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Making my case for a pass rusher at 27…

 
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Making my case for a pass rusher at 27… Reply with quote



Sean Payton is an offensive genius… I think we’d all agree on that. However, when you breakdown Payton’s system he’s proven over the years that he truly don’t need the BEST players only the BEST fits. Drew Brees is a former 2nd round selection and outcast of the San Diego Chargers who while a solid NFL player was never the Hall of Fame player that he is now until landing in Payton’s system. Other key players of this vaunted Saints offense Marcus Colston (7th round), Jimmy Graham (3rd round), Lance Moore (Undrafted), Pierre Thomas (Undrafted), Jahri Evans (4th round), Carl Nicks (5th round), Zach Strief (7th round), Jermon Bushrod (4th round).

I can go on and on here… The only really big time investments draft wise on offense were Reggie Bush, Robert Meachem & Mark Ingram. Reggie was a big time contributor but his production was quickly matched by Darren Sproles in free agency. Meachem despite being a 1st round pick and decent contributor over the years never really elevated himself past 3rd on the depth chart and was even allowed to leave via free agency at one point. Mark Ingram has been through much debate and even if he has turned the corner, good luck finding anyone who feels he’s actually better than undrafted rookie free agent Khiry Robinson in Payton’s system. Hell, Charles Brown was the highest drafted offensive lineman during the Payton era and we all know how that story will end!

My point is that while many feel like the Saints may need to land premier talent on offense that historically has not panned out to well under Payton and company. Do they need to restock the cupboard? Yes, no doubt but investing high level draft picks is just simply not how this offensive juggernaut has been built throughout the years.

Now we all understand that this is a copycat league and we know that the Seattle Seahawks are the standard in the NFL now, especially their defense. I for one admire the way Seattle has built their defensive secondary! I love the length and press ability of Richard Sherman, the physicality of Kam Chancllor and the speed & instincts of Earl Thomas but having said all of that I understand that no other secondary in the NFL benefits more from what their defensive front does more than those Seattle defenders.

Regardless of what type of defensive alignment you run these days, honestly it doesn’t really matter because almost all of the successful defensives run a multi alignment front anyways. The bottom line is that the NFL dominate defenses can apply pressure on the opposing quarterback with 4 defenders or less. This is the way of the NFL these days! Yes, it helps to have top level secondary players and you always need stout linebacker play but if you, as a defensive unit are able to apply quarterback pressure with 4 front seven players or less allowing your defensive coordinator to drop an extra defensive back in coverage it is simply the way towards a dominate NFL defense in today’s game.

So why a pass rusher at 27…

Simple, as I’ve stated above… Sean Payton will continue to field on of the top offenses in the NFL and he will do so with mid to late round prospects and undrafted studs. Cornerback is likely our biggest need this offseason but the pool in free agency and the draft is very deep at that position and Loomis will never simply fill a need with his 1st selection. When Loomis selects at 27 it will be who they as a group consider to be the best available player on the board for what they want to do. Another thing to consider as well is that in the NFL draft, teams do take into consideration the depth of the positional class and factor that into the overall grade of the big board.

What does that mean?

Well if the Saints can land a corner in the 2nd round that is close to the talent level as to the one they would get in the 1st and you compare that to what kind of drop off it is at other positions like say pass rusher depending on the depth of the draft at that position will come into play.

As I look at the landscape of this exciting young Saints defense, I do see a need for another dynamic pass rusher up front. Look, Cameron Jordan is a flat out super star and Junior Galette is a stud. Akiem Hicks is a developing player but his impact comes from pressure and run defending ability. I like the potential of a Glenn Foster but he’s more of an adequate rotational player to me. Victor Butler could very well add a pass rushing threat but he’s entering the final year of his deal and is coming off a torn ACL injury and for the most part is still an unknown here. Jenkins and Bunkley offer very little if anything in the pass rushing department. Outside of the starters, you also need depth in order to consistently apply pressure with 4 or less down defenders. Cameron Jordan for as good as he is played over 92% of the defensive snaps this past season and Galette wasn’t far behind. That amount of snaps wears defenders down throughout the season and increases the odds of blitzing more than the defensive coordinator would like too.

Heading into this draft, the depth at pass rusher isn’t necessarily deep and the free agency class is pretty dry. So in my opinion, landing a top quality pass rusher at the top of the draft is a must this year. I know that many of you will disagree with me on this but regardless of the position… whether it be a defensive tackle, end or edge rushing linebacker the Saints need help in this department which would allow them to pressure opposing quarterbacks with 4 defenders or less and allow max coverage on the back end. Pittsburgh’s Aaron Donald, Missouri’s Kony Elay, Notre Dame’s Stephon Tuitt, Auburn’s Dee Ford, Oregon State’s Scott Crichton, Georgia Tech’s Jeremiah Attaochu & BYU’s Kyle Van Noy are all prospects that could very likely be there at the 27th pick and would give Saints DC Rob Ryan another impact front seven pass rusher that will afford him the luxury of that extra defender in the secondary.

Thoughts…



WHODAT
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spanky3801


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSU's Anthony "The Freak" Johnson, but not in the 1st
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101stSaintsFan


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Making my case for a pass rusher at 27… Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:


Sean Payton is an offensive genius… I think we’d all agree on that. However, when you breakdown Payton’s system he’s proven over the years that he truly don’t need the BEST players only the BEST fits. Drew Brees is a former 2nd round selection and outcast of the San Diego Chargers who while a solid NFL player was never the Hall of Fame player that he is now until landing in Payton’s system. Other key players of this vaunted Saints offense Marcus Colston (7th round), Jimmy Graham (3rd round), Lance Moore (Undrafted), Pierre Thomas (Undrafted), Jahri Evans (4th round), Carl Nicks (5th round), Zach Strief (7th round), Jermon Bushrod (4th round).

I can go on and on here… The only really big time investments draft wise on offense were Reggie Bush, Robert Meachem & Mark Ingram. Reggie was a big time contributor but his production was quickly matched by Darren Sproles in free agency. Meachem despite being a 1st round pick and decent contributor over the years never really elevated himself past 3rd on the depth chart and was even allowed to leave via free agency at one point. Mark Ingram has been through much debate and even if he has turned the corner, good luck finding anyone who feels he’s actually better than undrafted rookie free agent Khiry Robinson in Payton’s system. Hell, Charles Brown was the highest drafted offensive lineman during the Payton era and we all know how that story will end!

My point is that while many feel like the Saints may need to land premier talent on offense that historically has not panned out to well under Payton and company. Do they need to restock the cupboard? Yes, no doubt but investing high level draft picks is just simply not how this offensive juggernaut has been built throughout the years.

Now we all understand that this is a copycat league and we know that the Seattle Seahawks are the standard in the NFL now, especially their defense. I for one admire the way Seattle has built their defensive secondary! I love the length and press ability of Richard Sherman, the physicality of Kam Chancllor and the speed & instincts of Earl Thomas but having said all of that I understand that no other secondary in the NFL benefits more from what their defensive front does more than those Seattle defenders.

Regardless of what type of defensive alignment you run these days, honestly it doesn’t really matter because almost all of the successful defensives run a multi alignment front anyways. The bottom line is that the NFL dominate defenses can apply pressure on the opposing quarterback with 4 defenders or less. This is the way of the NFL these days! Yes, it helps to have top level secondary players and you always need stout linebacker play but if you, as a defensive unit are able to apply quarterback pressure with 4 front seven players or less allowing your defensive coordinator to drop an extra defensive back in coverage it is simply the way towards a dominate NFL defense in today’s game.

So why a pass rusher at 27…

Simple, as I’ve stated above… Sean Payton will continue to field on of the top offenses in the NFL and he will do so with mid to late round prospects and undrafted studs. Cornerback is likely our biggest need this offseason but the pool in free agency and the draft is very deep at that position and Loomis will never simply fill a need with his 1st selection. When Loomis selects at 27 it will be who they as a group consider to be the best available player on the board for what they want to do. Another thing to consider as well is that in the NFL draft, teams do take into consideration the depth of the positional class and factor that into the overall grade of the big board.

What does that mean?

Well if the Saints can land a corner in the 2nd round that is close to the talent level as to the one they would get in the 1st and you compare that to what kind of drop off it is at other positions like say pass rusher depending on the depth of the draft at that position will come into play.

As I look at the landscape of this exciting young Saints defense, I do see a need for another dynamic pass rusher up front. Look, Cameron Jordan is a flat out super star and Junior Galette is a stud. Akiem Hicks is a developing player but his impact comes from pressure and run defending ability. I like the potential of a Glenn Foster but he’s more of an adequate rotational player to me. Victor Butler could very well add a pass rushing threat but he’s entering the final year of his deal and is coming off a torn ACL injury and for the most part is still an unknown here. Jenkins and Bunkley offer very little if anything in the pass rushing department. Outside of the starters, you also need depth in order to consistently apply pressure with 4 or less down defenders. Cameron Jordan for as good as he is played over 92% of the defensive snaps this past season and Galette wasn’t far behind. That amount of snaps wears defenders down throughout the season and increases the odds of blitzing more than the defensive coordinator would like too.

Heading into this draft, the depth at pass rusher isn’t necessarily deep and the free agency class is pretty dry. So in my opinion, landing a top quality pass rusher at the top of the draft is a must this year. I know that many of you will disagree with me on this but regardless of the position… whether it be a defensive tackle, end or edge rushing linebacker the Saints need help in this department which would allow them to pressure opposing quarterbacks with 4 defenders or less and allow max coverage on the back end. Pittsburgh’s Aaron Donald, Missouri’s Kony Elay, Notre Dame’s Stephon Tuitt, Auburn’s Dee Ford, Oregon State’s Scott Crichton, Georgia Tech’s Jeremiah Attaochu & BYU’s Kyle Van Noy are all prospects that could very likely be there at the 27th pick and would give Saints DC Rob Ryan another impact front seven pass rusher that will afford him the luxury of that extra defender in the secondary.

Thoughts…



WHODAT


I'm about sold on Dee Ford. I just want to see hiw measurables at the combine, but I'm not entirely concerned with what he does on paper. We need speed on the edge.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Making my case for a pass rusher at 27… Reply with quote

Quote:

I'm about sold on Dee Ford. I just want to see hiw measurables at the combine, but I'm not entirely concerned with what he does on paper. We need speed on the edge.


I'm a huge fan of Ford as well... reminds me a lot of Seahawks DE Cliff Avril. Ford is also an underrated run defender as well but his get off and speed around the edge is elite. Scheme versatile as well who could play in either Ryan's 3 or 4 man fronts.
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FLOODx


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we can sign a CB in FA I wouldn't mind going pass rusher at 27.
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101stSaintsFan


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Ryan goes pass rusher at 27. He isn't known for drafting them. I bet he goes DB/S in the draft if Payton doesn't outright override him and grab offense. I think Dee would be an excellent pickup if, as flood said, we grab a CB in FA. Galette, Jordan and Ford could be VERY nasty. I'm a firm believer that we have the front line to disrupt any offensive line and grabbing Dee Ford would make what is young and great potentially much better.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

101stSaintsFan wrote:
I don't think Ryan goes pass rusher at 27. He isn't known for drafting them. I bet he goes DB/S in the draft if Payton doesn't outright override him and grab offense. I think Dee would be an excellent pickup if, as flood said, we grab a CB in FA. Galette, Jordan and Ford could be VERY nasty. I'm a firm believer that we have the front line to disrupt any offensive line and grabbing Dee Ford would make what is young and great potentially much better.


If the Saints opt for defense in round one, Ryan will have input but it will ultimately be a front office decision. If Ryan gets his fill at CB in FA then odds are he'll bang the table for a edge rusher.
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Canadian Saint


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My biggest issue with this is in regards to the safety position. This FS class isn't all that great nor deep.

Free agency, well Byrd will cost a fair bit and I don't know if we can afford him.

IMO, a S is key to any D. We gave up so many passing plays at the end of the year, a good CB and FS can really solidify our D. Bush may have shown good things last year, but I'd like something else to give him competition.

Dee Ford would be a great addition opposite to Junior, but I'm not sure I want that instead of having a potential lock down secondary.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canadian Saint wrote:
My biggest issue with this is in regards to the safety position. This FS class isn't all that great nor deep.

Free agency, well Byrd will cost a fair bit and I don't know if we can afford him.

IMO, a S is key to any D. We gave up so many passing plays at the end of the year, a good CB and FS can really solidify our D. Bush may have shown good things last year, but I'd like something else to give him competition.

Dee Ford would be a great addition opposite to Junior, but I'm not sure I want that instead of having a potential lock down secondary.


Well there are a few good SS in free agency as well and if Vacarro can play FS, I think he can personally, then getting a SS wouldn't be too big of a problem. If not then Jenkins might be the best budget option for a one or two year year as much as people hate to admit it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Donald is there you flip the bird to the 3-4 and embrace the 4-3. Jordan, Donald, Hicks, and Galette may be the most talent front line in the NFL.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unfsaint wrote:
If Donald is there you flip the bird to the 3-4 and embrace the 4-3. Jordan, Donald, Hicks, and Galette may be the most talent front line in the NFL.


We already run a 4 man front in Jordan, Jenkins, Hicks and Galette, although Jenkins and Bunkley have been interchangable. We don't actually run a 3-4, we usually run a 3-3-5 with one of our LBer playing with his hand in the dirt.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
unfsaint wrote:
If Donald is there you flip the bird to the 3-4 and embrace the 4-3. Jordan, Donald, Hicks, and Galette may be the most talent front line in the NFL.


We already run a 4 man front in Jordan, Jenkins, Hicks and Galette, although Jenkins and Bunkley have been interchangable. We don't actually run a 3-4, we usually run a 3-3-5 with one of our LBer playing with his hand in the dirt.


I think that the 4-2-5 was our most used package this season.



And I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be the base going forward. Galette is better with his hand in the dirt, where he can use his leverage. Jordan has been fantastic as a LDE. If we get Donald...you alternate him and Hicks at 3-tech, and alternate Jenkins and Hicks at 1-tech. You would still have Glenn Foster who can play either LDE or 3-tech. Then you have Galette and Butler to rotate at RDE.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unfsaint wrote:
domepatrol91 wrote:
unfsaint wrote:
If Donald is there you flip the bird to the 3-4 and embrace the 4-3. Jordan, Donald, Hicks, and Galette may be the most talent front line in the NFL.


We already run a 4 man front in Jordan, Jenkins, Hicks and Galette, although Jenkins and Bunkley have been interchangable. We don't actually run a 3-4, we usually run a 3-3-5 with one of our LBer playing with his hand in the dirt.


I think that the 4-2-5 was our most used package this season.



And I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be the base going forward. Galette is better with his hand in the dirt, where he can use his leverage. Jordan has been fantastic as a LDE. If we get Donald...you alternate him and Hicks at 3-tech, and alternate Jenkins and Hicks at 1-tech. You would still have Glenn Foster who can play either LDE or 3-tech. Then you have Galette and Butler to rotate at RDE.


You're right, it's a 4-2-5 in appearance, but it's 3-3-5 in personnel

The difference is only in the name. For whatever reason, that's what the first coach I worked for called his formation (3-3-5) and that's what stuck with me. I think he called it that because he liked the freedom of dropping that LB into coverage into safety and only rushing 3 from time to time.

But yeah, "4-2-5" is probably the much more common name for it, and much easier to say than "3-3-5 with one LBer playing with his hand in the dirt". Laughing
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

You're right, it's a 4-2-5 in appearance, but it's 3-3-5 in personnel

The difference is only in the name. For whatever reason, that's what the first coach I worked for called his formation (3-3-5) and that's what stuck with me. I think he called it that because he liked the freedom of dropping that LB into coverage into safety and only rushing 3 from time to time.

But yeah, "4-2-5" is probably the much more common name for it, and much easier to say than "3-3-5 with one LBer playing with his hand in the dirt". Laughing



True... looking at this lineup it's really deceiving. We have to remember one thing. Rob Ryan used his personnel to field the best unit he could this season but this is not the end game. In a perfect world, Ryan would love to be able to take advantage of Cameron Jordan's (our best player) skill set to its maximum ability. Typically, Jordan has been a far superior pass rusher when kicked inside to the outside shoulder of the guard. This allows Jordan to use his quickness, power and physicality to the best of his abilities.

This would also put Jenkins in his best spot at a 0 tec head up over the center and allow Hicks to play a traditional 5 tec. The Jack position (Gallette) has always been a position that rotated his stance from a down defensive lineman to a stand up edge rusher. At the SAM position on the outside shoulder next to Jordan is typically an athletic edge rusher who has the versatility to rush the passer, set the edge in the run and drop into coverage in certain situations. I believe Butler will get first crack at this position (SAM) but this draft has a few players that would excel at it. BYU's Kyle Van Noy is the perfect kind of jack of all trades player that Ryan eventually needs at this position.

Like it or not but the end game in New Orleans is still a 34 alignment and this is the base look the Saints will continue to build toward under Ryan.
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kelsobob


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post Whodat.
In one of the mocks, a few of us discussed this idea a little.
It makes sense in so many ways. The best way to get more turnovers is pressuring the QB. The best chance to get a 3 and out is sacking the QB.
When you can rotate between 7 lineman and have above avg talent on the line all the time, it makes a nightmare for offenses.
I really like the idea of a WR or CB, but like you said, theres a lot of talent late in the draft at those positions.
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