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My Case Against Capers and the "no talent" Excuse
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Illustrated


Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: My Case Against Capers and the "no talent" Excuse Reply with quote

- The only time Capers defense was successful was when he had ELITE talent. Look at the ridiculous amount of talent we had in 09/10. Our secondary had 3 All-Pro players at the time in Charles Woodson, Nick Collins, and Tramon Williams. Shields was no slouch as a rookie either, its rare a team will ever have a secondary like that together for any stretch of time. Not to mention Clay and Raji were both in dominating fashion and Cullen Jenkins was giving us pass rush ability to the standard that is rare for a 34 lineman. Yes, teams can assemble talent like this, but its hard when you are paying for an elite QB, and it doesn't stay around forever, you have to be able to put together a solid unit with less than desirable talent.

- When Capers is given less than elite talent he puts out mediocre or downright horrendous defenses. I think people overlook how many teams in the league get by with sub par talent far better than the Packers. Injuries suck but its a thing every team faces, the Patriots are not exactly overflowing with studs on defense and have lost some of their best players, yet are adapting to it far better than the Packers. Teams like New Orleans, Indianapolis, and Tennessee are vastly out performing the Packers unit with talent that is far from great.

- Players in Green Bay's defense generally REGRESS the longer they are in the system and with this coaching staff. We see promising young players come in and then continue to get worse during their tenure. Even "studs" like Raji become just regular guys on the field.

Talent argument aside, these numbers are not acceptable no matter who you have on the field:

2013: 26.5 PPG (24th) Rated 31st in defensive efficiency (PFF)
2011: 23.3 PPG (22nd) Rated 25th in defensive efficiency

2012 was a solid year with the unit 13th in scoring, but isn't much to hang your hat on when you see that the season ended in a game that the 49ers thrashed the defense, dropping 45 points and passing or running at will. Colin Kaepernick had multiple TDs on the ground as well as in the air and rushed for 181 yards. Even more pathetic Frank Gore was able to amass over 100 yards rushing as well.

No coach that puts up these numbers should be off the hot seat, much less lauded by his head coach for the job he does.

Did Capers do a great job in the playoff game this year? Yes. But that far makes up for his failings of the past three seasons.

I'm willing to accept that Capers can produce a better defense with more talent, that only makes sense, but to give him a pass for these performances is crazy. I'm tired of teams breaking records and setting milestones on this defense, most recently Pittsburgh breaking its drought of a 100 yard rusher. We are the defense that allows these things and it's pathetic. Have your standards dropped this low?
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ChaRisMa


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give me a DC who consistently has great defenses with mediocre talent. Not SF, not Seattle, Baltimore and Pitt lost a lot of talent this year, they regressed. Its a simple equation here folks, elite talent gives you elite defense, mediocre talent and youre mediocre and ect...

Defense isnt like offense where an elite guy like Rodgers can give an unknown like Jarrett Boykin the ball in the best situation for him to produce. You are playing one on one, the best guy wins. Capers knows defense, and when our guys are good enough to win our oneon ones, we will be good again.
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Illustrated


Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChaRisMa wrote:
You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.


I place most of the blame on Capers and his staff, which Capers is ultimately responsible for.

It's Capers job to get the most out of what he has on the field, and aside from a few good performances like this January, I just don't see it.
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Illustrated


Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
Give me a DC who consistently has great defenses with mediocre talent. Not SF, not Seattle, Baltimore and Pitt lost a lot of talent this year, they regressed. Its a simple equation here folks, elite talent gives you elite defense, mediocre talent and youre mediocre and ect...

Defense isnt like offense where an elite guy like Rodgers can give an unknown like Jarrett Boykin the ball in the best situation for him to produce. You are playing one on one, the best guy wins. Capers knows defense, and when our guys are good enough to win our oneon ones, we will be good again.


Baltimore was 11th in scoring defense this year and 7th in efficiency.

Pittsburgh was 13th in scoring defense and 20th in efficiency.

While there was some decline, they were still far above the depths our unit has sunk to.

Their decline is now what we consider a great year for our unit.

As far as the one on ones, it's Capers job to put our players in the best position to succeed, and to put our defense in the best scheme for the situation. It's not just line up and whoever has the best talent wins, thats not how football has ever been. Schemes and the coaching and development of players has always been more important.


Last edited by Illustrated on Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illustrated wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
Give me a DC who consistently has great defenses with mediocre talent. Not SF, not Seattle, Baltimore and Pitt lost a lot of talent this year, they regressed. Its a simple equation here folks, elite talent gives you elite defense, mediocre talent and youre mediocre and ect...

Defense isnt like offense where an elite guy like Rodgers can give an unknown like Jarrett Boykin the ball in the best situation for him to produce. You are playing one on one, the best guy wins. Capers knows defense, and when our guys are good enough to win our oneon ones, we will be good again.


Baltimore was 11th in scoring defense this year and 7th in efficiency.

Pittsburgh was 13th in scoring defense and 20th in efficiency.

While there was some decline, they were still far above the depths our unit has sunk to.


Theyre still far above the talent level of us, fact is they lost good players and lost that annual top 5 D status. Defense is a reflection of talent. We simply havent had the talent and health to be elite. A new DC will not change that.
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Illustrated


Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
Illustrated wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
Give me a DC who consistently has great defenses with mediocre talent. Not SF, not Seattle, Baltimore and Pitt lost a lot of talent this year, they regressed. Its a simple equation here folks, elite talent gives you elite defense, mediocre talent and youre mediocre and ect...

Defense isnt like offense where an elite guy like Rodgers can give an unknown like Jarrett Boykin the ball in the best situation for him to produce. You are playing one on one, the best guy wins. Capers knows defense, and when our guys are good enough to win our oneon ones, we will be good again.


Baltimore was 11th in scoring defense this year and 7th in efficiency.

Pittsburgh was 13th in scoring defense and 20th in efficiency.

While there was some decline, they were still far above the depths our unit has sunk to.


Theyre still far above the talent level of us, fact is they lost good players and lost that annual top 5 D status. Defense is a reflection of talent. We simply havent had the talent and health to be elite. A new DC will not change that.


I would give Baltimore a decent edge in talent, but would put the Steelers on the same level as the Packers. The fact is that if we got more out of our talented players like Raji/Tramon/Burnett instead of them playing at their absolute worst levels we would be up near Baltimore as far as talent.

Fact is that Pittsburgh vastly out performed us with at most a minimally more talented unit.
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CornOnDaCobb


Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 465
Location: Tampa, FL
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChaRisMa wrote:
You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.


Yea guys got old, but none of the young players have gotten better at all save maybe Shields. Raji regressed, Burnett regressed, Hawk regressed, Perry hasn't improved, etc. The calling card was definitely the Detroit game when we had everyone healthy and we got absolutely thrashed, there was no excuse for that whatsoever. Capers needs to go now.
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Illustrated


Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CornOnDaCobb wrote:
ChaRisMa wrote:
You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.


Yea guys got old, but none of the young players have gotten better at all save maybe Shields. Raji regressed, Burnett regressed, Hawk regressed, Perry hasn't improved, etc. The


Exactly. None of our players are making leaps, you can go and say all of them are busts if you want, but I'm not buying it. Especially when you see already established players getting worse over time, with nothing to do with age.
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CornOnDaCobb


Joined: 16 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illustrated wrote:
CornOnDaCobb wrote:
ChaRisMa wrote:
You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.


Yea guys got old, but none of the young players have gotten better at all save maybe Shields. Raji regressed, Burnett regressed, Hawk regressed, Perry hasn't improved, etc. The



Exactly. None of our players are making leaps, you can go and say all of them are busts if you want, but I'm not buying it. Especially when you see already established players getting worse over time, with nothing to do with age.


Yep, I think moving to a 4-3 would benefit a lot of our front 4 guys as well so that is against Capers favor as well.
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CornOnDaCobb wrote:
ChaRisMa wrote:
You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.


Yea guys got old, but none of the young players have gotten better at all save maybe Shields. Raji regressed, Burnett regressed, Hawk regressed, Perry hasn't improved, etc. The calling card was definitely the Detroit game when we had everyone healthy and we got absolutely thrashed, there was no excuse for that whatsoever. Capers needs to go now.


Raji is lazy, hes been lazy since TT drafted him, he missed a year of college football due to academics.

Burnett lost an All pro next to him, suddenly hes the guy and hes responsible to put himself in situations to make plays and hes shown he isnt capable.

Hawk hasnt regressed to me, maybe athletically but he is aging.

Im not going to touch Perry, I find it flat dumb how Packers fans doubt him, give him a healthy season.

Mike Daniels has improved tremendously, Jamari Lattimore, Jarrett Bush, too early to say about the young guys like Worthy, Perry, Hayward, Jones ect..
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Illustrated


Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChaRisMa wrote:
You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.


Offense heavy?

In 2012 our first SIX draft picks were on the defensive side of the ball.
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Beast


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 2269
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: My Case Against Capers and the "no talent" Exc Reply with quote

Illustrated wrote:
Talent argument aside, these numbers are not acceptable no matter who you have on the field:

2013: 26.5 PPG (24th)
2011: 23.3 PPG (22nd)

2012 was a solid year with the unit 13th in scoring


Not sure where you got the numbers from but NFL.com numbers look better.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_SCORED&tabSeq=2&season=2012&role=OPP&Submit=Go&archive=true&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&qualified=false


2011: 22.4 PPG (19th)
2012*: 21.0* PPG (11th*)....
2013: 26.8 PPG (24th)


If you have to remember 2012 had the horrible calling on the "fail mary" play which counted because of the horrible refs. If you factor that in it's


2013: 20.6 PPG (9th)


So lets look deeper into this

In 2011 Capers was still running his more aggressive defense that won the Super Bowl, but in 2011, they lost Jenkins, Raji disappeared, Collins and Tramon Williams got injured and Woodson lost a step and they couldn't get pressure or coverage good enough to work.


In 2012 the Packers should of been 9th in points given up if not for the "fail mary". Top 10 defense in points that got caught of guard by the 49ers in the playoffs.


In 2013 Safety play was horrible and Rodgers got injured, and the defense got worse with the back-up QB not keeping offense drives going and then at one point it even looked the like defense totally gave up doing nearly as well.


Packers average per game when Rodgers finished the game would of been 15th in the NFL.

Packers average per game when Rodgers did NOT finish the game would of been 32nd in the NFL.


So the defense played a lot better when the QB didn't suck.


Last edited by Beast on Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Illustrated


Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
CornOnDaCobb wrote:
ChaRisMa wrote:
You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.


Yea guys got old, but none of the young players have gotten better at all save maybe Shields. Raji regressed, Burnett regressed, Hawk regressed, Perry hasn't improved, etc. The calling card was definitely the Detroit game when we had everyone healthy and we got absolutely thrashed, there was no excuse for that whatsoever. Capers needs to go now.


Raji is lazy, hes been lazy since TT drafted him, he missed a year of college football due to academics.

Burnett lost an All pro next to him, suddenly hes the guy and hes responsible to put himself in situations to make plays and hes shown he isnt capable.

Hawk hasnt regressed to me, maybe athletically but he is aging.

Im not going to touch Perry, I find it flat dumb how Packers fans doubt him, give him a healthy season.

Mike Daniels has improved tremendously, Jamari Lattimore, Jarrett Bush, too early to say about the young guys like Worthy, Perry, Hayward, Jones ect..


So let me get this straight. It's the players fault, not the coaches, that whoever we seem to put at outside linebacker besides Clay simply can not defend the correct gaps? It's the players fault, not the coaches, that whoever we seem to put at safety blows coverages consistently? Our scouts have been that terrible that we are just a team full of players with zero football IQ, and despite the all mighty teaching of this coaching staff, it is falling on deaf ears? Not a single player we have brought in came into the league know how to take angles or tackling correctly, and they are not responding to what the staff is telling them?
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spilltray


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illustrated wrote:
ChaRisMa wrote:
You lost Nick Collins to injury. Charles Woodson got old. Pickett got old. Jolly went to jail. Bishop blows an ACL. You had to pay guys that were underpaid. You went offense heavy during drafts prior to 2013. Tramon, Mathews, Perry, Worthy, Shields, Hayward have all missed a ton of time.

I'm tired of hearing about Cullen Jenkins. He's bounced around the league pretty good since we let him walk. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame the defense on a person instead of what it really is: Injuries. Same with the O-line.


Offense heavy?

In 2012 our first SIX draft picks were on the defensive side of the ball.


Nick Perry - A player we know would need a transition who has shown ability when healthy
Jerel Worthy - flashed his rookie year, injured year 2
Casey Hayward - Looked very good his rookie year, injured year 2
Mike Daniels - Solid contributor

There is a reason the saying is "wait 3 years to judge a draft class". Prior to 2012, those were some decidedly offensive heavy drafts and the recent "restockings" should start coming into their own, but have shown promise to this point.

Is it a great defense when healthy? No but i think the talent is there that it should be a solid one. Anything in at least the 8-12 range I'd be happy enough with. With the amount of key injuries this year though, I think they played as well as you could expect. The defense isn't nearly as awful as everyone is making it out to be though and I'm more concerned with the offense moving forward.
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