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Would you make the Trade.
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Would you make the Trade
YES
46%
 46%  [ 7 ]
NO
53%
 53%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 15

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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 14413
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:


Honestly, we aren't a "gamebreaker" away from a super bowl. We are already there; we've had some rotten luck and some poor decisions, but in any of those three games that we have lost the last 3 years, did you look at our team and think that we couldn't win the super bowl? I feel the same way here. We really don't need someone to "put us over the top".


Wow do you and I have different opinions about what management should be doing. My thought is that almost the single most important thing a GM and his staff have to do is assess the team, identify its strengths and weaknesses, determine how and where it needs to get better, and then put a plan in place to make that happen. I would not want a GM who looked at our frustrating season ending losses the last three years and chalked it up to "rotten luck" and then hoped that if we just keep trying sooner or later we'll win it all. I want a management team that will look at our near league-bottom passing game, and our inability to connect for a TD on multiple tries two years ago, or our forcing a first down pass this year bacause we're willing to settle for throwing against tight coverage even when our receiver is well covered - and then figure out how to improve the team so that we don't have the same kind of end to the season next year. Watkins might or might not be that answer, but thinking that "we're there already" and the only thing that kept us from winning it all was "rotten luck" should earn a GM a quick boot out the door.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sbrown wrote:
Make no mistake, sammy will be a top 10 wr in this league and that is something we need. If it took 2 first rounders I would do it. We havent had any of our recent first rounders dominate and we havent had an elite we drafted either. Sammy is every bit the prospect Dez bryant was and I had dez rated higher than julio. But Dez and sammy and similar size but sammy is much quicker and every bit the leaper.

We cant say what our offense is or isnt without the knowing what it would look like with a wr of sammy or (julio or dez bryants) talents. We dont have that right now. But considering our passing attack was pathetic in the '11 and '13 NFCCG and didnt have enough weapons in the SB, adding 2 late first round picks like aj jenkins doesnt change that.


+1. When it comes to WRs and the passing game you know your stuff!
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Forge


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Forge wrote:


Honestly, we aren't a "gamebreaker" away from a super bowl. We are already there; we've had some rotten luck and some poor decisions, but in any of those three games that we have lost the last 3 years, did you look at our team and think that we couldn't win the super bowl? I feel the same way here. We really don't need someone to "put us over the top".


Wow do you and I have different opinions about what management should be doing. My thought is that almost the single most important thing a GM and his staff have to do is assess the team, identify its strengths and weaknesses, determine how and where it needs to get better, and then put a plan in place to make that happen. I would not want a GM who looked at our frustrating season ending losses the last three years and chalked it up to "rotten luck" and then hoped that if we just keep trying sooner or later we'll win it all. I want a management team that will look at our near league-bottom passing game, and our inability to connect for a TD on multiple tries two years ago, or our forcing a first down pass this year bacause we're willing to settle for throwing against tight coverage even when our receiver is well covered - and then figure out how to improve the team so that we don't have the same kind of end to the season next year. Watkins might or might not be that answer, but thinking that "we're there already" and the only thing that kept us from winning it all was "rotten luck" should earn a GM a quick boot out the door.


Wow, what a misrepresentation of a post. Where did I say that management shouldn't be looking to improve the team and address strengths and weaknesses? I'll wait while you find it.....oh, you can't find it, because I didn't say that. I'm saying that what Watkins provides, how I believe that we will use him in our offensive scheme, he's not worth giving up that much overall talent, especially given the cap friendly deals that rookies are now on. I've said in multiple posts that Evans is actually a better fit for us than Watkins and he'd be the guy I would have traded up for in the teens. Why? Great red zone target and viable vertical threat. What do those two areas target? Our weaknesses in the passing game...I'd advocated drafting guys who are nothing but return specialists because to our team it's worth it.

How much better do you think that we can get than the league? A quarterback is the only position where that significant of a jump can take place, and that's what I meant by "we are not a gamebreaker away from the super bowl". The point of my post is that we can't draft a guy like Watkins and expect him to suddenly make us so much better than everyone in the league...we are already a viable superbowl candidate, have one of, if not the best roster in the league, and should be fighting for it again this year. Does Watkins significantly improve that status? Not particularly, especially considering you're talking about a guy who may see what, 5 touches a game? Not only that, but it's not like the strength of Watkins' game is in the red zone particularly.

If you think that improving the overall talent base of the team from top to bottom isn't improving your team, I don't know what to tell you. Its this kind of strategy that allows us to let guys like Brown walk and replace him with in house options, or endure injuries to major contributors without our season imploding. How much of an impact do you think Watkins is going to have? More than 4 highly rated prospects? OP is talking about giving up 2 1's and 2 2's I believe. How many wide receivers put a team over the top that you can think of? Randy Moss on the Patriots? How's that Julio Jones deal working out for Atlanta? Watkins isn't Moss and our offensive strategy certainly isn't the same as the Patriots was.
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sbrown


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Forge wrote:


Honestly, we aren't a "gamebreaker" away from a super bowl. We are already there; we've had some rotten luck and some poor decisions, but in any of those three games that we have lost the last 3 years, did you look at our team and think that we couldn't win the super bowl? I feel the same way here. We really don't need someone to "put us over the top".


Wow do you and I have different opinions about what management should be doing. My thought is that almost the single most important thing a GM and his staff have to do is assess the team, identify its strengths and weaknesses, determine how and where it needs to get better, and then put a plan in place to make that happen. I would not want a GM who looked at our frustrating season ending losses the last three years and chalked it up to "rotten luck" and then hoped that if we just keep trying sooner or later we'll win it all. I want a management team that will look at our near league-bottom passing game, and our inability to connect for a TD on multiple tries two years ago, or our forcing a first down pass this year bacause we're willing to settle for throwing against tight coverage even when our receiver is well covered - and then figure out how to improve the team so that we don't have the same kind of end to the season next year. Watkins might or might not be that answer, but thinking that "we're there already" and the only thing that kept us from winning it all was "rotten luck" should earn a GM a quick boot out the door.


Since there is no "like" button i'll do a +1
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Forge


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, just a couple of things:

Wide receivers drafted in the top 10 since 2000:

David Terrell (Bears, No. 8, 2001), Koren Robinson (Seahawks, No. 9, 2001), Charles Rogers (Lions, No. 2, 2003), Andre Johnson (Texans, No. 3, 2003), Larry Fitzgerald (Cardinals, No. 3, 2004), Roy Williams (Lions, No. 7, 2004), Reggie Williams (Jaguars, No. 9, 2004), Braylon Edwards (Browns, No. 3, 2005), Troy Williamson (Vikings, No. 7, 2005), Mike Williams (Lions, No. 10, 2005), Calvin Johnson (Lions, No. 2, 2007), Ted Ginn Jr. (Dolphins, No. 9, 2007), Darrius Heyward-Bey (Raiders, No. 9, 2009), Michael Crabtree (49ers, No. 10, 2009), Julio Jones (Falcons, No. 6, 2011), AJ Green (Bengals, No. 3, 2011), Justin Blackmon (Jaguars, No. 5, 2012).

I may have missed one or two, but notice anything about that list? More busts than hits. We all love Watkins, and he has a huge ceiling and I do believe he'll be a stud in this league, but the same was thought of a lot of those other guys; that they were can't miss prospects. Wide receiver is a highly shaky position to transition to in the NFL, and even top 10 talents aren't immune. Notice anything else? Besides the crazy run to the super bowl by the cardinals, and our own 49ers with crabs 2 years ago, how many super bowls do we have there? Terrell may have been on that Bears team that lost to the Colts, but I can't remember. Better yet, how many playoff appearances and wins? The best part of that number? It buoyed by teams winning playoff game despite drafting that player, not because of it. How much of an impact did Reggie Williams have? David Terrell? Troy Williamson? Their teams won playoff games with them.

The last time we made this move to draft a wide receiver to "put us over the top"? JJ Stokes. He didn't quite do that.

One of the picks we gave up in that ransom was Ray Lewis. I don't mind trading up to get better prospects; I encourage it. Especially when we have this many picks. However, I don't like the idea of giving up a ransom for a player that is not guaranteed to put us "over the top" of anything, at a position that has a very shaky history of boom/bust and team impact.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sbrown wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Forge wrote:


Honestly, we aren't a "gamebreaker" away from a super bowl. We are already there; we've had some rotten luck and some poor decisions, but in any of those three games that we have lost the last 3 years, did you look at our team and think that we couldn't win the super bowl? I feel the same way here. We really don't need someone to "put us over the top".


Wow do you and I have different opinions about what management should be doing. My thought is that almost the single most important thing a GM and his staff have to do is assess the team, identify its strengths and weaknesses, determine how and where it needs to get better, and then put a plan in place to make that happen. I would not want a GM who looked at our frustrating season ending losses the last three years and chalked it up to "rotten luck" and then hoped that if we just keep trying sooner or later we'll win it all. I want a management team that will look at our near league-bottom passing game, and our inability to connect for a TD on multiple tries two years ago, or our forcing a first down pass this year bacause we're willing to settle for throwing against tight coverage even when our receiver is well covered - and then figure out how to improve the team so that we don't have the same kind of end to the season next year. Watkins might or might not be that answer, but thinking that "we're there already" and the only thing that kept us from winning it all was "rotten luck" should earn a GM a quick boot out the door.


Since there is no "like" button i'll do a +1


Wow, I Didn't think what I said was all that confusing. Have no idea how it's being misinterpreted so badly. I guess that's on me.
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got what you meant and I agree with you. BUT, adding a few more pieces will only increase our chances of winning it all. Doesn't necessarily mean we need to trade up for Watkins though. If one of our rookies has an impact like Reid did this year for us and some of our redshirt guys step up, that could very well be enough to get it done.
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Ataal


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm in the minority here, or maybe it's been so long since we've been an offensive powerhouse that I've lowered my standards, but....

With Boldin, Crabtree, Davis, etc... I think we're sitting pretty good right now. Yes, I would like a deep threat at WR to stretch the field out a bit more, but we've been to at least the NFC championship game three years in a row. I don't want to give up much to find one, especially an unproven one in the draft. I just hope they scout someone with height/speed and let's work on their hands and route running. Boldin and Davis could mentor a guy like that.

But, let's be honest, here. Unless our offensive play calling changes, it might be a moot point anyway. I keep wanting to convince myself that we don't run 2+ WR sets because we don't have the talent. Well, our talent has improved by a ridiculous amount since 2011 and I'm just not seeing the playcall curve going up with the talent curve. Is that just who we are? Is it still a talent issue? Is it Colin's inability, at times, to look for multiple reads? Something else?

Thus, if you couldn't tell, I'm not a big fan of this suggested trade.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Forge wrote:


Honestly, we aren't a "gamebreaker" away from a super bowl. We are already there; we've had some rotten luck and some poor decisions, but in any of those three games that we have lost the last 3 years, did you look at our team and think that we couldn't win the super bowl? I feel the same way here. We really don't need someone to "put us over the top".


Wow do you and I have different opinions about what management should be doing. My thought is that almost the single most important thing a GM and his staff have to do is assess the team, identify its strengths and weaknesses, determine how and where it needs to get better, and then put a plan in place to make that happen. I would not want a GM who looked at our frustrating season ending losses the last three years and chalked it up to "rotten luck" and then hoped that if we just keep trying sooner or later we'll win it all. I want a management team that will look at our near league-bottom passing game, and our inability to connect for a TD on multiple tries two years ago, or our forcing a first down pass this year bacause we're willing to settle for throwing against tight coverage even when our receiver is well covered - and then figure out how to improve the team so that we don't have the same kind of end to the season next year. Watkins might or might not be that answer, but thinking that "we're there already" and the only thing that kept us from winning it all was "rotten luck" should earn a GM a quick boot out the door.


Wow, what a misrepresentation of a post. Where did I say that management shouldn't be looking to improve the team and address strengths and weaknesses? I'll wait while you find it.....oh, you can't find it, because I didn't say that. I'm saying that what Watkins provides, how I believe that we will use him in our offensive scheme, he's not worth giving up that much overall talent, especially given the cap friendly deals that rookies are now on. I've said in multiple posts that Evans is actually a better fit for us than Watkins and he'd be the guy I would have traded up for in the teens. Why? Great red zone target and viable vertical threat. What do those two areas target? Our weaknesses in the passing game...I'd advocated drafting guys who are nothing but return specialists because to our team it's worth it.

How much better do you think that we can get than the league? A quarterback is the only position where that significant of a jump can take place, and that's what I meant by "we are not a gamebreaker away from the super bowl". The point of my post is that we can't draft a guy like Watkins and expect him to suddenly make us so much better than everyone in the league...we are already a viable superbowl candidate, have one of, if not the best roster in the league, and should be fighting for it again this year. Does Watkins significantly improve that status? Not particularly, especially considering you're talking about a guy who may see what, 5 touches a game? Not only that, but it's not like the strength of Watkins' game is in the red zone particularly.

If you think that improving the overall talent base of the team from top to bottom isn't improving your team, I don't know what to tell you. Its this kind of strategy that allows us to let guys like Brown walk and replace him with in house options, or endure injuries to major contributors without our season imploding. How much of an impact do you think Watkins is going to have? More than 4 highly rated prospects? OP is talking about giving up 2 1's and 2 2's I believe. How many wide receivers put a team over the top that you can think of? Randy Moss on the Patriots? How's that Julio Jones deal working out for Atlanta? Watkins isn't Moss and our offensive strategy certainly isn't the same as the Patriots was.


I was talking about the impression you give, in fact specifically said, that we are there already and it was rotten luck that kept us from winning it all and we don't need a great player to help make us a better team (put usover the top). We are not there already. We're close. But we've lost three years in a row. That's because we don't have the right players and/or right approach, not because of rotten luck. The whole point to the discussion comes down to whether a bunch of "bodies" is better than a couple of "stars". When you find yourself with a really strong roster, but still not winning it all there are two things you could do. Get a bunch more good players none of whom might actually beat out any of the guys you already have, and thus not help you get any better. Or, you could go out an do your darndest to improve at positions or aspects of the game where you know there is room for improvement - and that might mean trading a bunch of those guys who won't contribute for one or two guys that might help a lot.

None of us can assess whether Watkins is that good, but I really disagree with the notion that one or two really good players would not be better for us than an whole bunch of so-so guys who might not even dress on game day let alone actually help us win games.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a big difference between picks taken in the first two rounds, three or four of which were suggested initially, and a "bunch of 'bodies'", as you put it. If it was a question of unloading a bunch of third, fourth, fifth rounders, we'd all say "hell yeah" in a second. If we could move up in the teens for Mike Evans for thirds and fourths, I'd be all for it, no question. But we're talking about 3-4 premium picks for one player, here. If that one player was Calvin Johnson, I don't think anyone would even complain. But while being a great prospect, athletically gifted and talented, he doesn't really have elite anything. Great speed, not amazing speed. Great hands, not amazing hands. I'm not sure we can even call his routes great at this point, but no reason to question whether he can pull it off in the NFL. Maybe I'd qualify his acceleration as elite, yes. But as far as everything is concerned, he's not an elite prospect, to me. Great prospect, yes. Great potential, great speed, very exciting. But worth 3 or 4 prospects all by himself? No. That's perhaps 3 or 4 potential eventual starters, we're talking about, here. Potential cheap starters down the road that will allow us to retain some of our guys.
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Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Forge wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Forge wrote:


Honestly, we aren't a "gamebreaker" away from a super bowl. We are already there; we've had some rotten luck and some poor decisions, but in any of those three games that we have lost the last 3 years, did you look at our team and think that we couldn't win the super bowl? I feel the same way here. We really don't need someone to "put us over the top".


Wow do you and I have different opinions about what management should be doing. My thought is that almost the single most important thing a GM and his staff have to do is assess the team, identify its strengths and weaknesses, determine how and where it needs to get better, and then put a plan in place to make that happen. I would not want a GM who looked at our frustrating season ending losses the last three years and chalked it up to "rotten luck" and then hoped that if we just keep trying sooner or later we'll win it all. I want a management team that will look at our near league-bottom passing game, and our inability to connect for a TD on multiple tries two years ago, or our forcing a first down pass this year bacause we're willing to settle for throwing against tight coverage even when our receiver is well covered - and then figure out how to improve the team so that we don't have the same kind of end to the season next year. Watkins might or might not be that answer, but thinking that "we're there already" and the only thing that kept us from winning it all was "rotten luck" should earn a GM a quick boot out the door.


Wow, what a misrepresentation of a post. Where did I say that management shouldn't be looking to improve the team and address strengths and weaknesses? I'll wait while you find it.....oh, you can't find it, because I didn't say that. I'm saying that what Watkins provides, how I believe that we will use him in our offensive scheme, he's not worth giving up that much overall talent, especially given the cap friendly deals that rookies are now on. I've said in multiple posts that Evans is actually a better fit for us than Watkins and he'd be the guy I would have traded up for in the teens. Why? Great red zone target and viable vertical threat. What do those two areas target? Our weaknesses in the passing game...I'd advocated drafting guys who are nothing but return specialists because to our team it's worth it.

How much better do you think that we can get than the league? A quarterback is the only position where that significant of a jump can take place, and that's what I meant by "we are not a gamebreaker away from the super bowl". The point of my post is that we can't draft a guy like Watkins and expect him to suddenly make us so much better than everyone in the league...we are already a viable superbowl candidate, have one of, if not the best roster in the league, and should be fighting for it again this year. Does Watkins significantly improve that status? Not particularly, especially considering you're talking about a guy who may see what, 5 touches a game? Not only that, but it's not like the strength of Watkins' game is in the red zone particularly.

If you think that improving the overall talent base of the team from top to bottom isn't improving your team, I don't know what to tell you. Its this kind of strategy that allows us to let guys like Brown walk and replace him with in house options, or endure injuries to major contributors without our season imploding. How much of an impact do you think Watkins is going to have? More than 4 highly rated prospects? OP is talking about giving up 2 1's and 2 2's I believe. How many wide receivers put a team over the top that you can think of? Randy Moss on the Patriots? How's that Julio Jones deal working out for Atlanta? Watkins isn't Moss and our offensive strategy certainly isn't the same as the Patriots was.


I was talking about the impression you give, in fact specifically said, that we are there already and it was rotten luck that kept us from winning it all and we don't need a great player to help make us a better team (put usover the top). We are not there already. We're close. But we've lost three years in a row. That's because we don't have the right players and/or right approach, not because of rotten luck. The whole point to the discussion comes down to whether a bunch of "bodies" is better than a couple of "stars". When you find yourself with a really strong roster, but still not winning it all there are two things you could do. Get a bunch more good players none of whom might actually beat out any of the guys you already have, and thus not help you get any better. Or, you could go out an do your darndest to improve at positions or aspects of the game where you know there is room for improvement - and that might mean trading a bunch of those guys who won't contribute for one or two guys that might help a lot.

None of us can assess whether Watkins is that good, but I really disagree with the notion that one or two really good players would not be better for us than an whole bunch of so-so guys who might not even dress on game day let alone actually help us win games.


Let's see...where to begin here. I guess we will start at the top.

First off, I find it funny that your focus has been on the "rotten luck" part, while conveniently ignoring the second part of what I said to push your argument. My actual phrasing was, "rotten luck and some poor decisions". So that throws the "right approach" argument you just tried to use right out the window, since poor approach would coincide bad decisions. Secondly, yes, there has been some rotten luck. It was rotten luck that Ted Ginn was injured (and bad decisions) to have Kyle Williams back there. It was bad luck that the refs blew the whistle dead on the Bradshaw fumble. It was bad luck (and officiating), that didn't get Cary Williams thrown out of the super bowl for pushing an official. It was bad luck that the ball bounced in a funky way that our defense had to fall on the football instead of running that Lynch fumble all the way back for a touchdown, and bad decisions (playcalling) by Kaep and coaching staff on the final interception.

Next, I don't know what to say about the fact that you're saying that "we are not there". I don't know how you can say that. Do we have arguably the best roster in football? Yes. Are we just as good as any team in the NFL? Yes. Can we beat anyone on any given day? Yes. Flip side of the coin, can anyone beat us on any given day? Yes, absolutely. That's the parity of football. Teams get banged up and injured, play poorly because they are tired, etc. Are we going to be a super bowl favorite this year? Yes. What you are searching for doesn't exist in todays NFL. I get the feeling from your arguments that you are just wanting to push us way over the top of everyone else, and that's just not the way the NFL operates any more. The days of the 90's 49ers/Cowboys are over. This is why there is so much turnover on a year to year basis on the playoffs. We are a superbowl favorite with a stacked roster and one of the best teams in the NFL. I never said we couldn't find someone to help out and improve the team; look at Reid last year. What I basically said is that no prospect, including Watkins, is going to be some magic elixer that suddenly makes us so much better than everyone else. We add Watkins, can we still get beat by Seattle for the division? Yup. Can we still get ousted in the wildcard round by an angry Packers teams? Yup.

Thirdly, we aren't talking about "a bunch of bodies", as you are erroneously saying to advance your opinion. We are talking about premium draft picks. As Rudy said, if we were talking about a bunch of third and fourth and fifth round guys, we would all be for it. We are talking about first and second round guys who have very good, to good, to above average chances of being starters and solid contributors. You need those type of guys, even if they are equal to what you already have for two important reasons; roster depth and salary cap flexibility. This is what allows us to let Goldson walk and get the same production for cheaper. Or survive through an injury (or rehab) with guys like Aldon and Bowman. How can you say with any certainty, that we would play a bunch of sudden 3 wide receiver sets with Watkins if we were to re-sign Boldin, and even if we did, having watched Kaep play and how reliant he is on certain guys, would you be confident in his throwing the ball to Watkins on a consistent basis?

I also don't know why you keep trying to insinuate that I'm suggesting we can't or won't improve our roster. Honestly, I could make an argument, depending on how free agency shakes out, that drafting someone like Fuller or Ward would have a greater positive impact on the team than a (clearly) better prospect like Watkins. For example, let's say Watkins is a 8 on a 1-10 scale. But Crabtree is an 8.75 and Boldin is a 7.5. But let's say Fuller is a 7, and Brock, who right now is our starter, is a 5. Which improves the team more? Yes, its a childish, "madden-esque" argument, but the summation is this: The best prospect doesn't always guarantee the best improvement for your team. You can make the same argument in free agency. Our team was much improved through strategic free agent signings rather than big name signings of better players. Dawson, Skuta, Osgood all improved our team just as much as some of the better football players on the free agent market may have.

Finally, lets take a look at one other thing; not just the top 10 wide receivers who have crashed and burned. New England. Pittsburgh. Baltimore. Green Bay. New Orleans. Seattle. Indianapolis. These teams have been perennial playoff contenders for the last 10 years or so, yes? Super bowl wins. Some teams multiple wins. Over the course of that decade or so, they have all had very talented rosters at one point or another. You could argue at certain times, one of them would have had the best roster in the NFL. How many huge trade ups are you seeing them make in the draft? Sure, they all have had off years at one time or another, but for the most part, they have been there year in and year out.

Now, Atlanta did it...and they have no depth and had no way to make it through the injuries they suffered. Both lines are shot. Their defense is not, and hasn't been particularly good the last few years. Washington gave up a bunch of picks. That's not exactly a talented roster top to bottom now.
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niner4ever


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about getting deeper. But as you stated we have one of the best rosters around. We have a lot of depth as is. Specially with players from last years draft that have yet to play. By no means am I saying he is or is going to be with this next statement. We traded up for a receiver who many thought was very good in aspects of his game but nothing elite. We traded up granted not as far but we went after him. That player was The G.O.A.T. Jerry Rice. Not saying Watkins can even hold his jock. Just saying sometimes gambling pays off. We would also have 8 more picks to add depth. The only position I believe they can't evaluate very good and find quality players is WR. Whether or not they trade for him i will be ok. Just thought it would be a good friendly debate.
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Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 7184
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

niner4ever wrote:
I agree about getting deeper. But as you stated we have one of the best rosters around. We have a lot of depth as is. Specially with players from last years draft that have yet to play. By no means am I saying he is or is going to be with this next statement. We traded up for a receiver who many thought was very good in aspects of his game but nothing elite. We traded up granted not as far but we went after him. That player was The G.O.A.T. Jerry Rice. Not saying Watkins can even hold his jock. Just saying sometimes gambling pays off. We would also have 8 more picks to add depth. The only position I believe they can't evaluate very good and find quality players is WR. Whether or not they trade for him i will be ok. Just thought it would be a good friendly debate.


I've advocated trading up multiple times this off season. That is not an issue. Pre combine I clamored for potentially moving into the 16 or 17 range to get Evans (unlikely he'd get past 15 at the latest now, and I feel he'll be an easy top 13). But there's a difference between making that kind of move and breaking the draft bank to get way up there.
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sbrown


Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 9312
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
niner4ever wrote:
I agree about getting deeper. But as you stated we have one of the best rosters around. We have a lot of depth as is. Specially with players from last years draft that have yet to play. By no means am I saying he is or is going to be with this next statement. We traded up for a receiver who many thought was very good in aspects of his game but nothing elite. We traded up granted not as far but we went after him. That player was The G.O.A.T. Jerry Rice. Not saying Watkins can even hold his jock. Just saying sometimes gambling pays off. We would also have 8 more picks to add depth. The only position I believe they can't evaluate very good and find quality players is WR. Whether or not they trade for him i will be ok. Just thought it would be a good friendly debate.


I've advocated trading up multiple times this off season. That is not an issue. Pre combine I clamored for potentially moving into the 16 or 17 range to get Evans (unlikely he'd get past 15 at the latest now, and I feel he'll be an easy top 13). But there's a difference between making that kind of move and breaking the draft bank to get way up there.

Forge I am not against what you are saying. Essentially you are saying what we are saying. I "like" our wr core but we dont have an explosive wideout. I am fond of Evans too. I dont see the star potential in him however. I see more dwayne bowe. Taking a closer look Im liking odell beckham more. He's a very good route runner and can be explosive like a victor cruz
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oldman9er


Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 40144
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
There's a big difference between picks taken in the first two rounds, three or four of which were suggested initially, and a "bunch of 'bodies'", as you put it. If it was a question of unloading a bunch of third, fourth, fifth rounders, we'd all say "hell yeah" in a second. If we could move up in the teens for Mike Evans for thirds and fourths, I'd be all for it, no question. But we're talking about 3-4 premium picks for one player, here. If that one player was Calvin Johnson, I don't think anyone would even complain. But while being a great prospect, athletically gifted and talented, he doesn't really have elite anything. Great speed, not amazing speed. Great hands, not amazing hands. I'm not sure we can even call his routes great at this point, but no reason to question whether he can pull it off in the NFL. Maybe I'd qualify his acceleration as elite, yes. But as far as everything is concerned, he's not an elite prospect, to me. Great prospect, yes. Great potential, great speed, very exciting. But worth 3 or 4 prospects all by himself? No. That's perhaps 3 or 4 potential eventual starters, we're talking about, here. Potential cheap starters down the road that will allow us to retain some of our guys.


Great post. I have been outspoken in the past about giving up a lot for a prospect... one being Calvin Johnson himself... so it isn't a matter of coveting "my" draft picks too much. If I felt Watkins was Calvin Johnson... sure, I am in.. but I don't. I also don't feel like we are a team that is set in all positions but WR. We can afford to make aggressive moves... but giving up as much as it would take to be able to select Watkins? I'd pass on that. This looks like a high quality draft in the first 3 rounds. It's also loaded with other WRs that can help us. We could load up on talent at the CBx2, S, WR, QB2, and DE positions.
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