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NFL releases the Ted Wells Report
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GOGRIESE


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another Incognito twitter rant Laughing
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yankee0724


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Quote:
In mid-November 2013, we interviewed every player who was on the Dolphins’ roster, all of the Dolphins’ coaching staff and key front office personnel. We also interviewed a number of former Dolphins, some of Jonathan Martin’s teammates from Stanford, two of Martin’s coaches from Stanford, Martin’s parents and his agent.


Seriously? Martin's college teammates. Martin's college coaches. Martins parents and agent! None of those for Incognito, Pouncey, or Jerry. How is that not biased?


For the scope of the investigation, it was not necessary to do the same for Incognito, Pouncey, or Jerry.

Use your critical thinking skills to figure out why.
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketchup wrote:
BlaqOptic wrote:
This forum is adorable... 2 months ago this forum was condeming Incognito and wishing he'd never play another down of football. Then last week when the texts were released everyone switched sides and said they hoped Marin never plays football again. Now everyone has switched back... Rolling Eyes

Stop jumping so far and let these men and their respective parties handle their issue.
People aren't allowed to form opinions on the information they have at the time? With new information comes different view points and can effect someone's opinion on the matter. Don't see the problem with that. If we waited to discuss something until it was 100% fact, the forum would be very uninteresting.


We discuss everything on this forum from football to other stuff... People waiting to pounce on the latest info to wish wash and flip flop back and forward is ridiculous.
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Kutless


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When richie incognitio is your locker room leader you KNOW youve got issues
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Sacks98


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow what a despicable person i was starting to think the incident with Martin was blown out of proportion once there back and forth came out but not now.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Quote:
In mid-November 2013, we interviewed every player who was on the Dolphins’ roster, all of the Dolphins’ coaching staff and key front office personnel. We also interviewed a number of former Dolphins, some of Jonathan Martin’s teammates from Stanford, two of Martin’s coaches from Stanford, Martin’s parents and his agent.


Seriously? Martin's college teammates. Martin's college coaches. Martins parents and agent! None of those for Incognito, Pouncey, or Jerry. How is that not biased?
Because they were interviewed to find the extent to which Martin's depression has troubled him and how he assimilates into normal locker rooms. They weren't interviewed to be character witnesses.
Except thats how they are presented in the text.

No matter how "unbiased" you want someone to be, they never will be. Especially when one man had as much influence over an entire investigation/report as Wells clearly does.

Just like how obvious the bias' of members of this forum are.

The majortiy of posters who have spent a considerable amount of time in higher lever sports or fraternity atmospheres completely understand what is going on, mostly because many have been around or apart of this exact situation (likely not to this extent, but similar none the less);
Someone is brought in, who doesn't quite fit in, but really wants to try to. And while they think they can hang, and blow off the jabs & taunts, it just isn't going to work out. And where the problem comes in is no one addresses the issue till it has gone so far down the rabbit hole that there is no going back. And when we come out the other side the person who now believes they are the 'victim' often sensationalizes what they have been apart of often now believing that it was all an attack on them. Then claim their participation in acts that they have committed were as a defense mechanism, trying to absolve themselves of their actions that they are now embarrassed/ashamed of. Or more likely because if they admitted to voluntarily joining the shenanigans then they would completely validate the other side while incriminating themselves. While the side who is looked at as the aggressor has no clue why they are being painted as the villain, because they we being perpetuated by all the parties involved, as well as other peripheral parties. They feel completely betrayed by a guy who they believe they have reached out and taken into the group. They are just treating them as "one of their own" and see nothing wrong with it because "their own" all enjoy this type of relationship as well (i.e. Snitches get Stitches/Blood in, blood out).

And the other side of the coin is the group who likely believe that either themselves or someone close to them (kid/sibling) was "bullied" and now look for it everywhere they can. The group that gives ideas like this site credence, mostly because them and their group weren't accepted by the larger perceived "popular crowd", all while their just as ethnocentric circle of friends had the same type of remarks and thoughts toward everyone who was not them. These groups have bred this "everyone gets a trophy" society that is slowly spreading and is effecting the core of this fundamental difference in ideals. The fact that "bullying" is now based upon an "imbalance of power" shows where the problem with this discussion begins. What one side wants to call bullying is the social norm for the other.


Before you start throwing things like "this type of behavior is unacceptable and inexcusable" think for a minute. Tell me you would like a court reporter taking down every word of you out with your buddies for drinks or at dinner, on the bench of your rec-league sport, or more correlatively on a guys getaway weekend (likely a bachelor party). Then were you not only forced to face all the things you id/said, but you have to be accountable for them in front of the entire world. Seriously, go get your phone or computer right now, read trough your group texts or chats or emails with your close friends, and tell me you are proud of what is in there. Would you read them aloud to a room full of strangers? How about your boss? Your in-laws? How about your mother? Because that is as close to the comardery as you will ever have like there is in an NFL locker room.


Glass Houses, this thread is full of them
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Quote:
In mid-November 2013, we interviewed every player who was on the Dolphins’ roster, all of the Dolphins’ coaching staff and key front office personnel. We also interviewed a number of former Dolphins, some of Jonathan Martin’s teammates from Stanford, two of Martin’s coaches from Stanford, Martin’s parents and his agent.


Seriously? Martin's college teammates. Martin's college coaches. Martins parents and agent! None of those for Incognito, Pouncey, or Jerry. How is that not biased?
Because they were interviewed to find the extent to which Martin's depression has troubled him and how he assimilates into normal locker rooms. They weren't interviewed to be character witnesses.
Except thats how they are presented in the text.

No matter how "unbiased" you want someone to be, they never will be. Especially when one man had as much influence over an entire investigation/report as Wells clearly does.

Just like how obvious the bias' of members of this forum are.

The majortiy of posters who have spent a considerable amount of time in higher lever sports or fraternity atmospheres completely understand what is going on, mostly because many have been around or apart of this exact situation (likely not to this extent, but similar none the less);
Someone is brought in, who doesn't quite fit in, but really wants to try to. And while they think they can hang, and blow off the jabs & taunts, it just isn't going to work out. And where the problem comes in is no one addresses the issue till it has gone so far down the rabbit hole that there is no going back. And when we come out the other side the person who now believes they are the 'victim' often sensationalizes what they have been apart of often now believing that it was all an attack on them. Then claim their participation in acts that they have committed were as a defense mechanism, trying to absolve themselves of their actions that they are now embarrassed/ashamed of. Or more likely because if they admitted to voluntarily joining the shenanigans then they would completely validate the other side while incriminating themselves. While the side who is looked at as the aggressor has no clue why they are being painted as the villain, because they we being perpetuated by all the parties involved, as well as other peripheral parties. They feel completely betrayed by a guy who they believe they have reached out and taken into the group. They are just treating them as "one of their own" and see nothing wrong with it because "their own" all enjoy this type of relationship as well (i.e. Snitches get Stitches/Blood in, blood out).

And the other side of the coin is the group who likely believe that either themselves or someone close to them (kid/sibling) was "bullied" and now look for it everywhere they can. The group that gives ideas like this site credence, mostly because them and their group weren't accepted by the larger perceived "popular crowd", all while their just as ethnocentric circle of friends had the same type of remarks and thoughts toward everyone who was not them. These groups have bred this "everyone gets a trophy" society that is slowly spreading and is effecting the core of this fundamental difference in ideals. The fact that "bullying" is now based upon an "imbalance of power" shows where the problem with this discussion begins. What one side wants to call bullying is the social norm for the other.


Before you start throwing things like "this type of behavior is unacceptable and inexcusable" think for a minute. Tell me you would like a court reporter taking down every word of you out with your buddies for drinks or at dinner, on the bench of your rec-league sport, or more correlatively on a guys getaway weekend (likely a bachelor party). Then were you not only forced to face all the things you id/said, but you have to be accountable for them in front of the entire world. Seriously, go get your phone or computer right now, read trough your group texts or chats or emails with your close friends, and tell me you are proud of what is in there. Would you read them aloud to a room full of strangers? How about your boss? Your in-laws? How about your mother? Because that is as close to the comardery as you will ever have like there is in an NFL locker room.


Glass Houses, this thread is full of them


I think they(Incognito and co.) took it too far. But I think there's definitely some truth in what you're saying. Especially with the bold.

If people recorded all my conversations over a period of time, I'm sure they could take comments out of context to make it seem like I'm racist or an awful person.
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utley4568


Joined: 22 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Quote:
In mid-November 2013, we interviewed every player who was on the Dolphins’ roster, all of the Dolphins’ coaching staff and key front office personnel. We also interviewed a number of former Dolphins, some of Jonathan Martin’s teammates from Stanford, two of Martin’s coaches from Stanford, Martin’s parents and his agent.


Seriously? Martin's college teammates. Martin's college coaches. Martins parents and agent! None of those for Incognito, Pouncey, or Jerry. How is that not biased?
Because they were interviewed to find the extent to which Martin's depression has troubled him and how he assimilates into normal locker rooms. They weren't interviewed to be character witnesses.
Except thats how they are presented in the text.

No matter how "unbiased" you want someone to be, they never will be. Especially when one man had as much influence over an entire investigation/report as Wells clearly does.

Just like how obvious the bias' of members of this forum are.

The majortiy of posters who have spent a considerable amount of time in higher lever sports or fraternity atmospheres completely understand what is going on, mostly because many have been around or apart of this exact situation (likely not to this extent, but similar none the less);
Someone is brought in, who doesn't quite fit in, but really wants to try to. And while they think they can hang, and blow off the jabs & taunts, it just isn't going to work out. And where the problem comes in is no one addresses the issue till it has gone so far down the rabbit hole that there is no going back. And when we come out the other side the person who now believes they are the 'victim' often sensationalizes what they have been apart of often now believing that it was all an attack on them. Then claim their participation in acts that they have committed were as a defense mechanism, trying to absolve themselves of their actions that they are now embarrassed/ashamed of. Or more likely because if they admitted to voluntarily joining the shenanigans then they would completely validate the other side while incriminating themselves. While the side who is looked at as the aggressor has no clue why they are being painted as the villain, because they we being perpetuated by all the parties involved, as well as other peripheral parties. They feel completely betrayed by a guy who they believe they have reached out and taken into the group. They are just treating them as "one of their own" and see nothing wrong with it because "their own" all enjoy this type of relationship as well (i.e. Snitches get Stitches/Blood in, blood out).

And the other side of the coin is the group who likely believe that either themselves or someone close to them (kid/sibling) was "bullied" and now look for it everywhere they can. The group that gives ideas like this site credence, mostly because them and their group weren't accepted by the larger perceived "popular crowd", all while their just as ethnocentric circle of friends had the same type of remarks and thoughts toward everyone who was not them. These groups have bred this "everyone gets a trophy" society that is slowly spreading and is effecting the core of this fundamental difference in ideals. The fact that "bullying" is now based upon an "imbalance of power" shows where the problem with this discussion begins. What one side wants to call bullying is the social norm for the other.


Before you start throwing things like "this type of behavior is unacceptable and inexcusable" think for a minute. Tell me you would like a court reporter taking down every word of you out with your buddies for drinks or at dinner, on the bench of your rec-league sport, or more correlatively on a guys getaway weekend (likely a bachelor party). Then were you not only forced to face all the things you id/said, but you have to be accountable for them in front of the entire world. Seriously, go get your phone or computer right now, read trough your group texts or chats or emails with your close friends, and tell me you are proud of what is in there. Would you read them aloud to a room full of strangers? How about your boss? Your in-laws? How about your mother? Because that is as close to the comardery as you will ever have like there is in an NFL locker room.


Glass Houses, this thread is full of them

Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
Could not agree more
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Worm Guts


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't your buddies, this is a job. You shouldn't have to put up with this bull [inappropriate/removed] at your job. Saying it's different because it's a lockerroom is the same type of lame excuse we've heard at various other businesses. They had to change and so should the NFL.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
This isn't your buddies, this is a job. You shouldn't have to put up with this bull [inappropriate/removed] at your job. Saying it's different because it's a lockerroom is the same type of lame excuse we've heard at various other businesses. They had to change and so should the NFL.
That is where you are wrong, and you clearly haven't been apart of anything like that atmosphere, or else you would understand.

They are with these guys day-in and day-out, shedding the clichéd blood sweat and tears with each other. They are as close as you can get, basically brothers. This is much more than a job, you or me flipping burgers or processing checks is a job, this is their LIFE, so much that some can't barely function when they walk away.

And once again, trying to equate this atmosphere to an office is just a joke, more laughable than any other argument in this entire conversation.

And just FYI, thinking the "other various business'" have actually changes is just being naive. They have a better public image now, because they keep things quiet and are much more selective with who they bring into those workplaces.

Saying "a locker room is different" is not an excuse, its a fact. And if you have to be so PC that you can't handle that, then enjoy beating your head against the wall, because its not going to change.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:

Saying "a locker room is different" is not an excuse, its a fact. And if you have to be so PC that you can't handle that, then enjoy beating your head against the wall, because its not going to change.


A locker room being "different" shouldn't be an excuse for the types of antics demonstrated here. It has nothing to do with being PC.
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yankee0724


Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Quote:
In mid-November 2013, we interviewed every player who was on the Dolphins’ roster, all of the Dolphins’ coaching staff and key front office personnel. We also interviewed a number of former Dolphins, some of Jonathan Martin’s teammates from Stanford, two of Martin’s coaches from Stanford, Martin’s parents and his agent.


Seriously? Martin's college teammates. Martin's college coaches. Martins parents and agent! None of those for Incognito, Pouncey, or Jerry. How is that not biased?
Because they were interviewed to find the extent to which Martin's depression has troubled him and how he assimilates into normal locker rooms. They weren't interviewed to be character witnesses.
Except thats how they are presented in the text.


I read the report. They absolutely were not being portrayed that way. If you truly think that, please explain why.

Quote:
No matter how "unbiased" you want someone to be, they never will be. Especially when one man had as much influence over an entire investigation/report as Wells clearly does.

Just like how obvious the bias' of members of this forum are.


Wells has no stake in this. Everything in that report was presented fairly and backed with evidence and, at times, basic psychological processes as expounded upon by a licensed psychologist.

Quote:
The majortiy of posters who have spent a considerable amount of time in higher lever sports or fraternity atmospheres completely understand what is going on, mostly because many have been around or apart of this exact situation (likely not to this extent, but similar none the less);
Someone is brought in, who doesn't quite fit in, but really wants to try to. And while they think they can hang, and blow off the jabs & taunts, it just isn't going to work out. And where the problem comes in is no one addresses the issue till it has gone so far down the rabbit hole that there is no going back. And when we come out the other side the person who now believes they are the 'victim' often sensationalizes what they have been apart of often now believing that it was all an attack on them. [b]Then claim their participation in acts that they have committed were as a defense mechanism, trying to absolve themselves of their actions that they are now embarrassed/ashamed of. Or more likely because if they admitted to voluntarily joining the shenanigans then they would completely validate the other side while incriminating themselves. While the side who is looked at as the aggressor has no clue why they are being painted as the villain, because they we being perpetuated by all the parties involved, as well as other peripheral parties. They feel completely betrayed by a guy who they believe they have reached out and taken into the group. They are just treating them as "one of their own" and see nothing wrong with it because "their own" all enjoy this type of relationship as well (i.e. Snitches get Stitches/Blood in, blood out).


What about the numerous times the report mentioned other players telling Martin he shouldn't have to endure what they're doing...or the assistant trainer sending a text to Martin essentially corroborating the abuse? You're just gonna say Martin is exaggerating what was going on? Just gonna chalk it up to "boys will be boys?" Ok then.

You should also look up some of the articles in Appendix A that directly relate to the bolded. It might open your eyes to some things.There's a lot more I could say about the sheer idiocy of that thought process, but I won't.

Quote:
And the other side of the coin is the group who likely believe that either themselves or someone close to them (kid/sibling) was "bullied" and now look for it everywhere they can. The group that gives ideas like this site credence, mostly because them and their group weren't accepted by the larger perceived "popular crowd", all while their just as ethnocentric circle of friends had the same type of remarks and thoughts toward everyone who was not them. These groups have bred this "everyone gets a trophy" society that is slowly spreading and is effecting the core of this fundamental difference in ideals. The fact that "bullying" is now based upon an "imbalance of power" shows where the problem with this discussion begins. What one side wants to call bullying is the social norm for the other.


Since that is the website I linked to earlier, I'm going assume this part is directed toward me.

I wouldn't say I've been bullied, nor do I know of anybody who I would say has been bullied. I don't look for bullying everywhere. I don't give credence to any idea that just because people don't accept you into their clique that they're bullying you. It's actually quite clear that you don't understand what that site is referring to by using the phrase imbalance of power. Simply being stronger than them, having an embarrassing picture, or anything that could be considered an imbalance of power, does not necessarily have to do with bullying. It is what you do with that power that defines bullying. If you use your power over somebody, in this particular case, being the leader in the locker room, to consistently talk about sexual acts you would partake in with someone's sister and mother, to leave a racially charge voicemail on their phone, to make racial comments about various members of the organization, to make homophobic remarks about a teammate, to...you get the idea.

And you can't even honestly try and make the claim that they did not know it was affecting Martin. The fine book has a fine for Incognito for breaking Martin and for Garner not breaking first. You can't ignore the various text messages Martin sent to his parents and friends. You can't ignore the text message the assistant trainer sent to Martin. You can't ignore Incognito admitting that all of it was to get under people's skins. You can't ignore other players saying that they saw how it was affecting Martin. You can't ignore them saying Martin told them to stop.

That is not a social norm. Let's not even call it bullying nonsense because that's a term reserved for when it takes place among schoolchildren. These things do happen outside of that age group. We just call it harassment.

While Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry may not have been intending to cause any harm in any of the instances in the report, they still absolutely should be held responsible for their actions.

Quote:
Before you start throwing things like "this type of behavior is unacceptable and inexcusable" think for a minute. Tell me you would like a court reporter taking down every word of you out with your buddies for drinks or at dinner, on the bench of your rec-league sport, or more correlatively on a guys getaway weekend (likely a bachelor party). Then were you not only forced to face all the things you id/said, but you have to be accountable for them in front of the entire world. Seriously, go get your phone or computer right now, read trough your group texts or chats or emails with your close friends, and tell me you are proud of what is in there. Would you read them aloud to a room full of strangers? How about your boss? Your in-laws? How about your mother? Because that is as close to the comardery as you will ever have like there is in an NFL locker room.


Glass Houses, this thread is full of them


I would have absolutely no problem with that. I treat people the same way I would want them to treat me. Do I mess around with my friends and make fun of them, absolutely. Do I do it to any degree I would be ashamed of having my mother hear it? Absolutely not.

I played baseball all growing up and had a very close group of friends that I hung out with. We joked around with each other, called each other names, all that. None of us EVER took it to the extremes that Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry did. We stopped when it became apparent that it was starting to bother someone. It was apparent it was bothering Martin: they did not stop. That's the issue.
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Thelonebillsfan


Joined: 22 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
This isn't your buddies, this is a job. You shouldn't have to put up with this bull [inappropriate/removed] at your job. Saying it's different because it's a lockerroom is the same type of lame excuse we've heard at various other businesses. They had to change and so should the NFL.
That is where you are wrong, and you clearly haven't been apart of anything like that atmosphere, or else you would understand.

They are with these guys day-in and day-out, shedding the clichéd blood sweat and tears with each other. They are as close as you can get, basically brothers. This is much more than a job, you or me flipping burgers or processing checks is a job, this is their LIFE, so much that some can't barely function when they walk away.

And once again, trying to equate this atmosphere to an office is just a joke, more laughable than any other argument in this entire conversation.

And just FYI, thinking the "other various business'" have actually changes is just being naive. They have a better public image now, because they keep things quiet and are much more selective with who they bring into those workplaces.

Saying "a locker room is different" is not an excuse, its a fact. And if you have to be so PC that you can't handle that, then enjoy beating your head against the wall, because its not going to change.


Rolling Eyes

"Black players will never play, a locker room can never accept them. I'm sorry, that's just a fact, if you wanna be PC and slam your head against a wall, fine."

That's the single stupidest argument to have. This isn't a HS locker room, this is a professional league, with professional players. This is their job. If someone at your job tells you to stop. You stop. It's nothing more than an excuse and people continuously make it and that doesn't just suddenly make it right. All you're doing is, yes, making excuses.

Just because that's "the way things are" doesn't suddenly [inappropriate/removed] make it okay. Why is that so hard for people to understand that?
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Thelonebillsfan


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no "PC crowd" trying to make everybody into a freeloading sissy that can't take rejection.

There is a clear, demonstrative line that was crossed here. Saying "that's just how things are" is an excuse, nothing more than that.
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BlueOne


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who defend this because a locker room is a "brotherhood" confuse me. If my friends or real brother acted like Incognito I would cut them out of my life. Being a "brotherhood" doesn't mean you treat eachother like [inappropriate/removed], I would hope it means the exact opposite.

Yes locker rooms are generally more crass/aggressive than an office building and I have no problem with that, but the second it's clear that your behavior is seriously bothering a co-worker you stop. The end. The parties have no choice but to interact especially in the NFL where there aren't other job opportunities. The only thing Martin did incorrectly is that he should probably have notified people within the team that this [inappropriate/removed] needed to stop earlier on this process, most specifically Philbin, prior to going outside the team. That said, the errors Martin made pale in comparison to those who harassed him.
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