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Andrew Hawkins signs contract with Browns
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BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1406
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
INbengalfan wrote:
I think it is tampering and we should get #26 as compensation, if it can be proved that they changed the terms of the contract.


lol


Where is anyone getting that the terms of the deal were changed??? The offer was made about a week ago and people jumped to the conclusion that the Bengals would match, then when Hawkins signed the tender later last week, the details came out and people realized it was too rich for the Bengals to match.

Otherwise, I think it was smart for the Bengals not to match as well. Your team's WR depth would've made it too lopsided a deal for a number 3/4 guy (with your two TE's as well to factor in). Smart play by our GM to pick a team like the Bengals with depth at the position and craft a deal that took advantage of the Browns cap space.

Now hopefully you'll give us a chance to pay you back with Hawkins for that sick TD run he made against us last year Wink
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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Location: London, England, UK
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
sparky151 wrote:
LondonBengal wrote:
sparky151 wrote:
We have much better WR depth than Cleveland


Not sure I agree with that. Its much closer than we all think...........


Cleveland has nothing after Gordon. Greg Little is one of the worst starting WRs in the league. Davone Bess, their slot guy last year, has already been cut due to off-field issues.


AJ GREEN V JOSH GORDON
MARVIN JONES V (top draft pick this year ?)
MO SANU V GREG LITTLE
ANDREW HAWKINS V TRAVIS BENJAMIN
RYAN WHALEN V JORDAN COOPER
BRANDON TATE V TORI GURLEY
SANZENBACHER V CHARLES JOHNSON
COBI HAMILTON V CONNER VERNON

I know you can argue about who ranks with who, and who is 'better', but I maintain the WR rosters are closer than you suggest..........



Is their WR depth starting to look like it maybe in our zip-code yet ?

1, AJ GREEN V JOSH GORDON
2, MARVIN JONES V (top draft pick this year ? Watkins maybe ? )
3, MO SANU V GREG LITTLE
4, DANE SANZENBACHER (unsigned) V ANDREW HAWKINS
5. RYAN WHALEN V TRAVIS BENJAMIN
6. BRANDON TATE V JORDAN COOPER

Just suggesting our comparative WR rosters are closer than some think.......
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Hokie


Joined: 01 Apr 2012
Posts: 750
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:


Is their WR depth starting to look like it maybe in our zip-code yet ?

1, AJ GREEN V JOSH GORDON
2, MARVIN JONES V (top draft pick this year ? Watkins maybe ? )
3, MO SANU V GREG LITTLE
4, DANE SANZENBACHER (unsigned) V ANDREW HAWKINS
5. RYAN WHALEN V TRAVIS BENJAMIN
6. BRANDON TATE V JORDAN COOPER

Just suggesting our comparative WR rosters are closer than some think.......


If they draft Watkins with their 1st rounder, then yes, the two teams will be much more comparable. I stated in my original post that they weren't comparable at the time, because it looked like the Bengals were going to match (when the contract appeared to be more reasonable). As of now though:

Green > Gordon (Gordon is one misstep away from a prolonged suspension, and most national writers would say Green is the better overall WR)

Jones > ??? (this will obviously change if they draft Watkins)

Sanu > Little (Little is trash, as the vast majority of Browns fans will tell you)

Hawkins > Sanzenbacher (we may or may not make an upgrade for our 4th WR)

Whalen/Tate vs Benjamin/Cooper... who cares?

Gresham/Eifert >= Cameron/Barnidge (at best this is a push for the Browns. They relied on Cameron a much greater deal than the Bengals did Gresham/Eifert, as the Bengals have had better WR options. Replace Gresham with Cameron and there's no way he catches 80 balls, due to the Bengals having better receiving options and not often being behind in their games)

So, the Browns still have nothing resembling a 2nd WR (this could change in the draft however), their best WR is at a much higher risk of getting himself in trouble (and suspended), and they have one receiving option at TE while the Bengals have two. As of today, the Bengals receiving corps is still much deeper.

I have no idea why you're continuing to beat this horse, but whatever floats your boat LB.
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Hokie


Joined: 01 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walter Football on Hawkins to the Browns:

Browns sign WR Andrew Hawkins (4 years, $13.6M; $4M guaranteed); Bengals decline to match
I have to give both teams a grade for this acquisition because the Bengals had the chance to match Cleveland's offer. They rightfully declined, but they're getting a "D" because they foolishly tagged Andrew Hawkins for the bare minimum. They had to have known someone would try to sign him. For about $1 million more, they could have given him a second-round tender, which means Cleveland would've had to surrender a second-round pick to sign Hawkins. There's no way the Browns would have done that, so Cincinnati lost Hawkins because it was being cheap.

The Browns, on the other hand, are overpaying for Hawkins. The 5-foot-7 slot receiver has great speed, but he's an injury-prone, unreliable weapon. He'll have some flashy highlights for Cleveland and will have several strong outings, but it's unlikely that the production will match his price tag. Having said that, I don't hate this move, as the Browns are starved for offensive play-makers beyond Josh Gordon.

Grade for Browns - C
Grade for Bengals - D


I think this is a completely fair grade for both teams. I still think it was an incredibly stupid (and cheap) move to not put a 2nd round tender on Hawkins. It would have only cost around $1 million more, but in typical Bengal fashion, we went cheap. There's no way in hell anyone would have given up a 2nd rounder for Hawkins, and we let him walk for nothing.

As for the Browns, they overpaid for a slot receiver. He's electric in space; the problem is getting him the ball in space.

It was the right move in declining to match the offer, but it should have never came to this. All we needed to do was place a higher tender on him... but oh well. Good luck to Baby Hawk in Cleveland.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
As of today, the Bengals receiving corps is still much deeper. I have no idea why you're continuing to beat this horse, but whatever floats your boat LB.

This thread was about the Browns making a move for Andrew Hawkins. You said their WR corps 'wasn't in the same zip-code' as ours; I thought it was much closer than that. A perfectly reasonable comment to make I'd have thought.

If they get a sniff at Watkins, (and they'd be fools not to take him), that could make our respective rosters much closer. I see them taking another vet FA WR as well pre-draft; certainly making them in the same state as us, if not the same zip-code.

We of course won't find out how deep our rosters truly are for another year.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
Sanu > Little (Little is trash, as the vast majority of Browns fans will tell you)

2013 STATS

SANU, 47 catches/ 455 yards/ 2 TD's
LITTLE. 41 grabs/ 465 yards/ 2 TD's

Much closer than you might think......
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
All we needed to do was place a higher tender on him... but oh well.

Its fine saying that now; but (correct me if I'm wrong) nobody said here at the time we should have tendered him higher when the tender offers were announced......

I don't think anyone saw the Browns coming in hard and high for Hawkins. I suppose the lesson learned here is to realise folks will come looking at your roster when you're successful.......
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
Good luck to Baby Hawk in Cleveland.

No; surely we don't want him to have any luck in Cleveland do we ?
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Hokie


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Hokie wrote:
Sanu > Little (Little is trash, as the vast majority of Browns fans will tell you)

2013 STATS

SANU, 47 catches/ 455 yards/ 2 TD's
LITTLE. 41 grabs/ 465 yards/ 2 TD's

Much closer than you might think......


Stats don't tell the entire story, LB. Cleveland has relied on Little to a much greater extent than Cincinnati has Sanu in recent years, using counting stats like catches and yards really doesn't do much for this discussion. Little's hands are terrible; guy can't catch a cold.

Go ask Cleveland fans what they think of Little if you think I'm exaggerating.
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Hokie


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Hokie wrote:
All we needed to do was place a higher tender on him... but oh well.

Its fine saying that now; but (correct me if I'm wrong) nobody said here at the time we should have tendered him higher when the tender offers were announced......

I don't think anyone saw the Browns coming in hard and high for Hawkins. I suppose the lesson learned here is to realise folks will come looking at your roster when you're successful.......


I said the Bengals should have placed a 2nd round tender on Hawkins a month ago.

How does Jacoby Jones fill two needs? I get that he helps as a returner, but he'd have a hard time beating out the top four on our depth chart. We should bring Hawkins back on a 2nd round tender. He would only be a $2.12 cap hit and no team is going to offer a 2nd rounder for him. We can't offer him an original round tender ($1.389) as he was undrafted and would risk losing him for nothing. Hawkins is an explosive slot receiver who has proven to be a very valuable special teams player, something that often gets overlooked when people are armchair GMing.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=541828&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120

Like I said, it only cost around $1 million extra to give him the 2nd round tender. We lost Hawkins because our front office is cheap and Cleveland took advantage, plain and simple.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
LondonBengal wrote:
Hokie wrote:
Sanu > Little (Little is trash, as the vast majority of Browns fans will tell you)

2013 STATS

SANU, 47 catches/ 455 yards/ 2 TD's
LITTLE. 41 grabs/ 465 yards/ 2 TD's

Much closer than you might think......


Stats don't tell the entire story, LB.


I know they don't.

Earlier, you stated that Clevelands WR's weren't 'in the same zip-code'. If Little is a bad as you suggest, I would be concerned why Sanu's numbers aren't much better.

I just maintain that our respective WR corps are closer than you suggest, that's all........

As usual, we seem to be guilty of overestimating the quality of our roster compared to others, when IMO teams and roster strengths are generally much closer across the league. This may be a reason why we continue to fail in the play-offs, we're not as good as we sometimes think we are; but that's another thread maybe.......
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
LondonBengal wrote:
Hokie wrote:
All we needed to do was place a higher tender on him... but oh well.

Its fine saying that now; but (correct me if I'm wrong) nobody said here at the time we should have tendered him higher when the tender offers were announced......

I don't think anyone saw the Browns coming in hard and high for Hawkins. I suppose the lesson learned here is to realise folks will come looking at your roster when you're successful.......


I said the Bengals should have placed a 2nd round tender on Hawkins a month ago.


Ok, I stand corrected, and apologise.......
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theJ


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Hokie wrote:
All we needed to do was place a higher tender on him... but oh well.

Its fine saying that now; but (correct me if I'm wrong) nobody said here at the time we should have tendered him higher when the tender offers were announced......

I don't think anyone saw the Browns coming in hard and high for Hawkins. I suppose the lesson learned here is to realise folks will come looking at your roster when you're successful.......

I thought i did, but couldn't find any evidence. You'll just have to take my word for it that i asked my phone "why did they do original round?"

Anyway, with the RFA becoming a rare thing, i think every guy should be a 2nd round tender minimum. If they're worth keeping around, that's the only tag that can dissuade other teams from sniffing around. An original round tender just opens the door for trouble since every RFA is an UDFA now.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokie wrote:
Like I said, it only cost around $1 million extra to give him the 2nd round tender. We lost Hawkins because our front office is cheap and Cleveland took advantage, plain and simple.

I agree that Cleveland won that one, but I don't necessarily agree our FO is 'cheap' right now. Maybe they thought someone like Sanzenbacher was more reliable and as effective than Hawk, maybe they knew something about Hawk we didn't and didn't think he was worth the higher tender. We just don't know.

Lets wait and see what contracts they drop on Burfict and Green before we start calling them cheap
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theJ


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Hokie wrote:
LondonBengal wrote:
Hokie wrote:
Sanu > Little (Little is trash, as the vast majority of Browns fans will tell you)

2013 STATS

SANU, 47 catches/ 455 yards/ 2 TD's
LITTLE. 41 grabs/ 465 yards/ 2 TD's

Much closer than you might think......


Stats don't tell the entire story, LB.


I know they don't.

Earlier, you stated that Clevelands WR's weren't 'in the same zip-code'. If Little is a bad as you suggest, I would be concerned why Sanu's numbers aren't much better.

I just maintain that our respective WR corps are closer than you suggest, that's all........

As usual, we seem to be guilty of overestimating the quality of our roster compared to others, when IMO teams and roster strengths are generally much closer across the league. This may be a reason why we continue to fail in the play-offs, we're not as good as we sometimes think we are; but that's another thread maybe.......

Little had 99 targets last year on those 41 catches...41% catch rate.
Sanu had 77 targets last year on his 47 catches...61% catch rate.

And before we blame the QB - AJ Green had a 54% catch rate and Josh Gordon had a 55% catch rate. Hell, even Devone Bess who is going to be out the league soon had a 48% catch rate.

The only guy i could find with a worse catch rate was Santonio Holmes, at 39%.

Greg Little is a terrible football player. I don't know why you're fighting this LB.

Source: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

Where they ranked Little the worst in terms of efficiency with 50+ targets.
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