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SuperFlyTNT


Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 447
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: Safety Upgrade Reply with quote

So clearly we have a big need for an upgrade at the strong safety position over Yeremiah Bell. A guy that can cover TE's and be an enforcer in the middle being the ideal.

I'm a bit confused - this is clearly a need for a strong safety to me - ex: Kam Chancellor... Yet, a bunch of you seem to think we can fill that role with guys who are supposed to be faster and smaller free safeties. Don't you think it'd help more dealing with big dual role TE's (blocking and receiving) to get a bigger more physical strong safety?
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stchamp98


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Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good question, one that I've been researching for some time now. While it would certainly make sense to add some size and physicality to the back half the way Seattle has with a guy like Kam Chancellor, I believe our problem covering opposing tight ends stems less from a lack of size from the safety position and more from a lack of range, especially as it pertained to Yeremiah Bell. In my film study and metrics analysis I specifically focused on three games from 2013: Arizona vs. San Francisco game one, Arizona vs. New Orleans and Seattle vs. New Orleans and it became clear to me where a big part of our issue lies, not all of our issues certainly but a big part no doubt: Our deep middle safety in those games (Bell) did not have the range to contain those deep middle routes, which are typically seam and post routes (The metrics for us in those games against the seam in particular were pretty brutal) against fast ground covering, 4.3 40 tight ends and Seattle with Earl Thomas does. The two New Orleans games were telling, it was clear as day that Sean Payton and Drew Brees had planned going in to attack the seam against our defense but in the Seattle game it was completely ignored due to the presence of Earl Thomas. Thomas is only 5'10 1/2" but he's extremely fast (4.43 40 at the combine), extremely fluid, he's a ballhawk to the core and his range is unlimited. You can't take the seam and post from him. I saw a metric that stated only 8 seam pass attempts were even thrown all year by Seattle opponents, which is unreal. Eliminating those routes and that area of the field against teams that feature speed tight ends erases a huge percentage of their offenses and changes the dynamic of the games. On the flip side, playing a safety who lacks range in that deep middle spot makes your defense more susceptible to those types of tight ends and plays into the hands of the opposing offense. IMO, that's what we saw in 2013.

To wrap up the novel, a smaller, speedy, rangy safety could in theory make a big impact on the way our defense performs against speedy tight ends. Not saying it couldn't be done by a bigger, more physical brand of guy though (Steve Keim talked at the combine about needing "length" to help us in this area and that may well be true) because it very well could but from what I've seen, I think a player with a little more speed and field range is our best bet.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking from the other side of the football, when you watch the film you understand real quick why Bruce Arians has been adamant about adding a speed pass catcher. A guy who can take the seam on offense is very important and right now we don't have one. I had hoped Rob Housler would be that guy but it hasn't worked, unfortunately.
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JLW


Joined: 25 Feb 2013
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it all depends how you feel about Rashad Johnson. Do you think he's good? If yes, then a strong safety is a need. Do you think he's not starter quality? Then we need two safeties.

Personally, I feel like Bell shouldn't have been on the field anywhere near as much as he was last year, especially not over a player who I feel is actually pretty decent in Rashad. I think Bell was a favorite player of Bowles (they were together for a while in Miami), though, so I think that skewed judgment.
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SuperFlyTNT


Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 447
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent analysis champ - as always much appreciated serious research Smile .

So it even sounds to me like a scheme issue too since we had the strong safety as the deep middle safety a lot. I wonder if that's mostly due to not wanting the honey badger back there because he's a rookie - or just wanting him near the LoS because he's such a sure tackler and great on the blitz - or if you're right JLW, and it was just Bowles leaning on one of his 'boys too much.

I've been pretty happy with Rashad - man has he shown a lot of improvement since he was a rookie - mostly after following A-Dub and really paying attention to his diet and work-out regimen. He's fast and physical enough now - and he's always been smart. I'm excited for Tony Jefferson - especially considering he was a rookie free-agent - he seems like a gamer, but coaches never seem too impressed with his off the field and practice performance. Any of our guys though - Honey Badger, Rashad, and Tony Jefferson - are not Earl Thomas - and probably no-one in this draft is Earl Thomas either. So, maybe the best answer is we just roll with Rashad and Tony Jefferson playing that deep middle safety role most of the time. Could definitely use one more guy to step in in case the honey badger is slow coming back though.

On offense it'd sure be nice if we got a speedster like Bruce Ellington to come in every now and then in the slot to stretch out that seam. I still think Housler has a chance - if he just improves his abilities to navigate through and make catches in traffic. He's about as fast as it gets for a TE - maybe not physical and shifty enough though.
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DDOCKETT90


Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 702
Location: GILBERT, AZ
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What. safety do you want champ?
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holeman1


Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 727
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

like i said in my mock offseason, taking a first or second round choice would help, i would like HaHa Clinton-Dix on our team
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DJ_Fka


Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 5170
Location: Brisvegas, Land Down Under
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I beginning to think both Pryor and HaHa will be gone by 20.
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LuckyNumber11


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Posts: 5397
Location: Nebraska
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJ_Fka wrote:
I beginning to think both Pryor and HaHa will be gone by 20.

I think Pryor will be there, Doubt Haha will though
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AZPSquared


Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 1416
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
DJ_Fka wrote:
I beginning to think both Pryor and HaHa will be gone by 20.

I think Pryor will be there, Doubt Haha will though


I agree, but i prefer Ha Ha
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LuckyNumber11


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZPSquared wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
DJ_Fka wrote:
I beginning to think both Pryor and HaHa will be gone by 20.

I think Pryor will be there, Doubt Haha will though


I agree, but i prefer Ha Ha


I don't want to pick Pryor so...
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DDOCKETT90 wrote:
What. safety do you want champ?


Hey there bud, long time no see. How ya been?

I guess it's kinda like JLW said earlier, it depends on your view of Rashad Johnson. If you think he can be that deep middle, man free safety guy then you need to look more towards the box safeties of this draft who play the run, get after the quarterback and can be used as spies up in the box inside the 20s against running quarterbacks (Crucial in a division with Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick). There are only a few very specific guys who fit that role, not everyone in this class does. If you don't think Rashad can play that spot, then you need to look at rangier, speedier guys who can possibly play those deep middle routes. There are also only a few specific guys in this draft who can do that, a few of which are possible CB converts. No real answer either way, it just depends on what the view of our current personnel is.
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apollo14000


Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 4221
Location: PA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a big fan of Jimmie Ward. I think he's at least above average in every facet of playing safety. He's got good range, great coverage skills, and is a reliable tackler. He's about 192 pounds but that's not too terrible. Like to see that up closer to 200-205 but his height is good.

Reminds me of Eric Weddle and Antoine Bethea. Solid all around game, can definitely cover and play both safety positions, but may struggle fighting through blocks in the run game if he doesn't improve his strength. His instincts are probably his best attribute. Had 7 interceptions last year.

Great character guy too. Pretty certain he's a team captain as well. I'd draft him as high as the 2nd and I'd take him there over Pryor/HaHa in the 1st. Those guys have a lot of hype but when I watch them I see a lot of errors. I don't like to see mental errors in that last line of defense.
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DDOCKETT90


Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 702
Location: GILBERT, AZ
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
DDOCKETT90 wrote:
What. safety do you want champ?


Hey there bud, long time no see. How ya been?

I guess it's kinda like JLW said earlier, it depends on your view of Rashad Johnson. If you think he can be that deep middle, man free safety guy then you need to look more towards the box safeties of this draft who play the run, get after the quarterback and can be used as spies up in the box inside the 20s against running quarterbacks (Crucial in a division with Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick). There are only a few very specific guys who fit that role, not everyone in this class does. If you don't think Rashad can play that spot, then you need to look at rangier, speedier guys who can possibly play those deep middle routes. There are also only a few specific guys in this draft who can do that, a few of which are possible CB converts. No real answer either way, it just depends on what the view of our current personnel is.

Who are the best at both things?
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stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DDOCKETT90 wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
DDOCKETT90 wrote:
What. safety do you want champ?


Hey there bud, long time no see. How ya been?

I guess it's kinda like JLW said earlier, it depends on your view of Rashad Johnson. If you think he can be that deep middle, man free safety guy then you need to look more towards the box safeties of this draft who play the run, get after the quarterback and can be used as spies up in the box inside the 20s against running quarterbacks (Crucial in a division with Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick). There are only a few very specific guys who fit that role, not everyone in this class does. If you don't think Rashad can play that spot, then you need to look at rangier, speedier guys who can possibly play those deep middle routes. There are also only a few specific guys in this draft who can do that, a few of which are possible CB converts. No real answer either way, it just depends on what the view of our current personnel is.

Who are the best at both things?


Purely my own opinion, you can take it for what it's worth but I prefer Bradley Roby as a man free convert and Deon Bucannon as a box safety. I have issues with all the consensus guys: Clinton-Dix, Pryor, Ward, etc.
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