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Trying to visualize a Ray Horton Defense
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KingTitan


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Trying to visualize a Ray Horton Defense Reply with quote

I looked at highlight of Daryl Washington.
(Zach Brown or Zach Gooden should take notes, it could be either one of them)

http://youtu.be/tBfjqh1dzc8


But things I noticed:


6 guys coming and one dropping out.

The blitzes. Double Gap Blitzes up the middle
Fast guys
Everyone taking a gap and going (even on runs)
Putting as many versatile guys on the field at once, meaning more playmakers, not just bodies to "defend the run."
Blitzing often put LBs on overmatched RBs

Pro Bowl year for Washington, he had 9 sacks.
Another had 6.5
Three other had 4.0 sacks
Following in Horton's desire not to have that "one" guy but have multiple guys that can get you, making it harder to stop.
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TwoToneBlue


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing those highlights....this defense is gonna be fun to watch. We will be attacking instead of reacting.
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Chocolateman78


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think the most troubling thing about Ray horton's defensive scheme is that it doesn't stop the run well.

The difference in Arizona's run defense under Horton vs last year was staggering. Arizona was the top run defense last year. Up from 28th when Horton ran the defense a year before. Even last year he didn't make the Browns any better against the run.

I know for most people getting sacks is the only way of measuring if a defense is any good, but run defense is still important in this league. Especially in the playoffs. I have some reservations. Especially if all of our linemen are going to one gap and we ask undersized LBs (like Brown and Gooden) to hold up in the middle. I don't think having a top 10 pass rush is worth having a bottom 10 run defense.

This is the main reason I think Louis Nix makes the most sense at #11.

I know alot of people will down play this. Heck even KT mentions the allure of having more "playmakers" at the expense of bodies just to defend the run. Look I cosign to that way of thinking but those playmakers have to play the run on the way to the football and that's something I haven't seen with consistency out of Ray Horton's defenses. That's the greatest thing that concerns me. I hope people don't think scheme alone is gonna fix that problem, because Horton's schemes historically have not done that.
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KingTitan


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought about that too...the risk of sacrificing run defense for smaller bodies who can get to the QB.

But it does take players. Ideally guys who can play the run and the pass.

I just hate the idea of taking someone just because he is a big guy. We all saw how getting bigger with Gray didn't really mean better run defense.

Ultimately we need players. I struggle to identify college DTs because so many get by, just because they are the bigger guys and not technique.

Getting Nix at 11 wouldn't be a jump for joy moment for me. I dunno...him, Bridgewater to name two...just don't appeal to me.
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TitanSS


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a couple of mid round NTs that I would really like us to consider. Justin Ellis is one.

If Nix would have came back in 2013 and played well I would probably be okay with him at 11. Right now I just feel like he may be a reach.
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KingTitan


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nix's injury is a little flag. I think it's a foot injury? I wonder how that will effect him and will it be a reoccurring issue? He only going to get bigger(heavier)

Also, having better LBs could maybe impact the run game.
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TitanSS


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingTitan wrote:
Nix's injury is a little flag. I think it's a foot injury? I wonder how that will effect him and will it be a reoccurring issue? He only going to get bigger(heavier)

Also, having better LBs could maybe impact the run game.


Knee injury. That's what makes it scary.

Torn Meniscus. Had surgery.
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Chocolateman78


Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingTitan wrote:
I thought about that too...the risk of sacrificing run defense for smaller bodies who can get to the QB.

But it does take players. Ideally guys who can play the run and the pass.

I just hate the idea of taking someone just because he is a big guy. We all saw how getting bigger with Gray didn't really mean better run defense.

Ultimately we need players. I struggle to identify college DTs because so many get by, just because they are the bigger guys and not technique.

Getting Nix at 11 wouldn't be a jump for joy moment for me. I dunno...him, Bridgewater to name two...just don't appeal to me.


How many undersized/hybrid pass rushers could you say the exact same thing about? Get by on speed and athleticism, but zero technique. It goes both ways.

We also all know that Jerry Grey is a mediocre defensive coordinator, in general. So just because "getting bigger" didn't work for him, doesn't mean its not the pertinent step to take for our defense.

I don't want Nix because I think he's just a big guy whose hard to move. I like him because he's a big guy who can also move and hustle. I think he has a ceiling similar to BJ Raji and Vince Wilfork. Those big boys make life eaiser for everyone one in the front seven.
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TitanSS


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chocolateman78 wrote:
KingTitan wrote:
I thought about that too...the risk of sacrificing run defense for smaller bodies who can get to the QB.

But it does take players. Ideally guys who can play the run and the pass.

I just hate the idea of taking someone just because he is a big guy. We all saw how getting bigger with Gray didn't really mean better run defense.

Ultimately we need players. I struggle to identify college DTs because so many get by, just because they are the bigger guys and not technique.

Getting Nix at 11 wouldn't be a jump for joy moment for me. I dunno...him, Bridgewater to name two...just don't appeal to me.


How many undersized/hybrid pass rushers could you say the exact same thing about? Get by on speed and athleticism, but zero technique. It goes both ways.

We also all know that Jerry Grey is a mediocre defensive coordinator, in general. So just because "getting bigger" didn't work for him, doesn't mean its not the pertinent step to take for our defense.

I don't want Nix because I think he's just a big guy whose hard to move. I like him because he's a big guy who can also move and hustle. I think he has a ceiling similar to BJ Raji and Vince Wilfork. Those big boys make life eaiser for everyone one in the front seven.


Anthony Barr is one of those guys. Granted he is incredibly athletic and if he could develop the technique would be amazing; I just don't feel comfortable selecting him that high.

If I knew Nix would be who he was in 2012 I would probably be okay with taking him at 11.

Does anyone know if he will be participating at the combine? Not sure how the injury will effect that.
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titans0021


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we'll get a pretty good feel for how our run defense is going to be based on the first depth chart and FA. If we go out, sign a guy like Dansby and then use Casey and Martin as ends with Morgan playing some OLB, that's a pretty good recipe for a strong run defense based solely around having some guys up front that can hold their own at the point of attack and get some penetration. If we run with Brown and Gooden at ILB with Morgan playing DE and Ayers and a rookie at OLB, yeah, it might be time to get a little worried about the run defense.
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titansNvolsR#1


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we could snag Daniel McCullers, I would not be upset. No earlier than round four though. Won't get much push on the QB, but would certainly take up blockers in the running game. Wouldn't be a terrible backup to have.
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Chocolateman78


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derrick Morgan shouldn't stand up. I don't think he has the agility or the length. He's a lineman.

He should bulk up to 285ish and play 5-tech.

He specializes in setting the edge and struggles to close as a rusher. Why stand him up?
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Buckeyeboy89


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chocolateman78 wrote:
Derrick Morgan shouldn't stand up. I don't think he has the agility or the length. He's a lineman.

He should bulk up to 285ish and play 5-tech.

He specializes in setting the edge and struggles to close as a rusher. Why stand him up?


Completely agree
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Titan89


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will say this. I may catch flak for this but I really hope we keep Wimbley around at least for this coming season. We can cut other guys for cap space and being that we will be running a lot of 3-4 a veteran LB like Wimbley who has six years experience in a 3-4 would be good to have around.

I know he hasn't lived up to expectations but I can see him fitting in and doing well with an attacking more 3-4 defense and would mean we would have to worry less about linebackers who can play 3-4. We know Wimbley can play in the scheme and I hope we keep him around. We don't need more needs.
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TitanSlim


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was on the Louis Nix bandwagon but I'd honestly rather draft Zach Kerr in the mid-late rounds than Nix at 11.
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