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Ravens hire Gary Kubiak as OC
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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
lomaxgr wrote:

Molsted has a great point. The ZBS that Shanahan and Kubiak run struggles in the redzone because when a team can afford to play aggressively downhill, the ZBS is exposed (penetration stops the ZBS in its tracks).


It can't be any worse than our OL was in 2013 Wink

But, as DB24 said, we have Pitta, we're likely to have another TE (whether Dickson stays, we draft, or we get a FA), and Ozzie has already said we will have another WR on the roster (and in his words, a "playmaking" WR) by the end of the off-season (us fans believe it will be either a guy with size -- Mike Evans -- or a good route runner -- Jordan Matthews type).


Isn't Pitta a UFA? Do you think the Ravens will franchise tag Pitta?


Franchise or signed long-term, Pitta isn't going anywhere.
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
chiefs82 wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
I like this hire, i think they will try and incorporate Rice more in the rec. game(not calling it dink and dunk, but Rice does well in space)


Yeah I think Rice will be used as more of a featured receiver now as opposed to the safety valve role that Flacco needed when Cameron's all-deep routes were ineffective.


2013 Jamaal Charles part deaux?

Well... assuming Rice cuts bulk and gets back to his former self. As it stands however, Rice isn't as athletic as he was at 24... by far. His body has fallen off the past two seasons due to weight.

Whether his body is done... or if he just needs to lose some weight/change his body to make his style of running more effective for him in his older age (in terms of usage, not years). It'll be interesting to see if it's the former or latter scenario that is true.


His career is eerily similar to Clinton Portis (aside from the receiving ability). Ran wild earlier in his career at a lighter weight with great success. As the offensive line fell apart started to pick up little injuries due to the volume of carries and gained weight to better absorb the punishment behind a poor line. Then he lost the weight, but the carries and nagging injuries took their toll.

In short, he's very close to his end. Using Rice as the Ravens did is exactly how you wear down a RB prematurely. You have to hand it to Newsome for looking at the Rice contract situation as coldly calculating as he did. At least the Redskins had the good sense of paying Portis in exchange for running him into the ground.


Where are you getting the idea that we didn't pay Rice?
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:

His career is eerily similar to Clinton Portis (aside from the receiving ability). Ran wild earlier in his career at a lighter weight with great success. As the offensive line fell apart started to pick up little injuries due to the volume of carries and gained weight to better absorb the punishment behind a poor line. Then he lost the weight, but the carries and nagging injuries took their toll.

In short, he's very close to his end. Using Rice as the Ravens did is exactly how you wear down a RB prematurely. You have to hand it to Newsome for looking at the Rice contract situation as coldly calculating as he did. At least the Redskins had the good sense of paying Portis in exchange for running him into the ground.


I honestly don't get why people suddenly believe Rice is basically done.

In 2012, he ran for 1100 yards @ 4.4 YPC. The Ravens OL generated 4.3 YPC overall. In comparison, Bernard Pierce ran for 532 yards @ 4.9 YPC.

In 2013, he ran for 660 yards @ 3.1 YPC. The Ravens OL generated 3.1 YPC. In comparison, Bernard Pierce ran for 436 yards @ 2.9 YPC.

Then you add in the hip injury Rice pushed through for the first half of the season as well, and it's pretty clear to me that his fall off has a lot more to do with an atrocious OL and an injury than it does with him simply falling off. Unless, of course, Bernard Pierce suffered an even worse falling off after a single year in the NFL.

Could it be that Rice fell off a cliff in terms of production? Sure. But given the context of the run game in general in Baltimore in 2013, I think the benefit of the doubt has to be given to Rice in that it's not nearly as severe as it seems.

I'll go ahead and call it now: Ray Rice will be a strong candidate for CPOY in 2014 at a tune of 1100 yards and 7 TDs.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
footy_29 wrote:

His career is eerily similar to Clinton Portis (aside from the receiving ability). Ran wild earlier in his career at a lighter weight with great success. As the offensive line fell apart started to pick up little injuries due to the volume of carries and gained weight to better absorb the punishment behind a poor line. Then he lost the weight, but the carries and nagging injuries took their toll.

In short, he's very close to his end. Using Rice as the Ravens did is exactly how you wear down a RB prematurely. You have to hand it to Newsome for looking at the Rice contract situation as coldly calculating as he did. At least the Redskins had the good sense of paying Portis in exchange for running him into the ground.


I honestly don't get why people suddenly believe Rice is basically done.

In 2012, he ran for 1100 yards @ 4.4 YPC. The Ravens OL generated 4.3 YPC overall. In comparison, Bernard Pierce ran for 532 yards @ 4.9 YPC.

In 2013, he ran for 660 yards @ 3.1 YPC. The Ravens OL generated 3.1 YPC. In comparison, Bernard Pierce ran for 436 yards @ 2.9 YPC.

Then you add in the hip injury Rice pushed through for the first half of the season as well, and it's pretty clear to me that his fall off has a lot more to do with an atrocious OL and an injury than it does with him simply falling off. Unless, of course, Bernard Pierce suffered an even worse falling off after a single year in the NFL.

Could it be that Rice fell off a cliff in terms of production? Sure. But given the context of the run game in general in Baltimore in 2013, I think the benefit of the doubt has to be given to Rice in that it's not nearly as severe as it seems.

I'll go ahead and call it now: Ray Rice will be a strong candidate for CPOY in 2014 at a tune of 1100 yards and 7 TDs.


Yes, because RBs return so well from hip injuries. Just like Portis was assumed to be able to return from a hip injury and be his usual self after fighting through one. My comparison is still apt. He is given a heavy workload, followed by a couple of years behind an offensive line that hits the wall suddenly, and he picks up a couple of leg injuries while fighting behind that mess. It will be a year or two to successfully transition that OL to the zone-blocking system, so it will not be significantly better this coming year.

Maybe I am overly influenced by my years watching Portis, but this exactly the process that he went through. He'll be cut after the 2014 season, or if he's fortunate after the 2015 season.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:

Yes, because RBs return so well from hip injuries. Just like Portis was assumed to be able to return from a hip injury and be his usual self after fighting through one. My comparison is still apt. He is given a heavy workload, followed by a couple of years behind an offensive line that hits the wall suddenly, and he picks up a couple of leg injuries while fighting behind that mess. It will be a year or two to successfully transition that OL to the zone-blocking system, so it will not be significantly better this coming year.

Maybe I am overly influenced by my years watching Portis, but this exactly the process that he went through. He'll be cut after the 2014 season, or if he's fortunate after the 2015 season.


Let's break this down.

First off, the injuries were most definitely not the same, nor even the same body part. Portis suffered groin injuries, not hip injuries. He also suffered a slew of concussions, broken hand, shoulder injury, etc. Ray Rice has suffered his hip injury and then something minor later in the season, but I can't remember what.

But bottom line, the injury situations are not similar pretty much at all.

Secondly, the workload differences between the two is staggering to say the least, so to compare them as if they are similar is unjust. In 95 games started from 2003-2009 (I removed Portis' final two seasons where injuries had already had their impact), Portis had a total of 2052 carries, or 21.6 carries per game. Conversely, up through 2013, Rice has played (only used started for first year and games played for rest since I don't remember him missing any prior yet starts were lower) 83 games with a total of 1430 carries or 17.2 carries per game. That's nearly 4.5 carries less a game which is quite significant over the course of many seasons. Ray Rice has only had 290+ carries twice in his career -- Portis had 5 in 6 years.

I get it -- you're jaded by watching Portis take a nosedive and as soon as you see a RB's numbers decline quickly and there's an associated injury, it brings back memories. But there's most certainly context to take into account (the Ravens OL having the league's worst run blocking), a small sample size to consider (a single injury in a single season vs. repeated injuries over several seasons) and a pretty large difference in wear and tear that you're claiming is quite similar.

Bottom line: It's overblown. It may very well be that he's on his way out -- or, with everything considered, it could be that he had a bad season, playing through an injury and behind the league's worst OL which also saw all runners have poor seasons.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom cody wrote:
Great to see Kubiak get another job, guy deserves to have a position with a NFL team.


Why is that? Is it because he always coached a team with great potential down to the point where they wouldn't have much playoff success at all, except for against one team?
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
footy_29 wrote:

Yes, because RBs return so well from hip injuries. Just like Portis was assumed to be able to return from a hip injury and be his usual self after fighting through one. My comparison is still apt. He is given a heavy workload, followed by a couple of years behind an offensive line that hits the wall suddenly, and he picks up a couple of leg injuries while fighting behind that mess. It will be a year or two to successfully transition that OL to the zone-blocking system, so it will not be significantly better this coming year.

Maybe I am overly influenced by my years watching Portis, but this exactly the process that he went through. He'll be cut after the 2014 season, or if he's fortunate after the 2015 season.


Let's break this down.

First off, the injuries were most definitely not the same, nor even the same body part. Portis suffered groin injuries, not hip injuries. He also suffered a slew of concussions, broken hand, shoulder injury, etc. Ray Rice has suffered his hip injury and then something minor later in the season, but I can't remember what.

But bottom line, the injury situations are not similar pretty much at all.

Secondly, the workload differences between the two is staggering to say the least, so to compare them as if they are similar is unjust. In 95 games started from 2003-2009 (I removed Portis' final two seasons where injuries had already had their impact), Portis had a total of 2052 carries, or 21.6 carries per game. Conversely, up through 2013, Rice has played (only used started for first year and games played for rest since I don't remember him missing any prior yet starts were lower) 83 games with a total of 1430 carries or 17.2 carries per game. That's nearly 4.5 carries less a game which is quite significant over the course of many seasons. Ray Rice has only had 290+ carries twice in his career -- Portis had 5 in 6 years.

I get it -- you're jaded by watching Portis take a nosedive and as soon as you see a RB's numbers decline quickly and there's an associated injury, it brings back memories. But there's most certainly context to take into account (the Ravens OL having the league's worst run blocking), a small sample size to consider (a single injury in a single season vs. repeated injuries over several seasons) and a pretty large difference in wear and tear that you're claiming is quite similar.

Bottom line: It's overblown. It may very well be that he's on his way out -- or, with everything considered, it could be that he had a bad season, playing through an injury and behind the league's worst OL which also saw all runners have poor seasons.

This is being disingenuous to only assume that "carries" take a toll on a RBs body.

First off, Rice came out of Rutgers with:
05' = 203 touches (195 car, 8 recs) in 12 games
06' = 339 touches (335 car, 4 recs) in 13 games
07' = 405 touches (380 car, 25 recs) in 13 games
Career = 947 touches/38 games = 24.9 touches/game

Portis out of Miami with:
99' = 147 touches (143 car, 4 recs) in 10 games
00' = 82 touches (77 car, 5 recs) in 8 games
01' = 232 touches (220 car, 12 recs) in 11 games
Career = 461 touches/29 games = 15.9 touches/game

So Rice had 2.05x the collegiate usage as Portis to start their NFL careers. 400+ touches in a collegiate season is an INSANE amount of usage. These factors count in a RBs shelf life. The speedometer doesn't simply restart once the NFL games start going.

So now let's move onto Portis, the pro player. I won't do a season breakdown, instead, he had a total of 2477 touches in his pro career. Meaning in his entire measurable career (college- pros), Portis had 2938 touches in his 12 years.

Ray Rice, to this point, has 1799 touches in his pro career. Meaning in his entire measurable career (college- pros), Rice has had 2746 touches in his 9 years.

Even if we eliminate receptions from the equation (and since these are mostly short yardage reception that put plenty of wear and tear on a RB we shouldn't) then those numbers are:
Portis = 2230 + 440 = 2670 in 12 years = 222.5 atts/season
Rice = 1430 + 910 = 2340 in 9 years = 260 atts/season

People aren't simply assuming Rice to potentially be "done" based off of some personal grudge. These are statistical breakdowns for a RBs shelf life that if we were to apply across most RB careers, we will see that once they get past a particular amount of usage, they begin to experience a decline... if not a noticeable decline. Ray Rice is at that point... mostly because of his usage at Rutgers. It was one of the reasons, along with his height, why he even fell so far to begin with considering his playmaking collegiate ability. Many were weary about his usage and how that would impact his professional career.

Posting those OL statistics simply shows that these past two seasons Ray Rice has only been able to produce to what his OL has allowed. Good RBs are able to exceed that number by making defenders miss after first contact. Pierce, for example, had more 0.5 yards past what the line provided because once at the second level, he could drag or juke defenders to create extra yardage. Rice, on the other hand, was largely reliant on the ability of his OL to gain those yards.

Furthermore the hip injury is an excuse. Sure, it definitely affected Rice's play this season for a 7 week period (or so), but prior to the hip injury Rice lacked his same explosive ability as 2011 before he added the bulk in 2012... this was even after he reduced his playing weight for 2013 by about 5-10 lbs. So if Rice wants to maintain his current RB style, then his only choice now is to go from that 205 lbs range he was in during the 2013 season and cut it down even further, to about 195 lbs... where he was during his college career.

Because simply put, his RB style has always been more of a Barry Sanders style where he doesn't break tackles but rather shake defenders to get yards after his OLs generated push. We saw this season that his RB vision allowed him to play better behind a poor OL than Pierce, however once past the LOS... he could not produce excess yards whereas Pierce could. Behind a great OL, Pierce is still the superior RB option.. because he will be able to better locate the holes (which is why his YPC is low) and then take those runs for bigger gains. If Rice wants to maintain his superiority, he needs to find a way to make his RB style work... and that means further cutting bulk.. it's his only chance.

Lastly, for further proof of Rice's decline in physical ability, look no further than yards per reception numbers:
08' = 8.3
09' = 9.0
10' = 8.8
11' = 9.3
12' = 7.8
13' = 5.5


This breakdown shows a steep decline in receiving production. Just two seasons ago Rice was an elite 3rd down receptions magnet. An easy checkdown solution for big play yardage. This past season, his loss of quickness PRIOR to the hip injury and after it was fully recovered led to incredibly mediocre numbers. The hip injury only served to exacerbate the issue. But as his 2012 season showed, the decline was already present. The hip issue only made Rice go from what was likely a 6.5-7.0 YPR average to a more paltry 5.5 number.

Ray Rice, the 210 lbs RB is no more. His playing style simply won't allow him to be near the productive back that his contract expects in this league at that size. Cutting bulk and regaining his elite level quickness is his only solution to solving his physical decline. Ray Lewis attempted to do the same thing in 2012... cut bulk so as to be a more explosive player.

Lewis wasn't able to endure the entire NFL season at his reduced weight, but it wasn't a "bad" idea. And for Rice he only needs to endure a good 10-12 carries while working as more of a receiving RB to make things work. Increased quickness would allow for a greater YPC average over OL generated yards... and the quickness could potentially get his YPR back up into that 8+ range. Thus we could be talking about:
190 carries, 900 yds + 65 recs, 530 yds = 1400+ YFS...

Very nice production from a starting back in a RB tandem.

EDIT: Not to mention that a lower playing weight would mean less mass on his joints per usage which should help to further extend his playing career to complete his current contract.

If Rice doesn't cut the bulk and stubbornly tries to continue to prove that his explosiveness and quickness aren't on the decline... and that the hip injury and the OL is the only reason for his decline in 2013, then he WILL be cut prior to his contract being up and he will lose out on the money he stands to make if he simply brings nice production to the table for us. The rest of the league won't be as generous and loyal to him if he's cut.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelKing728 wrote:
tom cody wrote:
Great to see Kubiak get another job, guy deserves to have a position with a NFL team.


Why is that? Is it because he always coached a team with great potential down to the point where they wouldn't have much playoff success at all, except for against one team?

Uh.. what are you talking about? You really must be some kind of mis-informed to make such a statement as this. It's INCREDIBLY ignorant.

Kubiak has been on a coaching staff that has won 3 SBs... first with the 49ers as Steve Young's QB coach and then with the Denver Broncos as OC where he won two SBs.

Then he goes to the Texans and took a dismal expansion franchise that had never put forth a winning season and improved their offense to the point where they finally established a team identity and got them to their first non-losing seasons in franchise history with back to back .500 seasons. Then the team further progressed to 9-7 the following year just missing out on a playoff bid due to a tie-breaker. 2010 was a disaster because of his defense, not his offense. And in 2011 and 2012 he coached the Texans to 10-6 and 12-4 respectively, as once they got a defense, the team proved to be one of the most formidable teams in the NFL.

Kubiak might not understand defense or be a reliable option in that department, but to try and discredit his success with the Texans is simply ridiculous. The guy built the Texans into one of the more consistently formidable offensive units in the league under his tenure... and outside of Andre Johnson, there wasn't an elite draft prospect that he was provided with. A guy like that DEFINITELY deserves to be coaching in this league under some capacity. To say otherwise simply makes little sense at best... and a hater at worst.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:

This is being disingenuous to only assume that "carries" take a toll on a RBs body.


I agree. Though, I do argue that carries take a LOT more of a toll than catches do mostly due to who is tackling them and how.

Quote:
First off, Rice came out of Rutgers with:
05' = 203 touches (195 car, 8 recs) in 12 games
06' = 339 touches (335 car, 4 recs) in 13 games
07' = 405 touches (380 car, 25 recs) in 13 games
Career = 947 touches/38 games = 24.9 touches/game

Portis out of Miami with:
99' = 147 touches (143 car, 4 recs) in 10 games
00' = 82 touches (77 car, 5 recs) in 8 games
01' = 232 touches (220 car, 12 recs) in 11 games
Career = 461 touches/29 games = 15.9 touches/game

So Rice had 2.05x the collegiate usage as Portis to start their NFL careers. 400+ touches in a collegiate season is an INSANE amount of usage. These factors count in a RBs shelf life. The speedometer doesn't simply restart once the NFL games start going.

So now let's move onto Portis, the pro player. I won't do a season breakdown, instead, he had a total of 2477 touches in his pro career. Meaning in his entire measurable career (college- pros), Portis had 2938 touches in his 12 years.

Ray Rice, to this point, has 1799 touches in his pro career. Meaning in his entire measurable career (college- pros), Rice has had 2746 touches in his 9 years.

Even if we eliminate receptions from the equation (and since these are mostly short yardage reception that put plenty of wear and tear on a RB we shouldn't) then those numbers are:
Portis = 2230 + 440 = 2670 in 12 years = 222.5 atts/season
Rice = 1430 + 910 = 2340 in 9 years = 260 atts/season


Very good math. As stated, however, I do think carries have a lot more of a toll but overall, valid points.

Quote:
People aren't simply assuming Rice to potentially be "done" based off of some personal grudge. These are statistical breakdowns for a RBs shelf life that if we were to apply across most RB careers, we will see that once they get past a particular amount of usage, they begin to experience a decline... if not a noticeable decline. Ray Rice is at that point... mostly because of his usage at Rutgers. It was one of the reasons, along with his height, why he even fell so far to begin with considering his playmaking collegiate ability. Many were weary about his usage and how that would impact his professional career.


I don't deny this and can agree.

Quote:

Posting those OL statistics simply shows that these past two seasons Ray Rice has only been able to produce to what his OL has allowed. Good RBs are able to exceed that number by making defenders miss after first contact. Pierce, for example, had more 0.5 yards past what the line provided because once at the second level, he could drag or juke defenders to create extra yardage. Rice, on the other hand, was largely reliant on the ability of his OL to gain those yards.


I don't think that's quite how it works. Obviously the YPC for the leading carrier will be closer to what the OL allows -- that's because he's the one getting them. They will always be skewed towards the guy who gets the bulk carries. I don't think argument holds much weight.

Quote:
Furthermore the hip injury is an excuse. Sure, it definitely affected Rice's play this season for a 7 week period (or so), but prior to the hip injury Rice lacked his same explosive ability as 2011 before he added the bulk in 2012... this was even after he reduced his playing weight for 2013 by about 5-10 lbs. So if Rice wants to maintain his current RB style, then his only choice now is to go from that 205 lbs range he was in during the 2013 season and cut it down even further, to about 195 lbs... where he was during his college career.


I do agree he lost burst when he added weight -- but he still performed very solidly. And 2013, since the injury was sustained in Week 2, it's a tough situation to say that he didn't show burst when given such a small sample size, especially when the only full game he played was against Denver in which ALL players looked awful.

I disagree with him needing to cut down even further in order to continue to be effective at his style. I contend that the OL + injury accounted much more for his fall in production that sharply declining skills. I'm not arguing he's declining due to wear and tear, I'm arguing that that decline is made to appear much worse than it truly is due to the context.

Quote:
Because simply put, his RB style has always been more of a Barry Sanders style where he doesn't break tackles but rather shake defenders to get yards after his OLs generated push. We saw this season that his RB vision allowed him to play better behind a poor OL than Pierce, however once past the LOS... he could not produce excess yards whereas Pierce could.


I do agree with this. This is where I believe he may start to trail off -- the after contact yards. But, with even an average OL, I think we'd have seen him produce even 3.8-4.0 YPC while battling an injury.

Quote:
Behind a great OL, Pierce is still the superior RB option.. because he will be able to better locate the holes (which is why his YPC is low) and then take those runs for bigger gains. If Rice wants to maintain his superiority, he needs to find a way to make his RB style work... and that means further cutting bulk.. it's his only chance.


I do agree that Pierce is on the up and Rice on the down -- but again, I disagree with the notion that Rice's only chance to remain effective is to continue cutting weight. I believe it can certainly help, but I believe getting healthy + getting a competent OL will do a heck of a lot more for him (as well as Pierce). I'm not here arguing that Pierce won't take touches -- I'm arguing simply that Rice's decline in production is moreso due to the context of 2013 than it is his declining skills.

Quote:
Lastly, for further proof of Rice's decline in physical ability, look no further than yards per reception numbers:
08' = 8.3
09' = 9.0
10' = 8.8
11' = 9.3
12' = 7.8
13' = 5.5


This breakdown shows a steep decline in receiving production. Just two seasons ago Rice was an elite 3rd down receptions magnet. An easy checkdown solution for big play yardage. This past season, his loss of quickness PRIOR to the hip injury and after it was fully recovered led to incredibly mediocre numbers. The hip injury only served to exacerbate the issue. But as his 2012 season showed, the decline was already present. The hip issue only made Rice go from what was likely a 6.5-7.0 YPR average to a more paltry 5.5 number.


You also have to take into account here that teams knew we couldn't beat them deep consistently due to poor OL pass protection and limited options, so they were consistently having an extra defender in the box which would obviously cut down on the open field for him.

And again, I contend that the sample size prior to his Week 2 injury is too little to tell anything definitively. As well, while he may have said he was 100%, I have my doubts. But, if you compare his YPC while still in the 'injury zone' (prior to Chicago game), he was at 2.51 YPC -- then after the 'injury zone' (after Chicago game -- I left this game out as an outlier) he was running at 3.24. So, the evidence is there that the injury was certainly a pretty big hampering for him.

Quote:

Ray Rice, the 210 lbs RB is no more. His playing style simply won't allow him to be near the productive back that his contract expects in this league at that size. Cutting bulk and regaining his elite level quickness is his only solution to solving his physical decline. Ray Lewis attempted to do the same thing in 2012... cut bulk so as to be a more explosive player.


I'm not arguing that it may help, but I do disagree that it's his only option to be productive.

Quote:
Lewis wasn't able to endure the entire NFL season at his reduced weight, but it wasn't a "bad" idea. And for Rice he only needs to endure a good 10-12 carries while working as more of a receiving RB to make things work. Increased quickness would allow for a greater YPC average over OL generated yards... and the quickness could potentially get his YPR back up into that 8+ range. Thus we could be talking about:
190 carries, 900 yds + 65 recs, 530 yds = 1400+ YFS...

Very nice production from a starting back in a RB tandem.


That's be wonderful.

Quote:
EDIT: Not to mention that a lower playing weight would mean less mass on his joints per usage which should help to further extend his playing career to complete his current contract.

If Rice doesn't cut the bulk and stubbornly tries to continue to prove that his explosiveness and quickness aren't on the decline... and that the hip injury and the OL is the only reason for his decline in 2013, then he WILL be cut prior to his contract being up and he will lose out on the money he stands to make if he simply brings nice production to the table for us. The rest of the league won't be as generous and loyal to him if he's cut.


Definitely think that's quite obsessive, but you're entitled to that opinion.

My point isn't about whether Rice should/shouldn't cut weight, nor is it about him proving anything.

My point is simply that I don't believe that his drop in production is nearly as much due to declining skill as it was to do with the putrid OL and a nagging injury. Do I think he's beginning a downward climb? Yes. Do I think it's Clinton Portis/Sean Alexander level? Absolutely not, at least at this point. Do I think he can still be a productive back if he does nothing else but get healthy and the OL improve to be at least serviceable? Yes. Do I think he could be even better getting a bit thinner? Sure. But again, my point was simply that the notion that he's all of the sudden basically done, a Clinton Portis clone or what have you is exaggerated based on the context of the 2013 season.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:

Quote:

Posting those OL statistics simply shows that these past two seasons Ray Rice has only been able to produce to what his OL has allowed. Good RBs are able to exceed that number by making defenders miss after first contact. Pierce, for example, had more 0.5 yards past what the line provided because once at the second level, he could drag or juke defenders to create extra yardage. Rice, on the other hand, was largely reliant on the ability of his OL to gain those yards.


I don't think that's quite how it works. Obviously the YPC for the leading carrier will be closer to what the OL allows -- that's because he's the one getting them. They will always be skewed towards the guy who gets the bulk carries. I don't think argument holds much weight.

That's fully possible. I assumed that generated yards from the OL was a more accurate measure of what they actually generated vs. what the top back was able to produce behind that. For instance... I would've assumed that maybe the Chiefs OL in past years might've "produced" say 4.3 yards of push, while Jamaal Charles was able to run for 5.0+ YPC... or Adrian Peterson having a line that "generated" 3.8 YPC... and Peterson averaging 4.8 YPC.

I assumed that there was some sort of accurate measure to that statistic. I won't pretend to be an expert on all these different stats and how they're compiled. So that point very well could be flawed.

Flaccomania wrote:
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Furthermore the hip injury is an excuse. Sure, it definitely affected Rice's play this season for a 7 week period (or so), but prior to the hip injury Rice lacked his same explosive ability as 2011 before he added the bulk in 2012... this was even after he reduced his playing weight for 2013 by about 5-10 lbs. So if Rice wants to maintain his current RB style, then his only choice now is to go from that 205 lbs range he was in during the 2013 season and cut it down even further, to about 195 lbs... where he was during his college career.


I do agree he lost burst when he added weight -- but he still performed very solidly. And 2013, since the injury was sustained in Week 2, it's a tough situation to say that he didn't show burst when given such a small sample size, especially when the only full game he played was against Denver in which ALL players looked awful.

I disagree with him needing to cut down even further in order to continue to be effective at his style. I contend that the OL + injury accounted much more for his fall in production that sharply declining skills. I'm not arguing he's declining due to wear and tear, I'm arguing that that decline is made to appear much worse than it truly is due to the context.

This seeks to basically right off the entire season because of one injury. We saw Rice with a few carriers in the preseason, we saw his Denver game, we saw the 2nd game before the hip injury... so even if one turns a blind eye away from the rest of games played in 2013 (which I HIGHLY disagree with) seeing that sample gave us 52 carries where we could use to measure his explosiveness and agility.

Just like one can look at film of a collegiate prospect and gather how athletic he is by looking at 2-3 gametapes (52 carries is about two to three games worth), we can look at Rice's pre-injury carries... all 52 of them and gather a strong representation of his athletic prowess heading into 2013. It doesn't take a full season of carries at optimal health to judge a players athletic ability. Our sample size was certainly strong enough to make a proper determination prior to his injury.

And based on that sample size and using 2011 as the base comparison point. 2012 Rice was probably 5% stronger than 2011 Rice, but a good 15% less explosive/agile. 2013 Rice however, appeared to be about 5% weaker than 2011 Rice while being 10% less explosive/agile... all while playing at a similar weight to 2011 Rice. Bulking up to 215 lbs in 2012 definitely took its tole on Rice's athleticism IMO... it ate it up faster than what he might've otherwise seen had he simply stuck to his 200-205 lbs playing weight he was at since his last season in college. Even 2010/11 he probably bulked up to 208 lbs, but the difference in size increase vs speed lost was nominal, at best.

Flaccomania wrote:
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Because simply put, his RB style has always been more of a Barry Sanders style where he doesn't break tackles but rather shake defenders to get yards after his OLs generated push. We saw this season that his RB vision allowed him to play better behind a poor OL than Pierce, however once past the LOS... he could not produce excess yards whereas Pierce could.


I do agree with this. This is where I believe he may start to trail off -- the after contact yards. But, with even an average OL, I think we'd have seen him produce even 3.8-4.0 YPC while battling an injury.

Perhaps. But I would definitely think it would have been on the lower end of that projection. His hip injury drastically reduced his explosiveness and reduced his agility even more than his explosiveness. To go back to using 2011 Rice as the base. One might say Hip injury Rice was about 15% less explosive and 20% less agile. I doubt there was much more Rice could've done because even with an average defense they probably close in on him in time to stop him from getting 4 yards more often than not. He was simply too slow.

Flaccomania wrote:
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Behind a great OL, Pierce is still the superior RB option.. because he will be able to better locate the holes (which is why his YPC is low) and then take those runs for bigger gains. If Rice wants to maintain his superiority, he needs to find a way to make his RB style work... and that means further cutting bulk.. it's his only chance.


I do agree that Pierce is on the up and Rice on the down -- but again, I disagree with the notion that Rice's only chance to remain effective is to continue cutting weight. I believe it can certainly help, but I believe getting healthy + getting a competent OL will do a heck of a lot more for him (as well as Pierce). I'm not here arguing that Pierce won't take touches -- I'm arguing simply that Rice's decline in production is moreso due to the context of 2013 than it is his declining skills.

I disagree. I don't think 660 rushing yards and more important his horrible YPA average was simply due to a horrid OL and injury. I think we both understand that it's a combination of factors... and both would attribute the injury and OL to being a bigger part of that context... however I definitely think his physical decline was apparent from the onset.

The YPA numbers is the perfect stat to look at. This isn't going to be nearly as influenced by his OL because these are pass plays where he sneaks out past the LOS and usually makes a cut and picks up 7-10 yards of offense based on his explosive ability and agility. But against Denver and Cleveland, he was held to 4.38 YPR and 3.00 YPR respectively. To put this in perspective. That was the first time in Rice's professional career where he was held below 5 YPR in back to back games since weeks 11/12 of his rookie season. Where I believe he was playing through a rib injury. Rice simply wasn't quick enough to juke LBers after the catch and pick up the yards he would've in 2011. One could argue that Denver has an incredible set of cover LBers. Or that Cleveland has DQwell Jackson. However the eye test simply didn't show a RB that had the same elite level agility... it didn't even show great agility. Instead it showed a runner that attempted to juke and was easily targeted and destroyed on first contact.

Flaccomania wrote:
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Lastly, for further proof of Rice's decline in physical ability, look no further than yards per reception numbers:
08' = 8.3
09' = 9.0
10' = 8.8
11' = 9.3
12' = 7.8
13' = 5.5


This breakdown shows a steep decline in receiving production. Just two seasons ago Rice was an elite 3rd down receptions magnet. An easy checkdown solution for big play yardage. This past season, his loss of quickness PRIOR to the hip injury and after it was fully recovered led to incredibly mediocre numbers. The hip injury only served to exacerbate the issue. But as his 2012 season showed, the decline was already present. The hip issue only made Rice go from what was likely a 6.5-7.0 YPR average to a more paltry 5.5 number.


You also have to take into account here that teams knew we couldn't beat them deep consistently due to poor OL pass protection and limited options, so they were consistently having an extra defender in the box which would obviously cut down on the open field for him.

And again, I contend that the sample size prior to his Week 2 injury is too little to tell anything definitively. As well, while he may have said he was 100%, I have my doubts. But, if you compare his YPC while still in the 'injury zone' (prior to Chicago game), he was at 2.51 YPC -- then after the 'injury zone' (after Chicago game -- I left this game out as an outlier) he was running at 3.24. So, the evidence is there that the injury was certainly a pretty big hampering for him.

1. This certainly wasn't the first time Rice had to deal with that treatment in his career. Pre-Torrey Smith we never had a true deep threat to stretch defenses deep, yet Rice compiled the majority of his pass production during that span as Flacco was known as the "checkdown king" (or one of them at least). Also these pass plays where Rice gets the ball are usually dump-offs where the LBers have begun to drop back into zone and Rice gets the dump off and can usually make one LBer miss and pick up 7+ yards before the next LBer is able to make a play on him. This season, Rice wasn't able to do that FTMP. He could only very occasionally make one LBer miss.

2. As for your second paragraph, I was purposely eliminating YPC from the equation so one could see how Rice performed without as much influence from the OL. But to discount this premise, which seeks to assume that Rice's late season health drastically improved his YPC average... one could simply put to Bernard Pierce's stats before/after that Chicago game as well. He was at 2.81 YPC before that game and 3.20 YPC after that game. So we can either assume that after that game the OL improved their blocking, the defense's we faced were inferior to those faced before that cutoff, or some combination of the two. Injury may have played a role as well, but it probably doesn't account for anything more than the difference of Rice's 0.5 YPC less than Pierce prior to his recovery phase. Nothing more.

Flaccomania wrote:
Quote:

Ray Rice, the 210 lbs RB is no more. His playing style simply won't allow him to be near the productive back that his contract expects in this league at that size. Cutting bulk and regaining his elite level quickness is his only solution to solving his physical decline. Ray Lewis attempted to do the same thing in 2012... cut bulk so as to be a more explosive player.


I'm not arguing that it may help, but I do disagree that it's his only option to be productive.

I also didn't state that he couldn't be productive. My point is that he's under contract that expects him to perform to the level of a top 10-15 back in this league. At his current explosive ability, I doubt he's capable of producing to those expectations. Cutting bulk is his only hope if he wants to get back to being an elite (or perhaps more reasonably a very good) 3rd down receptions magnet. It's his only hope if he wants to produce in that 4.3-4.5 YPC realm that he tended to be in during prior years. I don't think 4.1 YPC and 7.0 YPR is going to cut it as being productive enough for the Ravens to not look to move on from Rice before his contract is up. Ozzie isn't a virgin... he's gotten rid of a good player before, remember?

Flaccomania wrote:
Quote:
Lewis wasn't able to endure the entire NFL season at his reduced weight, but it wasn't a "bad" idea. And for Rice he only needs to endure a good 10-12 carries while working as more of a receiving RB to make things work. Increased quickness would allow for a greater YPC average over OL generated yards... and the quickness could potentially get his YPR back up into that 8+ range. Thus we could be talking about:
190 carries, 900 yds + 65 recs, 530 yds = 1430 YFS...

Very nice production from a starting back in a RB tandem.


That's be wonderful.

Exactly. It's not spectacular, but would be enough production to keep the team faithful to paying Rice what his contract demands have him being paid. But let's say he doesn't cut the bulk. Let's assume he goes into next season one year older at the RB position and with physical ability that is mostly similar to 2013. And his numbers look like this instead:
190 carries 780 yds + 65 recs, 455 yds= 1235 YFS

Suddenly we're talking about a decline of about 200 yards of production. Now let's assume Pierce is able to put forth about 900-1000 YFS under that same scenario with less usage... why would the Ravens be willing to continue to pay Rice what they're paying him, when they could roll with Pierce as the starting back for much less cost... and simply provide Pierce with a veteran backup like Bernard Scott... and maybe a rookie RB from the middle to late rounds? Rice's contract probably expects him to achieve in that 1500 YFS range, so the former scenario is at least close enough, but the latter scenario would certainly make him expendable for what he'd be getting paid.

Flaccomania wrote:
Quote:
EDIT: Not to mention that a lower playing weight would mean less mass on his joints per usage which should help to further extend his playing career to complete his current contract.

If Rice doesn't cut the bulk and stubbornly tries to continue to prove that his explosiveness and quickness aren't on the decline... and that the hip injury and the OL is the only reason for his decline in 2013, then he WILL be cut prior to his contract being up and he will lose out on the money he stands to make if he simply brings nice production to the table for us. The rest of the league won't be as generous and loyal to him if he's cut.


Definitely think that's quite obsessive, but you're entitled to that opinion.

My point isn't about whether Rice should/shouldn't cut weight, nor is it about him proving anything.

My point is simply that I don't believe that his drop in production is nearly as much due to declining skill as it was to do with the putrid OL and a nagging injury. Do I think he's beginning a downward climb? Yes. Do I think it's Clinton Portis/Sean Alexander level? Absolutely not, at least at this point. Do I think he can still be a productive back if he does nothing else but get healthy and the OL improve to be at least serviceable? Yes. Do I think he could be even better getting a bit thinner? Sure. But again, my point was simply that the notion that he's all of the sudden basically done, a Clinton Portis clone or what have you is exaggerated based on the context of the 2013 season.

While I agree that Ray Rice hasn't completely fallen off yet, there does need to be reasonable doubt as to whether he hasn't hit a serious decline. RBs have followed similar trends before and fallen off just as quickly. Ray Rice wouldn't be the first RB to see it happen to him.

My point, however, has been that it's noticeable that Rice HAS lost a step and a half... even when healthy and even when at his usual playing weight. So if he wants to regain those 1 1/2 steps to get back to similar productivity to prime Rice (2011) than he's going to need to cut further bulk.

And I think Ray Rice understands might understand that this:
BR.com wrote:
To avoid muscular issues in the future, Rice told reporters that he will re-examine his offseason training regimen once the season is over. The 5-foot-8, 212-pound running back even mentioned the idea of cutting some weight to add more speed to his game.

“Maybe less muscle, more speed,” he said. “It might be something that I want to change up. That will be an offseason study for myself.

“I think I came into the season in great shape. This just happened to be a freak deal, something I probably wasn’t used to.”

If Rice was truly at 212 lbs this season (he didn't look quite that big, unless he was at about 220 lbs in 2012), then 195 lbs might not be the goal, but 202-206 lbs lbs would definitely be something he should look at. Losing another 5-10 lbs would put him right back to being an elite (or very good) explosive/agile athlete... which is a firm part of his game. The hip limited him, but it wasn't the only thing. He was simply not as explosive as in the past... even when healthy. And that made him far easier to contain in situations where he usually had an advantage.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:

This seeks to basically right off the entire season because of one injury. We saw Rice with a few carriers in the preseason, we saw his Denver game, we saw the 2nd game before the hip injury... so even if one turns a blind eye away from the rest of games played in 2013 (which I HIGHLY disagree with) seeing that sample gave us 52 carries where we could use to measure his explosiveness and agility.


Not arguing this, just noting that it's a very small sample size to make such a big judgement off of.

Quote:
Just like one can look at film of a collegiate prospect and gather how athletic he is by looking at 2-3 gametapes (52 carries is about two to three games worth), we can look at Rice's pre-injury carries... all 52 of them and gather a strong representation of his athletic prowess heading into 2013. It doesn't take a full season of carries at optimal health to judge a players athletic ability. Our sample size was certainly strong enough to make a proper determination prior to his injury.


Disagree here. As a college prospect, one can get an "idea" of how they are but it's a small sample size which can very easily lead to differing opinions. Again, my point is simply that the sample size is too small to make such a claim that his career is nearly done.

Quote:
And based on that sample size and using 2011 as the base comparison point. 2012 Rice was probably 5% stronger than 2011 Rice, but a good 15% less explosive/agile. 2013 Rice however, appeared to be about 5% weaker than 2011 Rice while being 10% less explosive/agile... all while playing at a similar weight to 2011 Rice. Bulking up to 215 lbs in 2012 definitely took its tole on Rice's athleticism IMO... it ate it up faster than what he might've otherwise seen had he simply stuck to his 200-205 lbs playing weight he was at since his last season in college. Even 2010/11 he probably bulked up to 208 lbs, but the difference in size increase vs speed lost was nominal, at best.


Not arguing this point.

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Perhaps. But I would definitely think it would have been on the lower end of that projection. His hip injury drastically reduced his explosiveness and reduced his agility even more than his explosiveness. To go back to using 2011 Rice as the base. One might say Hip injury Rice was about 15% less explosive and 20% less agile. I doubt there was much more Rice could've done because even with an average defense they probably close in on him in time to stop him from getting 4 yards more often than not. He was simply too slow.


Not really much substances to argue here other than opinion and speculation, so I digress.


Quote:
I disagree. I don't think 660 rushing yards and more important his horrible YPA average was simply due to a horrid OL and injury. I think we both understand that it's a combination of factors... and both would attribute the injury and OL to being a bigger part of that context... however I definitely think his physical decline was apparent from the onset.


So it seems we mostly agree. I do agree that he's on the decline -- simply that it's not nearly as drastic as the drop in numbers shows (which is what the vast majority of people seem to only care about). Like you said -- it's a variety of factors and the injury/OL are a bigger part. That's what I'm trying to argue here -- that it's overstated due to that context, not that he's not declining overall. We do disagree on how apparent it was prior to 2013, though. I thought it was there, but not clearly evident.

Quote:
The YPA numbers is the perfect stat to look at. This isn't going to be nearly as influenced by his OL because these are pass plays where he sneaks out past the LOS and usually makes a cut and picks up 7-10 yards of offense based on his explosive ability and agility. But against Denver and Cleveland, he was held to 4.38 YPR and 3.00 YPR respectively. To put this in perspective. That was the first time in Rice's professional career where he was held below 5 YPR in back to back games since weeks 11/12 of his rookie season. Where I believe he was playing through a rib injury. Rice simply wasn't quick enough to juke LBers after the catch and pick up the yards he would've in 2011. One could argue that Denver has an incredible set of cover LBers. Or that Cleveland has DQwell Jackson. However the eye test simply didn't show a RB that had the same elite level agility... it didn't even show great agility. Instead it showed a runner that attempted to juke and was easily targeted and destroyed on first contact.


Fair enough point. Again, I agree that he was showing signs of decline prior -- I just don't see it to the level that you do.


Quote:
1. This certainly wasn't the first time Rice had to deal with that treatment in his career. Pre-Torrey Smith we never had a true deep threat to stretch defenses deep, yet Rice compiled the majority of his pass production during that span as Flacco was known as the "checkdown king" (or one of them at least). Also these pass plays where Rice gets the ball are usually dump-offs where the LBers have begun to drop back into zone and Rice gets the dump off and can usually make one LBer miss and pick up 7+ yards before the next LBer is able to make a play on him. This season, Rice wasn't able to do that FTMP. He could only very occasionally make one LBer miss.


Again, we agree that he isn't the player he once was -- just simply different levels.

Quote:
2. As for your second paragraph, I was purposely eliminating YPC from the equation so one could see how Rice performed without as much influence from the OL. But to discount this premise, which seeks to assume that Rice's late season health drastically improved his YPC average... one could simply put to Bernard Pierce's stats before/after that Chicago game as well. He was at 2.81 YPC before that game and 3.20 YPC after that game. So we can either assume that after that game the OL improved their blocking, the defense's we faced were inferior to those faced before that cutoff, or some combination of the two. Injury may have played a role as well, but it probably doesn't account for anything more than the difference of Rice's 0.5 YPC less than Pierce prior to his recovery phase. Nothing more.


Fair enough point.

Quote:
I also didn't state that he couldn't be productive. My point is that he's under contract that expects him to perform to the level of a top 10-15 back in this league. At his current explosive ability, I doubt he's capable of producing to those expectations. Cutting bulk is his only hope if he wants to get back to being an elite (or perhaps more reasonably a very good) 3rd down receptions magnet. It's his only hope if he wants to produce in that 4.3-4.5 YPC realm that he tended to be in during prior years. I don't think 4.1 YPC and 7.0 YPR is going to cut it as being productive enough for the Ravens to not look to move on from Rice before his contract is up. Ozzie isn't a virgin... he's gotten rid of a good player before, remember?


I wasn't trying to imply that you were saying this -- sorry if it came off this way. I was trying to say that this is what many others are implying which is where my entire argument is based. These are the people who aren't putting things into the same context as you and I and are assuming Rice's bad season is because he's done.

And I can agree with you -- if he's putting up those kinds of numbers while healthy, Ozzie very well may move on before his contract's up. If I'm not mistaken, Ozzie set the contract up in a way that would allow him to do so quite easily so it most certainly wouldn't surprise me. That's not been my argument though. I don't know what next season/the future will bring. I personally believe that Rice will bounce back to a top 12 back in terms of production, but I could very well be wrong. My argument is simply about the sample size of 2013 and the context and how it's unfair to jump to large conclusions that his career is essentially over like a Clinton Portis or Sean Alexander. Not that one can't say Rice is on the decline -- and the level can be argued -- but such wild jumps in logic such as the above is what is unjust IMO.

Quote:
Exactly. It's not spectacular, but would be enough production to keep the team faithful to paying Rice what his contract demands have him being paid. But let's say he doesn't cut the bulk. Let's assume he goes into next season one year older at the RB position and with physical ability that is mostly similar to 2013. And his numbers look like this instead:
190 carries 780 yds + 65 recs, 455 yds= 1235 YFS

Suddenly we're talking about a decline of about 200 yards of production. Now let's assume Pierce is able to put forth about 900-1000 YFS under that same scenario with less usage... why would the Ravens be willing to continue to pay Rice what they're paying him, when they could roll with Pierce as the starting back for much less cost... and simply provide Pierce with a veteran backup like Bernard Scott... and maybe a rookie RB from the middle to late rounds? Rice's contract probably expects him to achieve in that 1500 YFS range, so the former scenario is at least close enough, but the latter scenario would certainly make him expendable for what he'd be getting paid.


I agree. I have no remorse is letting vested veterans walk when they've proven they are no longer worth their money to us. I'm with you there Smile I just don't happen to think Rice has done that YET considering the context.


Quote:
While I agree that Ray Rice hasn't completely fallen off yet, there does need to be reasonable doubt as to whether he hasn't hit a serious decline. RBs have followed similar trends before and fallen off just as quickly. Ray Rice wouldn't be the first RB to see it happen to him.


I agree -- doubt is inevitable and 2014 will be huge for him. Again, my argument is for those who ignore that "doubt" and start making "claims" about how he's done, rather than simply "He had a very poor year -- let's see how he does in 2014 to see if he's truly done or if it was just a combination of injury/poor OL". It's the definitive statements that I'm arguing, not the thought.

Quote:
My point, however, has been that it's noticeable that Rice HAS lost a step and a half... even when healthy and even when at his usual playing weight. So if he wants to regain those 1 1/2 steps to get back to similar productivity to prime Rice (2011) than he's going to need to cut further bulk.


Understood, so it's confirmed that we're arguing two different things Smile I agree that he's slowed down -- I just don't agree that he's yet shown it to the level you believe. But, that's what opinions are for and 2014 will be telling.

Quote:
And I think Ray Rice understands might understand that this:
BR.com wrote:
To avoid muscular issues in the future, Rice told reporters that he will re-examine his offseason training regimen once the season is over. The 5-foot-8, 212-pound running back even mentioned the idea of cutting some weight to add more speed to his game.

“Maybe less muscle, more speed,” he said. “It might be something that I want to change up. That will be an offseason study for myself.

“I think I came into the season in great shape. This just happened to be a freak deal, something I probably wasn’t used to.”

If Rice was truly at 212 lbs this season (he didn't look quite that big, unless he was at about 220 lbs in 2012), then 195 lbs might not be the goal, but 202-206 lbs lbs would definitely be something he should look at. Losing another 5-10 lbs would put him right back to being an elite (or very good) explosive/agile athlete... which is a firm part of his game. The hip limited him, but it wasn't the only thing. He was simply not as explosive as in the past... even when healthy. And that made him far easier to contain in situations where he usually had an advantage.


For sure -- I agree that it may do him good, especially if he's splitting time with a bigger back like Pierce. My point with this topic was that I don't think he HAS to in order to remain productive -- though, I do think it'd do him good and I think he could be more productive by doing so.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent hire for Baltimore. Terrible hire for the Division Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand Houston's expectations for its team have really increased beyond the record they had, but I really think even after the season they had Kubiak deserved better than he got.

Getting in Baltimore should be a great opportunity for him and I think he can really bring out the best in whatever QB he works with. I like the pairing with Flacco running that offense. Matt Schaub was never a big-armed QB. We haven't really seen what Kubiak can do with a guy with a cannon like Flacco's.
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