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SDN40


Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 3670
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes - the bust rate on DL has been brutal for years and years. I guess we can keep tossing darts and hoping for a miracle or maybe its time to take a page from other teams books. How about we copy Denver and Seattle, and just sign a guy and get it over with. Not enough money ? Figure it out - everyone else does. Hmmm Denver and Seattle. What do those teams have in common ? I mean, Denver starts Paris Lenon for crying out loud. Maybe its better to have bargain basement guys along with stars, rather than whatever we are doing ?
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NormSizedMidget


Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1183
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDN40 wrote:
Yes - the bust rate on DL has been brutal for years and years. I guess we can keep tossing darts and hoping for a miracle or maybe its time to take a page from other teams books. How about we copy Denver and Seattle, and just sign a guy and get it over with. Not enough money ? Figure it out - everyone else does. Hmmm Denver and Seattle. What do those teams have in common ? I mean, Denver starts Paris Lenon for crying out loud. Maybe its better to have bargain basement guys along with stars, rather than whatever we are doing ?


I'm not trying to be rude but I literally have no idea what this means.

What do they have in common?

On a side note, does he even start? He's a rotational player I believe. Secondly, they don't have a ton of FAs. In fact they lost Dumervil because of a cap situation. They're selling out now before Peyton is gone. Thirdly, every single team starts a "Paris Lenon" somewhere on their 22. Lastly, if your idea is to sign a couple big FAs then fill in with garbage players...I couldn't disagree anymore.

We're all frustrated we're not winning SB after SB and we see that we avoid FA and we assume that HAS to be it. Nevermind the fact it's pretty hard to win a SB. There's a team in it this year that's never done it once in what like 40 years?
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deathstar


Joined: 06 Jun 2012
Posts: 487
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralFC wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
The DL is tough guys. By far the highest bust rate on a skills group after QB. The jump to the NFL is HUGE there. NFL OL are very well coached and will hold the hell out of ya. Also why I will never be a fan of small school DL.

Anyway, every team in the league has a few that did not pan out for them on the DL. You need to keep swinging at the position though. History would say the odds of finding a real stud on the DL late in the draft is next to impossible. How many HOF DL in NFL history were very high draft picks? Damn near all of them! How many late round/UDFA DL have even been starters in the history of the league. Sadly, very few!


So value in round one skyrockets partially because of bust rate. That's very interesting. I never thought of it in that perspective.

So when we "rank players," are the defensive linemen actually as talented (example of Clowney being top three in this class overall) as their ranking indicates, or is it their ranking relative to the rest of position that is composed intoto the bigger picture? Because someone like Bridgewater might be "better" than Clowney, but Clowney will be much better than an average defensive linemen. I don't know if that makes sense...probably doesn't.


Probably take a look at Shariff Floyd from this past draft. Much better than a lot of UTs but compared to the rest of the players, NFL GMs didn't value him much.
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gizmo2012


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2623
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Packers need a couple of pieces and they need to see improvement in some recent draft picks.
Datone Jones - jury is still out, athletic and likely will play better in his 2nd year.
Mike Daniels - had a good year and is a keeper.
Johnny Jolly - when he got hurt it made a significant difference so the hope is TT resigns him.
Ryan Pickett - played ok early in the year but faded badly, he could perhaps be effective in spot duty.
BJ Raji - rated 3rd worst starting DE in the NFL, too slow to play 5 technique DE and too unmotivated to be consistent. Raji believes he is worth more than he is.
Josh Boyd - played pretty well when he had the chance, likely not starter material but a good rotational guy.
CJ Wilson - my opinion is he should have had more playing time so I don't know what was going on there.
Jerel Worthy - probably never really got into football shape so he is a question mark and a big fat incomplete. I suspect he will be better next year but how much better who knows.
Mike Neal - head scratcher on why he was moved to OLB but the guy is a good football player and is worth keeping if the money is right.


Conclusion - with Raji and Pickett in the game team speed issues were painfully obvious, add to that slow ILB's, average to poor safeties, and starting OLB's hurt a chunk of the year and you have the Packers 2013 defense. What was painfully obvious watching the Seahawks and 49ers go at it was team speed on defense compared to Green Bay, that must be addressed and you don't do that by doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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SE500


Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 511
Location: WISCONSIN
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" Not enough money ? Figure it out - everyone else does. Hmmm Denver and Seattle. ....... Maybe its better to have bargain basement guys along with stars, rather than whatever we are doing ?"


What we are doing? You mean like being a playoff team 6 of the last years? Playoffs 5 of the last 5 years WITH a Superbowl trophy in that time? You mean like that? How many teams have done better? Only a couple of teams compare with our success in the last decade. Yes, we need to keep on doing what we are doing.

Every team has weaknesses. How long have San Fran and Seattle been on top of the game? How short is your memory? Parity RULES the NFL, no team is meant to dominate for long by design. Teams are supposed to cycle. Green Bay has done an incredible job combatting that thought.

I think we'll see improvement in D. Jones, Worthy, and Boyd. We'll add some help, and I believe we either sign Pickett or Raji. Jolly if healthy. We need to improve the middle of our defense, not just the line. I don't think that's a secret.
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Kampman74


Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6600
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
The DL is tough guys. By far the highest bust rate on a skills group after QB. The jump to the NFL is HUGE there. NFL OL are very well coached and will hold the hell out of ya. Also why I will never be a fan of small school DL.

Anyway, every team in the league has a few that did not pan out for them on the DL. You need to keep swinging at the position though. History would say the odds of finding a real stud on the DL late in the draft is next to impossible. How many HOF DL in NFL history were very high draft picks? Damn near all of them! How many late round/UDFA DL have even been starters in the history of the league. Sadly, very few!


I also think the jury is still very much out on Datone and Worthy. Next season will be the one to really judge these guys.
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deathstar


Joined: 06 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone else wonder how Worthy would do at NT?
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spilltray


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deathstar wrote:
Anyone else wonder how Worthy would do at NT?


I don't see Worthy as a plugger type. He might be able to do it, but it would take away a bit of what makes him a potentially dynamic player.
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deathstar


Joined: 06 Jun 2012
Posts: 487
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
deathstar wrote:
Anyone else wonder how Worthy would do at NT?


I don't see Worthy as a plugger type. He might be able to do it, but it would take away a bit of what makes him a potentially dynamic player.


I guess I see those wide shoulders and body, the stout base, and think NT. Like MM said about Lang before he moved to Guard full time.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Posts: 4621
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deathstar wrote:
spilltray wrote:
deathstar wrote:
Anyone else wonder how Worthy would do at NT?


I don't see Worthy as a plugger type. He might be able to do it, but it would take away a bit of what makes him a potentially dynamic player.


I guess I see those wide shoulders and body, the stout base, and think NT. Like MM said about Lang before he moved to Guard full time.



He's not particularly stout for a 300 pounder. He's 30 pounds away from even being able to consider it.
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mikemike778


Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 219
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neal isn't obviously wasn't a bust - would probably Grade out at about C- as a draft pick but unless you have a home run or bust mentality then he's obviously not a bust ... comparison to Brohm is just lol.

Late round picks are always hit and miss .. there's only Harrell who was a genuine bust and even that was down to injury.

Not sure you can keep swinging at the position otherwise everything else will suffer.
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Kampman74


Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6600
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gizmo2012 wrote:
The Packers need a couple of pieces and they need to see improvement in some recent draft picks.
Datone Jones - jury is still out, athletic and likely will play better in his 2nd year.
Mike Daniels - had a good year and is a keeper.
Johnny Jolly - when he got hurt it made a significant difference so the hope is TT resigns him.
Ryan Pickett - played ok early in the year but faded badly, he could perhaps be effective in spot duty.
BJ Raji - rated 3rd worst starting DE in the NFL, too slow to play 5 technique DE and too unmotivated to be consistent. Raji believes he is worth more than he is.
Josh Boyd - played pretty well when he had the chance, likely not starter material but a good rotational guy.
CJ Wilson - my opinion is he should have had more playing time so I don't know what was going on there.
Jerel Worthy - probably never really got into football shape so he is a question mark and a big fat incomplete. I suspect he will be better next year but how much better who knows.
Mike Neal - head scratcher on why he was moved to OLB but the guy is a good football player and is worth keeping if the money is right.




Very good post. Forgot Worthy, but pretty much summed up what I was going to say. We are a NT away from having our front three. Daniels is a DE and so is Datone (he will have take the next step next year). Two DE with decent depth with Worthy and Boyd. Maybe Jolly or Pickett factor into next year on cheaper deals and depending on health.
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AlexGreen#20


Joined: 13 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kampman74 wrote:
gizmo2012 wrote:
The Packers need a couple of pieces and they need to see improvement in some recent draft picks.
Datone Jones - jury is still out, athletic and likely will play better in his 2nd year.
Mike Daniels - had a good year and is a keeper.
Johnny Jolly - when he got hurt it made a significant difference so the hope is TT resigns him.
Ryan Pickett - played ok early in the year but faded badly, he could perhaps be effective in spot duty.
BJ Raji - rated 3rd worst starting DE in the NFL, too slow to play 5 technique DE and too unmotivated to be consistent. Raji believes he is worth more than he is.
Josh Boyd - played pretty well when he had the chance, likely not starter material but a good rotational guy.
CJ Wilson - my opinion is he should have had more playing time so I don't know what was going on there.
Jerel Worthy - probably never really got into football shape so he is a question mark and a big fat incomplete. I suspect he will be better next year but how much better who knows.
Mike Neal - head scratcher on why he was moved to OLB but the guy is a good football player and is worth keeping if the money is right.




Very good post. Forgot Worthy, but pretty much summed up what I was going to say. We are a NT away from having our front three. Daniels is a DE and so is Datone (he will have take the next step next year). Two DE with decent depth with Worthy and Boyd. Maybe Jolly or Pickett factor into next year on cheaper deals and depending on health.


You've got a huge chunk of chips sitting on Jones developing, and not just developing but developing in a certain way. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that.
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Kampman74


Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:

You've got a huge chunk of chips sitting on Jones developing, and not just developing but developing in a certain way. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that.


But how would that be any different than any other first round pick in any year? How can we say that Datone is a bust at this point in time? Our rookies similar to the Pats and a few other teams rookies don't even play that much their first year. I mean I am no expert by any means, but how can one tell what this team wanted out of Datone his first season and that he cannot improve on some things his second season?
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DavidatMIZZOU


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at our FAs, anyone else think we might keep Wilson? I see almost universally in mock off-seasons that we let him walk. But he should be pretty easy to sign. He is a solid role player that I think got lost in the shuffle this season. He will be significantly cheaper to retain than Raji or Pickett and probably Jolly.
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My god it must be so terrible to have three teams that consistently make the playoffs
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