screens for him. I never stated he could run the entire wr tree. I said he could catch out of the backfield and was used as a wr, I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear he mostly ran screens.

You do realize that Helu's 31 receptions were the fourth highest total on the team, right? And With Gruden here, he will throw more screen to the running backs and teach RG3 to check down, meaning I expect Helu to get at least 10 more receptions in 2014, if not more...

Also, Bernard had 26 more touches than Helu, so I believe Bernard had several more touches than Helu


Lol I figured you'd try to change words around like that an try to twist the argument. You have hardly touched on anything other than helu can catch screen passes which I never denied. That is also my point...that is all he has shown as a pass catcher. Archer is a mismatch out of the backfield and in the slot helu is neither. He isnt fast or quick enough to be the type of mismatch archer is in both those spots. A lb/S can keep up with Helu enough to cover him. The same cannot be said for Archer who is to explosive to be covered by those positions. The same can be said for Sproles out of the backfield, that is where the whole mismatch thing comes into play. I never said archer can run a full route tree but he can do a more varied one than a guy like Robinson and is a much bigger threat than robinson with the ball in his hands. It seems you are caught up on stats and not players actual ability/what they bring to the table yet again.
I just honestly don't know where his reps will come from. Remember Banks? They tried to do screens for him, slant routes, hand offs, sweeps, wildcat, option and triple option. It just didn't work, and it took away from our normal offense with Morris running the ball, and RG3 doing his thing on the ground and air, which defenses couldn't stop.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Archer having much of a role except as a gadget player. He'd get a few plays on offense a game, and that's. I wouldn't see them taking their more reliable players off the field to play Archer.

I get it. You're excited about his speed and possible open field ability, but that doesn't mean he'll be a regular part of the offense. That doesn't mean you take Morris, Helu, Moss or Robinson off the field to make sure you get Archer some touches on offense. IMO
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tyler735


Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1577
Location: Minnesota
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
tyler735 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
We don't need him. Period! End of discussion, that's nice that Bernard got lucky that the Dolphins didn't have contain on his run!

Maybe you forgot about Helu leaping over the Seattle defender as a rookie

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YOwgxfsIakI

So again, Archer is a luxury pick because we have running backs who are scat backs, and have the ability to be good returners and receivers in Helu & Thompson.

I think you're living in lala land if you believe Archer is going to come in and run the entire wr nfl route tree.

In 2012 before Helu was injured in the a Saints game they ran screens for him. I never stated he could run the entire wr tree. I said he could catch out of the backfield and was used as a wr, I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear he mostly ran screens.

You do realize that Helu's 31 receptions were the fourth highest total on the team, right? And With Gruden here, he will throw more screen to the running backs and teach RG3 to check down, meaning I expect Helu to get at least 10 more receptions in 2014, if not more...

Also, Bernard had 26 more touches than Helu, so I believe Bernard had several more touches than Helu


Lol I figured you'd try to change words around like that an try to twist the argument. You have hardly touched on anything other than helu can catch screen passes which I never denied. That is also my point...that is all he has shown as a pass catcher. Archer is a mismatch out of the backfield and in the slot helu is neither. He isnt fast or quick enough to be the type of mismatch archer is in both those spots. A lb/S can keep up with Helu enough to cover him. The same cannot be said for Archer who is to explosive to be covered by those positions. The same can be said for Sproles out of the backfield, that is where the whole mismatch thing comes into play. I never said archer can run a full route tree but he can do a more varied one than a guy like Robinson and is a much bigger threat than robinson with the ball in his hands. It seems you are caught up on stats and not players actual ability/what they bring to the table yet again.
I just honestly don't know where his reps will come from. Remember Banks? They tried to do screens for him, slant routes, hand offs, sweeps, wildcat, option and triple option. It just didn't work, and it took away from our normal offense with Morris running the ball, and RG3 doing his thing on the ground and air, which defenses couldn't stop.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Archer having much of a role except as a gadget player. He'd get a few plays on offense a game, and that's. I wouldn't see them taking their more reliable players off the field to play Archer.

I get it. You're excited about his speed and possible open field ability, but that doesn't mean he'll be a regular part of the offense. That doesn't mean you take Morris, Helu, Moss or Robinson off the field to make sure you get Archer some touches on offense. IMO


I disagree, I think he has enough talent to be better than some of the guys I've mentioned numerous times, and will have no problem seeing the field in multiple different spots if we select him in the draft. Also see my original post about Archer as far as Banks goes. Very weak comparison to say they were similar:

"Before somebody says we had someone like this with Brandon Banks...No we didn't...Banks was 5'6" 149lbs and ran a 4.42 40 at the combine, didn't have the added versatility of being a RB, and if memory serves me correct he got by on only a few routes as a WR in college, so he was essentially destined to just being a KR/PR guy in the NFL as he wasn't developed as a WR coming into the NFL, and was extremely limited by his size.

For comparisons sake Archer is 5'8" 173lbs and ran a 4.26, that is a big difference. When you are undersized every inch/pound counts, so being 2 inches taller, about 25 lbs bigger, faster, and he also has shown the toughness to take the hits at RB for 4 years...Archer put up 20 reps on the bench press, he is very strong for his size!
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