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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:

Not you but some people here have Garopollo over Carr. But not that it matters as I don't see a franchise QB in this draft. The Raiders may be forced to draft one but I'm not floored by any of them. I'm frustrated by the Raiders snake-bitten luck. The Raiders have two glaring needs 43 DE and QB and have little chance at either. What an anomaly.


While I like him more, I'm hoping we do not draft any QB this draft. Not only do we need other positions more but like you said, I don't see a franchise QB in this draft aside from Teddy and even he's pretty overrated.
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Chali21


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
NickButera wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Finally, the media is comparing this draft to the 2011 QB class sans Cam. It's a weak class and it's anticipated that many QBs will be overdrafted like Ponder, Gabbert and Locker were in 2011 (So much for "desperately reaching because you have to have one" theory or the "all franchise QBs were drafted in the 1st theory", Keap 2nd, Wilson 3rd, Manning 1st, Brady 6th.How'd that work out?).

What I don't understand is that if this is a weak QB class and Carr by consensus was consistently the best prospect there . . . . what does that say about Garopollo (although he was considered 2nd best) and why are we still talking about him? Ultimately aren't we just debating who is the least stinkiest?


Even in a bad draft for QB's, Kaep was found in round 2. I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.


If it wasn't for his scrambling ability, people would seriously question Kaep's future as a starting QB by now. Admittedly, i haven't watch every 9ers game but in those i saw, his running is what made him worthy of being on the field.


Same could be said of Cam Newton, if he didn't have all that potential he'd be considered a bust. He has great size, alethletsim, and a strong arm, because he has those things people are willing to over look the erratic accuracy. You can't over look the fact that Kaep helped his team get to the championship game two years in a row.I know Sanchez did the same but he didn't have 50+ rushing yards per game. Is Kaep perfect or Elite? No but he has a great foundation and one of the better coaches to train him, and that's what matters. Make no mistake it's all on him that they aren't in the super bowl again, however if Pryor had his arm I think many people might be leaning more to keeping him another season.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

Not you but some people here have Garopollo over Carr. But not that it matters as I don't see a franchise QB in this draft. The Raiders may be forced to draft one but I'm not floored by any of them. I'm frustrated by the Raiders snake-bitten luck. The Raiders have two glaring needs 43 DE and QB and have little chance at either. What an anomaly.


While I like him more, I'm hoping we do not draft any QB this draft. Not only do we need other positions more but like you said, I don't see a franchise QB in this draft aside from Teddy and even he's pretty overrated.


As someone else said "franchise" is a relative term. There is rarely a sure thing Andrew Luck type in the draft. Every other QB needs work in some form or another.

Bortles, Carr, Teddy, Manziel, etc. all have skills they can build around.

Right now the Raiders have nothing at QB to build around. I know you and others buy into McGloin, but I don't see the upside.

And there is no position a team need more than QB. You either have one and compete or you are a bottom feeder with no QB.
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Chali21


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

Not you but some people here have Garopollo over Carr. But not that it matters as I don't see a franchise QB in this draft. The Raiders may be forced to draft one but I'm not floored by any of them. I'm frustrated by the Raiders snake-bitten luck. The Raiders have two glaring needs 43 DE and QB and have little chance at either. What an anomaly.


While I like him more, I'm hoping we do not draft any QB this draft. Not only do we need other positions more but like you said, I don't see a franchise QB in this draft aside from Teddy and even he's pretty overrated.


As someone else said "franchise" is a relative term. There is rarely a sure thing Andrew Luck type in the draft. Every other QB needs work in some form or another.

Bortles, Carr, Teddy, Manziel, etc. all have skills they can build around.

Right now the Raiders have nothing at QB to build around. I know you and others buy into McGloin, but I don't see the upside.

And there is no position a team need more than QB. You either have one and compete or you are a bottom feeder with no QB.


I think McGloin has a Alex Smith like ceiling, which isn't terrible. I don't think he'll ever be elite but I think the guy can make plays. As you've said before he has moxie and plays with a chip on his shoulder which is a pretty good trait for a QB. I also think there are some QBs in this class that are better than him: Bortles, Bridgewater, Carr, Grap. However I can't justify passing on a Clowney in the first or a Ford the second in favor of one of these guys. The last thing I want is our team reaching for a QB because we just NEED a QB. I can roll with McGloin on a one year trial if worse came to worse.

Truth of the matter is our defense is in way worse shape than our offense, and as Manning, Rodgers, Brees, and even Brady to an extent have shown you can't win a Championship without a good defense.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickButera wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Finally, the media is comparing this draft to the 2011 QB class sans Cam. It's a weak class and it's anticipated that many QBs will be overdrafted like Ponder, Gabbert and Locker were in 2011 (So much for "desperately reaching because you have to have one" theory or the "all franchise QBs were drafted in the 1st theory", Keap 2nd, Wilson 3rd, Manning 1st, Brady 6th.How'd that work out?).

What I don't understand is that if this is a weak QB class and Carr by consensus was consistently the best prospect there . . . . what does that say about Garopollo (although he was considered 2nd best) and why are we still talking about him? Ultimately aren't we just debating who is the least stinkiest?


Even in a bad draft for QB's, Kaep was found in round 2. I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.


+1

Absolutely agree. What we are discussing (I thought) was "inventing a QB because we need one" as Polian warned us NOT to do at the Senior bowl and even then draft a guy because the draft came to you and you stuck to your price. If the Raiders feel like Carr is a 2nd rounder then that's where they should draft him. period. Notice how when Sea, SF & NE got their bargain they weren't in the market for a QB? (Flynn, Smith, Bledsoe)

Preying on the desperation of the poor is why the poor stay poor. If the front office can't come up with a creative way to address the QB position other than to desperately throw draft picks at it then good riddance.
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OakleyCap


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickButera wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Finally, the media is comparing this draft to the 2011 QB class sans Cam. It's a weak class and it's anticipated that many QBs will be overdrafted like Ponder, Gabbert and Locker were in 2011 (So much for "desperately reaching because you have to have one" theory or the "all franchise QBs were drafted in the 1st theory", Keap 2nd, Wilson 3rd, Manning 1st, Brady 6th.How'd that work out?).

What I don't understand is that if this is a weak QB class and Carr by consensus was consistently the best prospect there . . . . what does that say about Garopollo (although he was considered 2nd best) and why are we still talking about him? Ultimately aren't we just debating who is the least stinkiest?


Even in a bad draft for QB's, Kaep was found in round 2. I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.


That is true. And I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on a guy in round two that has elite physical attributes, but I just don't really see any prospect that has the same tools as Kaepernick that'll be available in this years draft in any round let alone later on in the draft.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
NickButera wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Finally, the media is comparing this draft to the 2011 QB class sans Cam. It's a weak class and it's anticipated that many QBs will be overdrafted like Ponder, Gabbert and Locker were in 2011 (So much for "desperately reaching because you have to have one" theory or the "all franchise QBs were drafted in the 1st theory", Keap 2nd, Wilson 3rd, Manning 1st, Brady 6th.How'd that work out?).

What I don't understand is that if this is a weak QB class and Carr by consensus was consistently the best prospect there . . . . what does that say about Garopollo (although he was considered 2nd best) and why are we still talking about him? Ultimately aren't we just debating who is the least stinkiest?


Even in a bad draft for QB's, Kaep was found in round 2. I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.


+1

Absolutely agree. What we are discussing (I thought) was "inventing a QB because we need one" as Polian warned us NOT to do at the Senior bowl and even then draft a guy because the draft came to you and you stuck to your price. If the Raiders feel like Carr is a 2nd rounder then that's where they should draft him. period. Notice how when Sea, SF & NE got their bargain they weren't in the market for a QB? (Flynn, Smith, Bledsoe)

Preying on the desperation of the poor is why the poor stay poor. If the front office can't come up with a creative way to address the QB position other than to desperately throw draft picks at it then good riddance.


The front office is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They either reach for a QB and hope for the best or go with one of the alternatives (FA or mid round rookie) wich is likely to bring a below average starting QB at best. As a fan, the easy answer is don't ever reach for anyone. When your job is on the line, it's a bit more complicated.
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RaiderX


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

Not you but some people here have Garopollo over Carr. But not that it matters as I don't see a franchise QB in this draft. The Raiders may be forced to draft one but I'm not floored by any of them. I'm frustrated by the Raiders snake-bitten luck. The Raiders have two glaring needs 43 DE and QB and have little chance at either. What an anomaly.


While I like him more, I'm hoping we do not draft any QB this draft. Not only do we need other positions more but like you said, I don't see a franchise QB in this draft aside from Teddy and even he's pretty overrated.


As someone else said "franchise" is a relative term. There is rarely a sure thing Andrew Luck type in the draft. Every other QB needs work in some form or another.

Bortles, Carr, Teddy, Manziel, etc. all have skills they can build around.

Right now the Raiders have nothing at QB to build around. I know you and others buy into McGloin, but I don't see the upside.

And there is no position a team need more than QB. You either have one and compete or you are a bottom feeder with no QB.


I think the thing you look for in a QB right now is his mind and how he absorbs information. Easy to teach and can he make all the throws. Then you start to look at the skills, measurables, etc. Definitely stay away from guys like Boyd, Morris, Thomas, etc.

The best QB out of this draft in 2-3 years will be Derek Carr IMO. Not a sure fire thing but his skills and leadership qualities are the potential that set him apart.

I like Garoppolo alot. He's impressing scouts, coaches, etc. I can understand if people aren't comfortable with his level of competition and that he doesn't have a cannon for an arm. He can make all the throws though and his release, and fast learning abiliity are what impresses me most. I think he could have early success.

Worst part out of all of this is not having a vet QB the past year. These QBs need some time to sit back and observe and work on their mechanics. Its bad timing all around especially with no Andrew Lucks growing on trees.
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TiberiusRising


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the thing on Garrapolo like you said and I have been saying for a while now before the bowl games. He processes information and training much faster than most if not all QBs this year. Heck he learned two different offenses in a weeks period of time, the second one on last minute notice and still was effective against better competition. This is all in addition to his good mechanics and quick release.

Maybe not for everyone but for our team it would be a refreshing change.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaiderX wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

Not you but some people here have Garopollo over Carr. But not that it matters as I don't see a franchise QB in this draft. The Raiders may be forced to draft one but I'm not floored by any of them. I'm frustrated by the Raiders snake-bitten luck. The Raiders have two glaring needs 43 DE and QB and have little chance at either. What an anomaly.


While I like him more, I'm hoping we do not draft any QB this draft. Not only do we need other positions more but like you said, I don't see a franchise QB in this draft aside from Teddy and even he's pretty overrated.


As someone else said "franchise" is a relative term. There is rarely a sure thing Andrew Luck type in the draft. Every other QB needs work in some form or another.

Bortles, Carr, Teddy, Manziel, etc. all have skills they can build around.

Right now the Raiders have nothing at QB to build around. I know you and others buy into McGloin, but I don't see the upside.

And there is no position a team need more than QB. You either have one and compete or you are a bottom feeder with no QB.


I think the thing you look for in a QB right now is his mind and how he absorbs information. Easy to teach and can he make all the throws. Then you start to look at the skills, measurables, etc. Definitely stay away from guys like Boyd, Morris, Thomas, etc.

The best QB out of this draft in 2-3 years will be Derek Carr IMO. Not a sure fire thing but his skills and leadership qualities are the potential that set him apart.

I like Garoppolo alot. He's impressing scouts, coaches, etc. I can understand if people aren't comfortable with his level of competition and that he doesn't have a cannon for an arm. He can make all the throws though and his release, and fast learning abiliity are what impresses me most. I think he could have early success.

Worst part out of all of this is not having a vet QB the past year. These QBs need some time to sit back and observe and work on their mechanics. Its bad timing all around especially with no Andrew Lucks growing on trees.



In looking at a QB you should want him to do all the necessary QB skills at a 6/10 level and then for elite prospects you'd want some areas where he'd grade as a 8/10 or above. That's not Carr. Immediately his terrible footwork moves him out of that bracket and is what pushes him to a second rounder at best.
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TiberiusRising


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

Not you but some people here have Garopollo over Carr. But not that it matters as I don't see a franchise QB in this draft. The Raiders may be forced to draft one but I'm not floored by any of them. I'm frustrated by the Raiders snake-bitten luck. The Raiders have two glaring needs 43 DE and QB and have little chance at either. What an anomaly.


While I like him more, I'm hoping we do not draft any QB this draft. Not only do we need other positions more but like you said, I don't see a franchise QB in this draft aside from Teddy and even he's pretty overrated.


As someone else said "franchise" is a relative term. There is rarely a sure thing Andrew Luck type in the draft. Every other QB needs work in some form or another.

Bortles, Carr, Teddy, Manziel, etc. all have skills they can build around.

Right now the Raiders have nothing at QB to build around. I know you and others buy into McGloin, but I don't see the upside.

And there is no position a team need more than QB. You either have one and compete or you are a bottom feeder with no QB.


I think the thing you look for in a QB right now is his mind and how he absorbs information. Easy to teach and can he make all the throws. Then you start to look at the skills, measurables, etc. Definitely stay away from guys like Boyd, Morris, Thomas, etc.

The best QB out of this draft in 2-3 years will be Derek Carr IMO. Not a sure fire thing but his skills and leadership qualities are the potential that set him apart.

I like Garoppolo alot. He's impressing scouts, coaches, etc. I can understand if people aren't comfortable with his level of competition and that he doesn't have a cannon for an arm. He can make all the throws though and his release, and fast learning abiliity are what impresses me most. I think he could have early success.

Worst part out of all of this is not having a vet QB the past year. These QBs need some time to sit back and observe and work on their mechanics. Its bad timing all around especially with no Andrew Lucks growing on trees.



In looking at a QB you should want him to do all the necessary QB skills at a 6/10 level and then for elite prospects you'd want some areas where he'd grade as a 8/10 or above. That's not Carr. Immediately his terrible footwork moves him out of that bracket and is what pushes him to a second rounder at best.

I agree but with that said we all know teams throw potential factor in there as well which still makes him 1st/2nd guy.

Also what moves Garrapolo to 2nd/3rd round in your opinion? Is it just the competition and the lack of 40-70 yard bombs?
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TiberiusRising wrote:
Raidin wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

Not you but some people here have Garopollo over Carr. But not that it matters as I don't see a franchise QB in this draft. The Raiders may be forced to draft one but I'm not floored by any of them. I'm frustrated by the Raiders snake-bitten luck. The Raiders have two glaring needs 43 DE and QB and have little chance at either. What an anomaly.


While I like him more, I'm hoping we do not draft any QB this draft. Not only do we need other positions more but like you said, I don't see a franchise QB in this draft aside from Teddy and even he's pretty overrated.


As someone else said "franchise" is a relative term. There is rarely a sure thing Andrew Luck type in the draft. Every other QB needs work in some form or another.

Bortles, Carr, Teddy, Manziel, etc. all have skills they can build around.

Right now the Raiders have nothing at QB to build around. I know you and others buy into McGloin, but I don't see the upside.

And there is no position a team need more than QB. You either have one and compete or you are a bottom feeder with no QB.


I think the thing you look for in a QB right now is his mind and how he absorbs information. Easy to teach and can he make all the throws. Then you start to look at the skills, measurables, etc. Definitely stay away from guys like Boyd, Morris, Thomas, etc.

The best QB out of this draft in 2-3 years will be Derek Carr IMO. Not a sure fire thing but his skills and leadership qualities are the potential that set him apart.

I like Garoppolo alot. He's impressing scouts, coaches, etc. I can understand if people aren't comfortable with his level of competition and that he doesn't have a cannon for an arm. He can make all the throws though and his release, and fast learning abiliity are what impresses me most. I think he could have early success.

Worst part out of all of this is not having a vet QB the past year. These QBs need some time to sit back and observe and work on their mechanics. Its bad timing all around especially with no Andrew Lucks growing on trees.



In looking at a QB you should want him to do all the necessary QB skills at a 6/10 level and then for elite prospects you'd want some areas where he'd grade as a 8/10 or above. That's not Carr. Immediately his terrible footwork moves him out of that bracket and is what pushes him to a second rounder at best.

I agree but with that said we all know teams throw potential factor in there as well which still makes him 1st/2nd guy.

Also what moves Garrapolo to 2nd/3rd round in your opinion? Is it just the competition and the lack of 40-70 yard bombs?



If that's directed at me I haven't actually watched any thing of Garrapolo yet. From what I've read about his pro an cons he doesn't seem like a huge improvement on McGloin though.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to pick on you Raidin, but I'm sure most others share your sentiment as well (I know S&B does), but if Gaoppolo looks like a 2nd-3rd round prospect but shares a similar game to McGloin, we can basically debate that McGloin also should have been a 2nd-3rd round prospect. If you have a 2nd-3rd rounder go out and perform like McGloin did last year, why are we even discussing getting a new QB?? Wouldn't we be encouraged by this and say "build the team around him"??

I know I would.... and I am. It certainly won't hurt anything b/c it's not like we're going to be top contenders anyway next season.
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Rolni


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
NickButera wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Finally, the media is comparing this draft to the 2011 QB class sans Cam. It's a weak class and it's anticipated that many QBs will be overdrafted like Ponder, Gabbert and Locker were in 2011 (So much for "desperately reaching because you have to have one" theory or the "all franchise QBs were drafted in the 1st theory", Keap 2nd, Wilson 3rd, Manning 1st, Brady 6th.How'd that work out?).

What I don't understand is that if this is a weak QB class and Carr by consensus was consistently the best prospect there . . . . what does that say about Garopollo (although he was considered 2nd best) and why are we still talking about him? Ultimately aren't we just debating who is the least stinkiest?


Even in a bad draft for QB's, Kaep was found in round 2. I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.


+1

Absolutely agree. What we are discussing (I thought) was "inventing a QB because we need one" as Polian warned us NOT to do at the Senior bowl and even then draft a guy because the draft came to you and you stuck to your price. If the Raiders feel like Carr is a 2nd rounder then that's where they should draft him. period. Notice how when Sea, SF & NE got their bargain they weren't in the market for a QB? (Flynn, Smith, Bledsoe)

Preying on the desperation of the poor is why the poor stay poor. If the front office can't come up with a creative way to address the QB position other than to desperately throw draft picks at it then good riddance.


The front office is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They either reach for a QB and hope for the best or go with one of the alternatives (FA or mid round rookie) wich is likely to bring a below average starting QB at best. As a fan, the easy answer is don't ever reach for anyone. When your job is on the line, it's a bit more complicated.


You are right IMO.

RM and DA needs to show some W's, so they need a much better QB play.
If we would been a little bit higher the life of their's would be easier IMO.

They could get Clowney (you can defend that pick against any QB pick) and in the early 2nd get the best QB avaiable.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't possibly see Allen retaining his job after next year. It's going to be another losing season, we have a brutal schedule as of now, and we aren't in any position to compete. He would need an 8-8 season and I doubt any QB will lead us to that. Might as well run w/ McGloin, let him give us that losing season the hire a new head coach who can draft HIS QB the next season. If we draft one this year, lose our coach, who's to say that our next HC will even like the new QB?? Might as well avoid that.....
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