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The Turner Effect: what will our offense look like?
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: The Turner Effect: what will our offense look like? Reply with quote

After posting my quick snippet on the Coryell offense in the coaching thread, I was planning on making a more comprehensive post and then I found a GREAT article by our very own Arid Hasan that does an excellent job of describing how it will fit in Minnesota. The entire thing can be found Here

Quote:
The quarterback in the Air Coryell system needed to have a quick release and be decisive. Rarely did Coryell coordinators want their quarterbacks to extend plays (until Jason Garrett and Tony Romo came along) and instead read the defense before the snap and throw at the break. They didn't often pump fake because they got rid of the ball at the end of their drop. The offense revolved around the quarterback throwing off the plant of the last step of his drop, and the majority of the passes worked off of that.

Another quality, simultaneously underrated and overrated among fans and analysts, is the strength of the arm. There isn't an extremely high bar for arm strength as quarterbacks, even in deep passing offenses, rarely throw the ball over 35 yards in the air or need to throw deep with more velocity than touch, but it's still more of a need in this system than in others.

the best option could be Derek Carr who has the arm strength and intelligence to really wow in a Coryell offense, although he will both need to spend more time under center (he claims this will be no issue, though that is hardly a surprise) to prove he has the footwork necessary.

Aside from a quarterback, Air Coryell offenses typically had a few elements: 1) A tall receiver who can win downfield 2) A fullback who could catch, lead block and act as a pass protector 3) A short-yardage running back 4) A pass-protecting offensive line that can keep a pocket for seven-step drops and 5) A pass-catching tight end that can attack the seam.

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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
For those who may not be familiar, here is the typical route tree for the Air Coryell offensive system, even numbers are typically in breaking routes and odd numbers are out breaking routes.

The only difference in this tree is that the hitch, typically in turning, is an odd number, and the pivot or whip route to the outside, is an even number.






So a play with 21 personnel could be called like this

Split Right 545 F Post

Split right indicates split backs with the tight end on the right side of the formation

Arrow The X receiver, on the left of the formation, runs a comeback (5)

Arrow The Y receiver, the tight end in the right, runs a 10-12 yard in with an in breaking release. Depth depends on the depth of the linebackers. (4)

Arrow The Z receiver, off the line on the right, runs a comeback (5)

Arrow The fullback, typically on the TE side of the formation in a split back, runs the backfield post at 5 or 10 yards, right into the space vacated by the player covering the TE. (F Post)

The end result...

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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Quote:
The most famous (and most-often called) play in the Coryell playbook is the 525 Post Swing. In the 525 F Post Swing, both outside receivers run "5" routes (15-yard comebacks) while the tight end runs the "20" route—a shallow cross. Reading the routes" 5-20-5, or 525. The "F" runs a post to the middle and reads the deep safety. The final eligible receiver (usually a fullback) would run a swing route.


http://www.dailynorseman.com/2014/1/22/5331384/norv-turner-the-chinese-room-and-israeli-prisons-minnesota-vikings-offensive-coordinator
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[UMN]


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) A tall receiver who can win downfield --- No
2) A fullback who could catch, lead block and act as a pass protector --- Yes, Ellison
3) A short-yardage running back --- Yes, Peterson
4) A pass-protecting offensive line that can keep a pocket for seven-step drops --- Yes
5) A pass-catching tight end that can attack the seam --- Yes, Rudolph

I would love a combo of Carr and Jordan Matthews to complete the offense.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking someone like a Martavis Bryant in the middle rounds. I'm thinking that Matthews may be gone by our 2nd round and I question his ability to separate down the field.

He's also been dropping the ball quite a bit this week.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best aspect of this offense is it's simplicity. We all remember how long it took Patterson to reportedly get into the play book because they wanted him to know all the receiver positions. Now, he simply has to memorize a numbering system and he can play from any receiver position on the field.

Quote:
A big part of that was the introduction of numbered terminology to designate passing routes. He wasn't the first to use numbered routes, but he was one of the first to implement a varied and consistent passing attack using a numbered system.

It did a few things: first, it made the system absurdly easy to teach to new players. This was critical, as Coryell didn't have them for very long (often a year or two at best) and would have them come dribbling in at odd times—initially independent, they didn't have to worry about transfer rules (which were enforced at the conference level) and could grab players that were cut partway through training or even early in the season and bring them into the system, getting them ready to play in literally days.


http://www.dailynorseman.com/2014/1/22/5331384/norv-turner-the-chinese-room-and-israeli-prisons-minnesota-vikings-offensive-coordinator
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Turner's offense, i think it is a great fit for Peterson, Patterson, Rudolph, and Zimmer's defense.

Two glaring weaknesses though:

1) A need for a big vertical receiver
2) QB with a strong arm to push the ball down field.

MN does not have #1.

MN has a stop gap for #2 in Matt Cassel.

MN should target WRs after round 1, Greg Childs or Rodney Smith likely cant be relied on at this point.

As for a pass receiving FB that can block, Jerome Felton can be that player. Felton has shown to have pretty good hands when given an opportunity. I am not sure why he needs to be replaced, outside of monetary reasons. He is a superior lead blocker compared to Ellison and his hands are probably just as good. Ellison is more nimble though and a better athlete.

If a QB prospect does not have a strong arm, they probably wont be considered at this point.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on where he positions himself, I like Brandon Coleman from Rutgers for Norv's offense.
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VIKINGS101011


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the first quote in the OP Garrapolo doesn't sound like that bad of a fit for it
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A seven step drop would be what, around 4-5 seconds? Do you think our line can protect that long? A QB should always have an internal clock to know when to get rid of the ball. Especially in our division with this as many interior/edge rushes it has.

Also Carr comes from a spread/shotgun offense. I don't think I've ever seen a QB come from that type of system in college and be successful. What makes you think Carr can be successful in this system?
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
He (Felton) is a superior lead blocker compared to Ellison and his hands are probably just as good. Ellison is more nimble though and a better athlete.

PFF disagrees.

Ellison grades out better in run blocking and pass pro over the last two years. Although the run blocking numbers are pretty close.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
He (Felton) is a superior lead blocker compared to Ellison and his hands are probably just as good. Ellison is more nimble though and a better athlete.

PFF disagrees.

Ellison grades out better in run blocking and pass pro over the last two years. Although the run blocking numbers are pretty close.


Is the sample size even reliable? Ellison barely played last year and it seemed he mostly played at TE after Carlson and Rudolph went down.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

twslhs20 wrote:
Also Carr comes from a spread/shotgun offense. I don't think I've ever seen a QB come from that type of system in college and be successful. What makes you think Carr can be successful in this system?


Good arm strength
Quick, compact delivery
High football IQ
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
rpmwr19 wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
He (Felton) is a superior lead blocker compared to Ellison and his hands are probably just as good. Ellison is more nimble though and a better athlete.

PFF disagrees.

Ellison grades out better in run blocking and pass pro over the last two years. Although the run blocking numbers are pretty close.


Is the sample size even reliable? Ellison barely played last year and it seemed he mostly played at TE after Carlson and Rudolph went down.

Ellison played 8 less snaps than Felton last year. You're right that the majority of Ellison's snaps came at tight end though.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds like we need to bring back Daunte Culpepper and Randy Moss.
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