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RoeKG


Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuces22wild wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
djw4bucs wrote:
deuces22wild wrote:
BBando wrote:
^ Good post. I am not a fan of Carr. He runs a very simple offense. Has bad footwork (can be fixed). Also very bad when teams blitz. Reminds me of Gabbert coming out.


Gabbert... Shocked

That is not good.

Besides Teddy every qb has issues and these guys aren't being discussed as mid/late first round early second round guys, they are potentially top ten picks. That scares the heck out of me. Take a Watkins or Robinson or ____ guys with potential to be elite at their respected positions. I don't honestly think that anyone expects or thinks that Bortles or Carr to be the next Brees, Rivers, Luck etc. etc.

Besides Glennons flashes that is also another HUGE reason why I say we should pass this year on a qb.

Agreed next years QB class is very good (if glennon does bad and we want to draft a QB) next year would work
Names like
Winston
Mariota
Hundley
Petty
Some underrated ones
Braxton Miller
Devin Gardner
Kevin Hogan


"Next year's QB class" is always the greatest ever. Then what happens is one guy will tumble to obscurity, another stays in school, and then it'll be, "but NEXT year's QB class will be so good!" It never really is.

Every now and then there is a really spectacular QB class like 2004 or 2012, but it doesn't happen much.


Great points RoeKG, why then though draft a qb who by most is the 4th ranked out of the group in a class that doesn't jump out at anyone?

If we are picking 17 and take a swing at a "Freeman" type guy. Someone that has the tools but has serious questions in a few areas then swing for the fences. But in a deep, solid draft why at 7...

To me it smells like Locker, Tannehill, Ponder type guys that are being pushed why too high because of the position they play.


Well I can't really comment on Carr specifically as I don't know much about him. I trust in DRD though, and while I think Glennon can manage us through games, I don't see him winning any Championships for us. So I see both sides of the discussion on our current QB.

Also I really think that guys like Ponder and Gabbert were obviously desperate picks for bad teams and forced to start before they ever should have. I think Tannehill still can be a good QB and that Locker has made strides before he got hurt, so they may not be failures yet. But yes, reaching on a questionable QB can cost the franchise years that I'm not OK with. If it takes, say 3 years of failure with one guy, then we restart again... guys like McCoy, Williams, Doug Martin, will all be past their primes. We need a QB who can win and we need one now; that's why I posted somewhere else that I want Manziel.

But then again Bortles seems like a solid pick and people have talked about Carr for some time, so maybe it really is a solid QB draft. We won't know for awhile, anyway. I just hope we get it right this time.
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indifference


Joined: 08 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuces22wild wrote:

To me it smells like Locker, Tannehill, Ponder type guys that are being pushed why too high because of the position they play.

That's because you haven't watched the games on Carr or Brotles. Everyone has seen Manziel and Bridgewater before because they play on TV almost weekly.

But you honestly should not compare that QB class to this. Locker was never an accurate QB even in college his completion % was like 58 coming out. Tannehill was a converted WR/QB and only had 1 year of starting at that position and produced. He was drafted because of his upside but was very raw coming out A&M. None of these QB's in 2014 are "raw" passers. They have experience and most importantly have the production(something Locker and Ponder lacked) Ponder had game manager statistics at FSU there was honestly no chance in hell he was going be a star QB at the NFL level.
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deuces22wild


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indifference wrote:
deuces22wild wrote:

To me it smells like Locker, Tannehill, Ponder type guys that are being pushed why too high because of the position they play.

That's because you haven't watched the games on Carr or Brotles. Everyone has seen Manziel and Bridgewater before because they play on TV almost weekly.

But you honestly should not compare that QB class to this. Locker was never an accurate QB even in college his completion % was like 58 coming out. Tannehill was a converted WR/QB and only had 1 year of starting at that position and produced. He was drafted because of his upside but was very raw coming out A&M. None of these QB's in 2014 are "raw" passers. They have experience and most importantly have the production(something Locker and Ponder lacked) Ponder had game manager statistics at FSU there was honestly no chance in hell he was going be a star QB at the NFL level.


I've watched all the qbs I'm commenting about play. "Type guys", I guess I should of explained more.

I'm not comparing anything mentally or physically about these qbs at all. More just a reference that those guys along with others that play qb get pushed way up the board because of the position they play. Pretty much everyone thinks that Bortles should of stayed another year in college. He's not and now he's projected as the third best qb and potential top four pick. Carr has questions about his footwork and mechanics, played out if the gun and a crazy amount of his throws weren't nfl style.

At seven I think guys like Robinson, Watkins, Mack have the upside to potentially be some of the best in the game. I can't say the same about the qb position outside of Teddy and Johnny.

Sorry DRD for focussing so much of your mock on the qb position.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuces22wild wrote:
indifference wrote:
deuces22wild wrote:

To me it smells like Locker, Tannehill, Ponder type guys that are being pushed why too high because of the position they play.

That's because you haven't watched the games on Carr or Brotles. Everyone has seen Manziel and Bridgewater before because they play on TV almost weekly.

But you honestly should not compare that QB class to this. Locker was never an accurate QB even in college his completion % was like 58 coming out. Tannehill was a converted WR/QB and only had 1 year of starting at that position and produced. He was drafted because of his upside but was very raw coming out A&M. None of these QB's in 2014 are "raw" passers. They have experience and most importantly have the production(something Locker and Ponder lacked) Ponder had game manager statistics at FSU there was honestly no chance in hell he was going be a star QB at the NFL level.


I've watched all the qbs I'm commenting about play. "Type guys", I guess I should of explained more.

I'm not comparing anything mentally or physically about these qbs at all. More just a reference that those guys along with others that play qb get pushed way up the board because of the position they play. Pretty much everyone thinks that Bortles should of stayed another year in college. He's not and now he's projected as the third best qb and potential top four pick. Carr has questions about his footwork and mechanics, played out if the gun and a crazy amount of his throws weren't nfl style.

At seven I think guys like Robinson, Watkins, Mack have the upside to potentially be some of the best in the game. I can't say the same about the qb position outside of Teddy and Johnny.

Sorry DRD for focussing so much of your mock on the qb position.


It only makes sense to me that we would focus on the QB position.
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indifference


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get what your trying to get at deuces. But honestly that situation was different if you think about it, NOBODY I mean nobody had Ponder and Locker in their top 10 in January. Carr, Brotles, and Manziel are already receiving top 10 hype and we haven't hit the combine yet. Which means they aren't players being overhyped due to position.
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deuces22wild


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indifference wrote:
I get what your trying to get at deuces. But honestly that situation was different if you think about it, NOBODY I mean nobody had Ponder and Locker in their top 10 in January. Carr, Brotles, and Manziel are already receiving top 10 hype and we haven't hit the combine yet. Which means they aren't players being overhyped due to position.


That is true. I still look at a few of these guys and can't imagine them being the answer to what most of this board is looking for which is an elite qb. It is something that I think we can be chasing forever. Someone mentioned the other week, you don't have a franchise qb you look until you do. So potentially every three years we may be spending our first round pick looking for that elite guy. Or do we building around the qb we have and hope he turns out to be a Joe Flacco, be a Alex Smith, be a Kaepernick or Wilson, a guy that can make things happen here and there while being supported by a stout defense and a strong running game.

I don't see after the "big two" any qbs being elite. I don't know what this split is for Glennon after Teddy and Johnny are off the board 20/80... 30/70 for keeping him then or at least giving him one more season. I just see the guys we will be passing up for bringing a guy in that might not be that much of an upgrade in over Glennon.

I've asked this a few times and nobody has answered... if Tedford is such a guru can he not work with Glennon and bring the beast out of him. "Get the ball to the receivers in space and let them do damage"... does that kind of offense sound like we have to spend $20,000,000 a year on Manning to run it proper. Also throw in that the qbs Teford coached balled out while they were under his wing yet weren't as successful once in the NFL. Does that show that his offense can be run by a "lesser" qb or that he can do that much damage with a lesser qb. If either is yes then why are we spending a top seven pick on another qb?
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Caaddy24


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuces22wild wrote:
indifference wrote:
I get what your trying to get at deuces. But honestly that situation was different if you think about it, NOBODY I mean nobody had Ponder and Locker in their top 10 in January. Carr, Brotles, and Manziel are already receiving top 10 hype and we haven't hit the combine yet. Which means they aren't players being overhyped due to position.


That is true. I still look at a few of these guys and can't imagine them being the answer to what most of this board is looking for which is an elite qb. It is something that I think we can be chasing forever. Someone mentioned the other week, you don't have a franchise qb you look until you do. So potentially every three years we may be spending our first round pick looking for that elite guy. Or do we building around the qb we have and hope he turns out to be a Joe Flacco, be a Alex Smith, be a Kaepernick or Wilson, a guy that can make things happen here and there while being supported by a stout defense and a strong running game.

I don't see after the "big two" any qbs being elite. I don't know what this split is for Glennon after Teddy and Johnny are off the board 20/80... 30/70 for keeping him then or at least giving him one more season. I just see the guys we will be passing up for bringing a guy in that might not be that much of an upgrade in over Glennon.

I've asked this a few times and nobody has answered... if Tedford is such a guru can he not work with Glennon and bring the beast out of him. "Get the ball to the receivers in space and let them do damage"... does that kind of offense sound like we have to spend $20,000,000 a year on Manning to run it proper. Also throw in that the qbs Teford coached balled out while they were under his wing yet weren't as successful once in the NFL. Does that show that his offense can be run by a "lesser" qb or that he can do that much damage with a lesser qb. If either is yes then why are we spending a top seven pick on another qb?


who said Tedford is a QB guru? I feel like every teams new hire is some kind of "guru"... and even if he is we can't just rely on a coach to bring the best out of anybody and be a successful QB
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caaddy24 wrote:
deuces22wild wrote:
indifference wrote:
I get what your trying to get at deuces. But honestly that situation was different if you think about it, NOBODY I mean nobody had Ponder and Locker in their top 10 in January. Carr, Brotles, and Manziel are already receiving top 10 hype and we haven't hit the combine yet. Which means they aren't players being overhyped due to position.


That is true. I still look at a few of these guys and can't imagine them being the answer to what most of this board is looking for which is an elite qb. It is something that I think we can be chasing forever. Someone mentioned the other week, you don't have a franchise qb you look until you do. So potentially every three years we may be spending our first round pick looking for that elite guy. Or do we building around the qb we have and hope he turns out to be a Joe Flacco, be a Alex Smith, be a Kaepernick or Wilson, a guy that can make things happen here and there while being supported by a stout defense and a strong running game.

I don't see after the "big two" any qbs being elite. I don't know what this split is for Glennon after Teddy and Johnny are off the board 20/80... 30/70 for keeping him then or at least giving him one more season. I just see the guys we will be passing up for bringing a guy in that might not be that much of an upgrade in over Glennon.

I've asked this a few times and nobody has answered... if Tedford is such a guru can he not work with Glennon and bring the beast out of him. "Get the ball to the receivers in space and let them do damage"... does that kind of offense sound like we have to spend $20,000,000 a year on Manning to run it proper. Also throw in that the qbs Teford coached balled out while they were under his wing yet weren't as successful once in the NFL. Does that show that his offense can be run by a "lesser" qb or that he can do that much damage with a lesser qb. If either is yes then why are we spending a top seven pick on another qb?


who said Tedford is a QB guru? I feel like every teams new hire is some kind of "guru"... and even if he is we can't just rely on a coach to bring the best out of anybody and be a successful QB


Glennon isn't that quick read/strike qb with a shortened release either. He plays extremely tight.

And honestly I like the addition of Tedford. It's different and creative. Adapts to players strengths and will implement a spread type offense. However I do have questions of coaching up a ton of 1st round busts.

Maybe his offensive scheme hides a qbs deficiancies. To be fair I don't think Carr was a collasal failure. I think the texans oline played a part of it. Now Harrington smith and boller were terrible.

But this day in age with the rebirth of the spread and college type atmosphere I think it can be successful. But I don't see it in glennon to take us to the playoffs. Teams like San Fran and Seattle ride a strong defense. But they both have legit qbs that make big plays to move the offense and score points.

If I'm looking at qbs for this offense I'd say :
- Teddy bridgewater
- Jimmy Garapolo
- Derek Carr

Those 3 are perfect fits IMO for Tedfords offense. We have 3 good rbs one is a pro bowler. We'd be fine. And the oline was much better than many thought without nicks. I think we can replace Joseph by moving Meredith to RG and finding a mauler at lg. If we can replace Zuttah , great. But I'm not breaking the bank for Mack.

I'd like to see us look at Saffold who played very well for St. Louis at G. Adam Snyder.

Michael Johnson/Bennett/Allen at de. I'd prefer to find a decent nickel in FA.

Keep an eye on golden Tate. Probably will not break the bank. A guy I'd love to steal is Dennis Pitta. Well rounded TE. Let's see if Baltimore has the funds to keep him.
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indifference


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuces22wild wrote:
indifference wrote:
I get what your trying to get at deuces. But honestly that situation was different if you think about it, NOBODY I mean nobody had Ponder and Locker in their top 10 in January. Carr, Brotles, and Manziel are already receiving top 10 hype and we haven't hit the combine yet. Which means they aren't players being overhyped due to position.


That is true. I still look at a few of these guys and can't imagine them being the answer to what most of this board is looking for which is an elite qb. It is something that I think we can be chasing forever. Someone mentioned the other week, you don't have a franchise qb you look until you do. So potentially every three years we may be spending our first round pick looking for that elite guy. Or do we building around the qb we have and hope he turns out to be a Joe Flacco, be a Alex Smith, be a Kaepernick or Wilson, a guy that can make things happen here and there while being supported by a stout defense and a strong running game.

I don't see after the "big two" any qbs being elite. I don't know what this split is for Glennon after Teddy and Johnny are off the board 20/80... 30/70 for keeping him then or at least giving him one more season. I just see the guys we will be passing up for bringing a guy in that might not be that much of an upgrade in over Glennon.

I've asked this a few times and nobody has answered... if Tedford is such a guru can he not work with Glennon and bring the beast out of him. "Get the ball to the receivers in space and let them do damage"... does that kind of offense sound like we have to spend $20,000,000 a year on Manning to run it proper. Also throw in that the qbs Teford coached balled out while they were under his wing yet weren't as successful once in the NFL. Does that show that his offense can be run by a "lesser" qb or that he can do that much damage with a lesser qb. If either is yes then why are we spending a top seven pick on another qb?
All good points.

I will say personally, think its unrealistic to find an "elite" QB in every draft. Since in reality there's probably only 3 QB's out 32 teams that are elite I'd like to say its far fetched. So my expectations aren't as high, however, I do believe that you need an above average QB to win games. Most of us aren't looking for an elite QB, we just want a QB that is above average which is realistic to find at our draft position. I agree that only Bridgewater has the readiness to be an "elite" level QB if he pans out everybody else will fall into the very good or mediocre or below average.

Can Glennon win this team games(not managing)? I don't know because its hard to say based off last year. And in the end its up to Tedford to decide. The skill positions were in shambles due to lack of depth but at the same time the Bucs were like top 10 in TO's and our PPG was still below average. We're only spending a top 7 on a QB because we know for a fact that this guy can make plays when the game is close and that's only going to happen when your guy under center is above average. If Glennon had played better in the second half of games, like much better instead of regressing I would not be knocking on the table for a new qb so much.
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klopp24


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have this crazy feeling that we will fall in love with Sammy Watkins and possibly move up to get him. The way Tedford talks with the screens and slants, he would do BIG things for us!....and if we can grab Jimmy in the 2nd Shocked Shocked Shocked watch out...

Im not sold on Carr....Ive watched a lot of film on him. and IMO he stands there like a duck in the pocket. granted he has way more ability then glennon, he doesnt use it to his advantage. Gets rid of the ball fast, but when theres pressure he stands and stands...Maybe im just overlooking it but thats just my opinion. And im not gona lie, being davids brother just scares me lol
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DaRealdeal


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoeKG wrote:
deuces22wild wrote:
Sorry DRD for focussing so much of your mock on the qb position.


It only makes sense to me that we would focus on the QB position.

Yeah, I have no problem with it. It's healthy stuff. This conversation won't go away until the draft is over so I'm cool with it.
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deuces22wild


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caaddy24 wrote:
who said Tedford is a QB guru? I feel like every teams new hire is some kind of "guru".


http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2014/01/02/audio-mike-pawlawski-jeff-tedford-is-a-qb-guru-that-likes-to-run-the-ball/

Quote:
Despite being a QB guru, Pawlawski says Tedford likes to run the ball


https://www.pewterreport.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=9544:&Itemid=15

Quote:
Tedford has made his name in college football as a quarterback guru


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000308852/article/jeff-tedford-hired-to-be-tampa-bay-buccaneers-oc

Quote:
The quarterback guru spent 11 years coaching the University of California


http://www.tampabay.com/sports/football/bucs/bucs-frazier-theres-the-making-of-a-good-defense-here/2161163

Quote:
Known as a quarterback guru, Tedford said Wednesday that he was impressed with the body of work by rookie Mike Glennon.

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ChaoticBuc3125


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Applause Applause
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He Hate Me


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carr getting great reviews at the senior bowl.
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DaRealdeal


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He Hate Me wrote:
Carr getting great reviews at the senior bowl.

Yup. Everything from on the field to off the field has been glowing.

https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout/status/425732848130461696

Quote:
Carr isn't just the best QB here. He's the best player here. Absolutely looks the part of franchise QB.

http://www.pewterreport.com/index.php?option=com_k2&Itemid=20&view=item&layout=item&id=9598

Quote:
Carr plans to extensively meet with Tedford, head coach Lovie Smith, who is not in Mobile, Ala., and the Buccaneers this week and later in the pre-draft process. Carr revealed that Tedford and his brother, David, attended a Fresno State game and spent some time with him in a personal tutoring session after the season.

Tedford and new Bucs quarterbacks coach Marcus Arroyo were in the stands watching the Bulldogs quarterback on Tuesday and briefly met up with former Fresno State head coach Pat Hill, likely to talk about Carr.

The Tedford-Carr link is very strong.
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