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Panthers' Luke Kuechly is Defensive Player of the Year
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eaglesfan10


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha panthers fans got so defensive Laughing

I think Levonte David definitely should have won it but you'd be lieing if you didn't atleast admit Keuchly had a great year.
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faccda01


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eaglesfan10 wrote:
Haha panthers fans got so defensive Laughing

I think Levonte David definitely should have won it but you'd be lieing if you didn't atleast admit Keuchly had a great year.


That is where the defensive mindset comes into play. As I've mentioned before, I don't mind people saying another player should have won it, but the immediate backlash portrayed Kuechly as an overrated scrub who wasn't even in the conversation.

Also (not related to the quoted post) nobody has been able to tell me why assisted tackles are so much worse than solo tackles. The tackler still found his way to the ball, and made the play. It really doesn't matter to me whether or not someone else was there too. That is just a mark of a good defense.
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tom cody


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats to him, guy is such a good player. He and Newton are a good nucelus going forward for the Panthers.
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SAK11


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

faccda01 wrote:
eaglesfan10 wrote:
Haha panthers fans got so defensive Laughing

I think Levonte David definitely should have won it but you'd be lieing if you didn't atleast admit Keuchly had a great year.


That is where the defensive mindset comes into play. As I've mentioned before, I don't mind people saying another player should have won it, but the immediate backlash portrayed Kuechly as an overrated scrub who wasn't even in the conversation.

Also (not related to the quoted post) nobody has been able to tell me why assisted tackles are so much worse than solo tackles. The tackler still found his way to the ball, and made the play. It really doesn't matter to me whether or not someone else was there too. That is just a mark of a good defense.


It's because you have times where assists are handed out like beads on Mardi Gras. It's a somewhat sketchy stat, so you have a hyped up player like Kuechly that will likely get some extra assists from the home town scorer. 41-22 was the home and away tackle assist splits for Kuechly this season. Solo tackles aren't perfectly charted either, but they're a little easier to score properly.

Regardless of that he's a great player, I just have a hard time understanding how he could get 13.5 votes and Bowman got none. I have no horse in this race, actually like Kuechly a fair bit as a player, but watching the two, I think Bowman had the superior season and it's ridiculous for him to not even get a sniff at that award. Quinn, Watt and David all had the 'bad team' issue, Hawks DBs cancelled eachother out, Bowman just got snubbed.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

faccda01 wrote:
eaglesfan10 wrote:
Haha panthers fans got so defensive Laughing

I think Levonte David definitely should have won it but you'd be lieing if you didn't atleast admit Keuchly had a great year.


That is where the defensive mindset comes into play. As I've mentioned before, I don't mind people saying another player should have won it, but the immediate backlash portrayed Kuechly as an overrated scrub who wasn't even in the conversation.

Also (not related to the quoted post) nobody has been able to tell me why assisted tackles are so much worse than solo tackles. The tackler still found his way to the ball, and made the play. It really doesn't matter to me whether or not someone else was there too. That is just a mark of a good defense.


I don't really think individual tackle stats have any real importance at all.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assisted tackles are always assumed to mean a player "jumped on a pile." Its never assumed to mean that two players got to the ball carrier simultaneously or that the player got there first and was assisted himself. That's the bottom line. A fan has no idea, so its easier to just dismiss it as "jumping on another pile."
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Assisted tackles are always assumed to mean a player "jumped on a pile." Its never assumed to mean that two players got to the ball carrier simultaneously or that the player got there first and was assisted himself. That's the bottom line. A fan has no idea, so its easier to just dismiss it as "jumping on another pile."


Yep. Everyone's quick to discredit Luke's stats because of the other talent on the defense, but never consider that part of the reason for some of the assisted tackles is that he and Thomas Davis are simultaneously jacking someone up in the backfield Wink
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SAK11


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Assisted tackles are always assumed to mean a player "jumped on a pile." Its never assumed to mean that two players got to the ball carrier simultaneously or that the player got there first and was assisted himself. That's the bottom line. A fan has no idea, so its easier to just dismiss it as "jumping on another pile."


Yep. Everyone's quick to discredit Luke's stats because of the other talent on the defense, but never consider that part of the reason for some of the assisted tackles is that he and Thomas Davis are simultaneously jacking someone up in the backfield Wink


Like someone else said, his individual tackle assist numbers aren't the main reason people think he shouldn't have won. I'm also not sure many people think tackle assist means jumping onto a pile, but rather question them because they aren't the most reliable stat, they aren't like picks or forced fumbles, they're charted inconsistently at best. His 2:1 home to road assist ratio is evidence of that.
Regardless, the opinion that other players were better is why people questioning him winning, and that's based on watching all these top guys play, not just stats. Just at his position alone I fail to understand how he was seen as better than Bowman, which I'd like to have any of you Panther fans answer.
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAK11 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Assisted tackles are always assumed to mean a player "jumped on a pile." Its never assumed to mean that two players got to the ball carrier simultaneously or that the player got there first and was assisted himself. That's the bottom line. A fan has no idea, so its easier to just dismiss it as "jumping on another pile."


Yep. Everyone's quick to discredit Luke's stats because of the other talent on the defense, but never consider that part of the reason for some of the assisted tackles is that he and Thomas Davis are simultaneously jacking someone up in the backfield Wink


Like someone else said, his individual tackle assist numbers aren't the main reason people think he shouldn't have won. I'm also not sure many people think tackle assist means jumping onto a pile, but rather question them because they aren't the most reliable stat, they aren't like picks or forced fumbles, they're charted inconsistently at best. His 2:1 home to road assist ratio is evidence of that.
Regardless, the opinion that other players were better is why people questioning him winning, and that's based on watching all these top guys play, not just stats. Just at his position alone I fail to understand how he was seen as better than Bowman, which I'd like to have any of you Panther fans answer.


I doubt many people [myself included] watched enough of Mathis, Quinn, Bowman, Willis, Watt, David, Sherman, Thomas, etc to make an accurate ranking of them.

I obviously watched enough of Kuechly, and I think he had a great year. From games here or there that I was able to watch of the others, based on general reputation, and based on analysis from people I trust, I don't think Kuechly was the top candidate (several pages back, I mentioned that I would have given the award to Robert Mathis), but like I said, I couldn't possibly have watched enough of all of the candidates to accurately grade all of them for myself.

This topic has gone on far too long for me to remember exactly what everyone has said, but my stance has been that Kuechly had a great year, and definitely should have been in the running (though I would have chosen a couple others before him). Many people have disputed that, and a lot of comments doing such cite stats, jumping on the pile, etc as a reason why he didn't have a great season.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAK11 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Assisted tackles are always assumed to mean a player "jumped on a pile." Its never assumed to mean that two players got to the ball carrier simultaneously or that the player got there first and was assisted himself. That's the bottom line. A fan has no idea, so its easier to just dismiss it as "jumping on another pile."


Yep. Everyone's quick to discredit Luke's stats because of the other talent on the defense, but never consider that part of the reason for some of the assisted tackles is that he and Thomas Davis are simultaneously jacking someone up in the backfield Wink


Like someone else said, his individual tackle assist numbers aren't the main reason people think he shouldn't have won. I'm also not sure many people think tackle assist means jumping onto a pile, but rather question them because they aren't the most reliable stat, they aren't like picks or forced fumbles, they're charted inconsistently at best. His 2:1 home to road assist ratio is evidence of that.
Regardless, the opinion that other players were better is why people questioning him winning, and that's based on watching all these top guys play, not just stats. Just at his position alone I fail to understand how he was seen as better than Bowman, which I'd like to have any of you Panther fans answer.


So you're not sure many other people assume tackle assists are "pile jumping?" Weren't you the one who said, in reference to LK winning, "I guess Bowman needs to jump on a few more piles to rack up those tackle assists?" Why would you think you are unique in thinking that way? I can tell you, in my experience, your opinion is shared by the majority of fans that I see discussing the stat.

Now I am not arguing that the stat means anything. Stats are stats. They can be used, misused, ignored, touted, twisted and mishandled in any way a person wants in order to support the opinion they already made. I am just saying the clear tendency with assists is to assume they were earned by "pile jumping" rather than someone else jumping on the tacklers pile or by two players simultaneously getting to the ball carrier. I am saying there is no reason to assume any of it. Yet its clear most people assume something on the matter. And its usually less than flattering.

As far as Bowman, outside stats, I couldn't say. But I am on record saying numerous times that I prefer the award being about stats. It makes things simple. Give it to the guy with the best numbers. Too easy. For me, David was a shoe in. But the voters are clearly interested in other aspects of the argument as well. Aspects that are far more subjective. Because David dint even garner a single vote. Now if you want me to try and give you an argument based on all that subjective criteria I assume went into the votes for LK I suppose I could try when I get home. It wouldn't be my own opinion, mind you. But I could try and construct an argument that the voters could have been considering when they voted. Though I am sure it would be a waste of time since you aren't looking to be convinced, you just seem to want to see what you consider a valid argument on Luke's behalf. And my guess is you're already convinced there is no valid argument that could be made on Luke's behalf. So no argument I put forward would likely be valid to you.
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faccda01


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAK11 wrote:
faccda01 wrote:
eaglesfan10 wrote:
Haha panthers fans got so defensive Laughing

I think Levonte David definitely should have won it but you'd be lieing if you didn't atleast admit Keuchly had a great year.


That is where the defensive mindset comes into play. As I've mentioned before, I don't mind people saying another player should have won it, but the immediate backlash portrayed Kuechly as an overrated scrub who wasn't even in the conversation.

Also (not related to the quoted post) nobody has been able to tell me why assisted tackles are so much worse than solo tackles. The tackler still found his way to the ball, and made the play. It really doesn't matter to me whether or not someone else was there too. That is just a mark of a good defense.


It's because you have times where assists are handed out like beads on Mardi Gras. It's a somewhat sketchy stat, so you have a hyped up player like Kuechly that will likely get some extra assists from the home town scorer. 41-22 was the home and away tackle assist splits for Kuechly this season. Solo tackles aren't perfectly charted either, but they're a little easier to score properly.

Regardless of that he's a great player, I just have a hard time understanding how he could get 13.5 votes and Bowman got none. I have no horse in this race, actually like Kuechly a fair bit as a player, but watching the two, I think Bowman had the superior season and it's ridiculous for him to not even get a sniff at that award. Quinn, Watt and David all had the 'bad team' issue, Hawks DBs cancelled eachother out, Bowman just got snubbed.


I think Bowman getting zero votes is ridiculous, I agree with that. Still, if you gave me both of those players and told me Kuechly was better, I wouldn't argue. I think Bowman is great, but their stats are not so far apart that you can argue one is better than the other (which is why I agree that Bowman deserved way more votes).
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SAK11


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
SAK11 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Assisted tackles are always assumed to mean a player "jumped on a pile." Its never assumed to mean that two players got to the ball carrier simultaneously or that the player got there first and was assisted himself. That's the bottom line. A fan has no idea, so its easier to just dismiss it as "jumping on another pile."


Yep. Everyone's quick to discredit Luke's stats because of the other talent on the defense, but never consider that part of the reason for some of the assisted tackles is that he and Thomas Davis are simultaneously jacking someone up in the backfield Wink


Like someone else said, his individual tackle assist numbers aren't the main reason people think he shouldn't have won. I'm also not sure many people think tackle assist means jumping onto a pile, but rather question them because they aren't the most reliable stat, they aren't like picks or forced fumbles, they're charted inconsistently at best. His 2:1 home to road assist ratio is evidence of that.
Regardless, the opinion that other players were better is why people questioning him winning, and that's based on watching all these top guys play, not just stats. Just at his position alone I fail to understand how he was seen as better than Bowman, which I'd like to have any of you Panther fans answer.


So you're not sure many other people assume tackle assists are "pile jumping?" Weren't you the one who said, in reference to LK winning, "I guess Bowman needs to jump on a few more piles to rack up those tackle assists?" Why would you think you are unique in thinking that way? I can tell you, in my experience, your opinion is shared by the majority of fans that I see discussing the stat.

Now I am not arguing that the stat means anything. Stats are stats. They can be used, misused, ignored, touted, twisted and mishandled in any way a person wants in order to support the opinion they already made. I am just saying the clear tendency with assists is to assume they were earned by "pile jumping" rather than someone else jumping on the tacklers pile or by two players simultaneously getting to the ball carrier. I am saying there is no reason to assume any of it. Yet its clear most people assume something on the matter. And its usually less than flattering.

As far as Bowman, outside stats, I couldn't say. But I am on record saying numerous times that I prefer the award being about stats. It makes things simple. Give it to the guy with the best numbers. Too easy. For me, David was a shoe in. But the voters are clearly interested in other aspects of the argument as well. Aspects that are far more subjective. Because David dint even garner a single vote. Now if you want me to try and give you an argument based on all that subjective criteria I assume went into the votes for LK I suppose I could try when I get home. It wouldn't be my own opinion, mind you. But I could try and construct an argument that the voters could have been considering when they voted. Though I am sure it would be a waste of time since you aren't looking to be convinced, you just seem to want to see what you consider a valid argument on Luke's behalf. And my guess is you're already convinced there is no valid argument that could be made on Luke's behalf. So no argument I put forward would likely be valid to you.


The Bowman jumping on pile comment was more of a joke, referencing his low assist total to Kuechly's very high total, and connecting that to Kuechly winning the award and Bowman not even getting a vote. I suppose I can't speak for others, but I get how assists work, and even though they aren't pile jumps, they're still questionable at times.

I doubt having the award being based solely on stats would work, not sure how one could compare guys like Sherman to Quinn to David, all do very different things and their numbers show that.

I'm not a Kuchely hater, like I've mentioned I'm a fan of the kid, just didn't see him as the top defensive player, and no need to construct the formula on why voter's picked him, it's fairly obvious.
First he's a great player, that limits the amount of potential winners significantly right away.
Next his stats look good on paper, and voters love stats.
Then you have him as the face of that defense with great name recognition, something that hurt Bowman and to an extent Sherman and Thomas since they cancelled each other out.
Next comes being on a top defense, and a playoff caliber team, another thing voters love. That killed Watt, Quinn and David.
You were left with Mathis and Kuechly, and Kuechly edged him out.
I suppose you, a Panther's fan, saying you wouldn't have voted for him tells me all I need to know.
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faccda01


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAK11 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
SAK11 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Assisted tackles are always assumed to mean a player "jumped on a pile." Its never assumed to mean that two players got to the ball carrier simultaneously or that the player got there first and was assisted himself. That's the bottom line. A fan has no idea, so its easier to just dismiss it as "jumping on another pile."


Yep. Everyone's quick to discredit Luke's stats because of the other talent on the defense, but never consider that part of the reason for some of the assisted tackles is that he and Thomas Davis are simultaneously jacking someone up in the backfield Wink


Like someone else said, his individual tackle assist numbers aren't the main reason people think he shouldn't have won. I'm also not sure many people think tackle assist means jumping onto a pile, but rather question them because they aren't the most reliable stat, they aren't like picks or forced fumbles, they're charted inconsistently at best. His 2:1 home to road assist ratio is evidence of that.
Regardless, the opinion that other players were better is why people questioning him winning, and that's based on watching all these top guys play, not just stats. Just at his position alone I fail to understand how he was seen as better than Bowman, which I'd like to have any of you Panther fans answer.


So you're not sure many other people assume tackle assists are "pile jumping?" Weren't you the one who said, in reference to LK winning, "I guess Bowman needs to jump on a few more piles to rack up those tackle assists?" Why would you think you are unique in thinking that way? I can tell you, in my experience, your opinion is shared by the majority of fans that I see discussing the stat.

Now I am not arguing that the stat means anything. Stats are stats. They can be used, misused, ignored, touted, twisted and mishandled in any way a person wants in order to support the opinion they already made. I am just saying the clear tendency with assists is to assume they were earned by "pile jumping" rather than someone else jumping on the tacklers pile or by two players simultaneously getting to the ball carrier. I am saying there is no reason to assume any of it. Yet its clear most people assume something on the matter. And its usually less than flattering.

As far as Bowman, outside stats, I couldn't say. But I am on record saying numerous times that I prefer the award being about stats. It makes things simple. Give it to the guy with the best numbers. Too easy. For me, David was a shoe in. But the voters are clearly interested in other aspects of the argument as well. Aspects that are far more subjective. Because David dint even garner a single vote. Now if you want me to try and give you an argument based on all that subjective criteria I assume went into the votes for LK I suppose I could try when I get home. It wouldn't be my own opinion, mind you. But I could try and construct an argument that the voters could have been considering when they voted. Though I am sure it would be a waste of time since you aren't looking to be convinced, you just seem to want to see what you consider a valid argument on Luke's behalf. And my guess is you're already convinced there is no valid argument that could be made on Luke's behalf. So no argument I put forward would likely be valid to you.


The Bowman jumping on pile comment was more of a joke, referencing his low assist total to Kuechly's very high total, and connecting that to Kuechly winning the award and Bowman not even getting a vote. I suppose I can't speak for others, but I get how assists work, and even though they aren't pile jumps, they're still questionable at times.

I doubt having the award being based solely on stats would work, not sure how one could compare guys like Sherman to Quinn to David, all do very different things and their numbers show that.

I'm not a Kuchely hater, like I've mentioned I'm a fan of the kid, just didn't see him as the top defensive player, and no need to construct the formula on why voter's picked him, it's fairly obvious.
First he's a great player, that limits the amount of potential winners significantly right away.
Next his stats look good on paper, and voters love stats.
Then you have him as the face of that defense with great name recognition, something that hurt Bowman and to an extent Sherman and Thomas since they cancelled each other out.
Next comes being on a top defense, and a playoff caliber team, another thing voters love. That killed Watt, Quinn and David.
You were left with Mathis and Kuechly, and Kuechly edged him out.
I suppose you, a Panther's fan, saying you wouldn't have voted for him tells me all I need to know.


That sums it up pretty nicely, but I'm confused as to why you don't think he deserved it with the logic you just put forth. Face of one of the best defenses in the NFL with great stats who is a great player.
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Car123


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAK11 wrote:
Guess Bowman needs to jump on the top of a few more piles to rack up those tackle assists.
It's not Kuechly fault that almost every play 3 Carolina defenders fly to the ball carrier.
Most of the time Kuechly arrives first.
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Car123


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAK11 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Assisted tackles are always assumed to mean a player "jumped on a pile." Its never assumed to mean that two players got to the ball carrier simultaneously or that the player got there first and was assisted himself. That's the bottom line. A fan has no idea, so its easier to just dismiss it as "jumping on another pile."


Yep. Everyone's quick to discredit Luke's stats because of the other talent on the defense, but never consider that part of the reason for some of the assisted tackles is that he and Thomas Davis are simultaneously jacking someone up in the backfield Wink


Like someone else said, his individual tackle assist numbers aren't the main reason people think he shouldn't have won. I'm also not sure many people think tackle assist means jumping onto a pile, but rather question them because they aren't the most reliable stat, they aren't like picks or forced fumbles, they're charted inconsistently at best. His 2:1 home to road assist ratio is evidence of that.
Regardless, the opinion that other players were better is why people questioning him winning, and that's based on watching all these top guys play, not just stats. Just at his position alone I fail to understand how he was seen as better than Bowman, which I'd like to have any of you Panther fans answer.
The home team doesn't officially chart the stat. I believe a company does.
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