Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Ceiling for Our WRs:
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Oakland Raiders
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Palooka, 2 things.

1. Less Pressure waits for NOONE at the NFL level. Heisman winner or not, there's not one bit less pressure waiting for the guy in the NFL.

2. Maybe his dad said that without thinking about his draft stock, rather just a father being a father who doesn't want to see his son end up an alcoholic, DWI manslaughter case, in jail, or dead. It's a bit more important if you think about it a moment.


1. I understand. But he can come into the NFL and just be another guy. It sounds like his issues stemmed from college station and the expectations placed on him after one of the best college football seasons in recent memory.

2. The article is from JULY 2013. I'm not putting much stock in it other than his dad maybe trying to give tough love passively. No issues have presented themselves
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 5553
Location: Dublin
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manziel can come into the NFL and just be another guy? Huh? About the same chance of him being just another guy as Tebow.
_________________
raidr4life wrote:
Imagine if EricAllen21 posted better. Just imagine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Palooka, 2 things.

1. Less Pressure waits for NOONE at the NFL level. Heisman winner or not, there's not one bit less pressure waiting for the guy in the NFL.

2. Maybe his dad said that without thinking about his draft stock, rather just a father being a father who doesn't want to see his son end up an alcoholic, DWI manslaughter case, in jail, or dead. It's a bit more important if you think about it a moment.


1. I understand. But he can come into the NFL and just be another guy. It sounds like his issues stemmed from college station and the expectations placed on him after one of the best college football seasons in recent memory.

2. The article is from JULY 2013. I'm not putting much stock in it other than his dad maybe trying to give tough love passively. No issues have presented themselves


Just another guy in the NFL deals with more real pressure than any guy in college. And I mean it when I say ANY. Add money to the mix and it's a whole new ballgame, and there's money in the NFL on a whole lot of levels.

No issues have presented themselves, but we weren't talking about Manziel's issues in that particular convo. It was about why his dad would affect his draft stock by saying it. I was just trying to point out that maybe his dad is more concerned about his son's life than his draft stock. And f it's his dad saying it, I'd say that points to there being issues that go beyond what the media has uncovered. There's nothing like info from the mouths of family when it comes to seeing issues. So yeah, there are issues.

Manziel is a definite risk for the team that takes him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Speed_Wrench


Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 4729
Location: Bay area
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Palooka, 2 things.

1. Less Pressure waits for NOONE at the NFL level. Heisman winner or not, there's not one bit less pressure waiting for the guy in the NFL.

2. Maybe his dad said that without thinking about his draft stock, rather just a father being a father who doesn't want to see his son end up an alcoholic, DWI manslaughter case, in jail, or dead. It's a bit more important if you think about it a moment.


1. I understand. But he can come into the NFL and just be another guy. It sounds like his issues stemmed from college station and the expectations placed on him after one of the best college football seasons in recent memory.

2. The article is from JULY 2013. I'm not putting much stock in it other than his dad maybe trying to give tough love passively. No issues have presented themselves


Just another guy in the NFL deals with more real pressure than any guy in college. And I mean it when I say ANY. Add money to the mix and it's a whole new ballgame, and there's money in the NFL on a whole lot of levels.

No issues have presented themselves, but we weren't talking about Manziel's issues in that particular convo. It was about why his dad would affect his draft stock by saying it. I was just trying to point out that maybe his dad is more concerned about his son's life than his draft stock. And f it's his dad saying it, I'd say that points to there being issues that go beyond what the media has uncovered. There's nothing like info from the mouths of family when it comes to seeing issues. So yeah, there are issues.

Manziel is a definite risk for the team that takes him.


From what I have heard also, is his family is well off so the need to be drafted high to make that huge payday is not so much the case with him, if I were a GM I would take this particular info pretty seriously.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6190
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Palooka, 2 things.

1. Less Pressure waits for NOONE at the NFL level. Heisman winner or not, there's not one bit less pressure waiting for the guy in the NFL.

2. Maybe his dad said that without thinking about his draft stock, rather just a father being a father who doesn't want to see his son end up an alcoholic, DWI manslaughter case, in jail, or dead. It's a bit more important if you think about it a moment.


1. I understand. But he can come into the NFL and just be another guy. It sounds like his issues stemmed from college station and the expectations placed on him after one of the best college football seasons in recent memory.

2. The article is from JULY 2013. I'm not putting much stock in it other than his dad maybe trying to give tough love passively. No issues have presented themselves


Just another guy in the NFL deals with more real pressure than any guy in college. And I mean it when I say ANY. Add money to the mix and it's a whole new ballgame, and there's money in the NFL on a whole lot of levels.

No issues have presented themselves, but we weren't talking about Manziel's issues in that particular convo. It was about why his dad would affect his draft stock by saying it. I was just trying to point out that maybe his dad is more concerned about his son's life than his draft stock. And f it's his dad saying it, I'd say that points to there being issues that go beyond what the media has uncovered. There's nothing like info from the mouths of family when it comes to seeing issues. So yeah, there are issues.

Manziel is a definite risk for the team that takes him.

+1

BP, you have become more concerned with being right than getting it right. A good evaluator has to know when to bail on his evaluation. You are trying to use a line of reasoning that as an NFL QB there will be less scrutiny, less pressure, less frustration for someone by his own dad's admission doesn't deal very well and acts out negatively.

Manziel has often been compared to Wilson. Russel Wilson came in as a 3rd rounder with little pressure to play immediately. A conservative, reserved, religious person who went to sleep in the playbook. Conversely, you believe that Manziel will be able to get his party and stay in his playbook and maintain his body, when he's not drinking of course, all while under the pressure of being a Top 5 draft pick. Why not just do the more logical thing and stay away??
_________________
Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dreadymatt


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 1039
Location: Saturn
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unless Watkins is the best available player when we draft at 5 I wouldn't select a WR in this year's draft, we have planety of youg talent, what we really need is an experienced FA, and there are plenty of talented players available this year (and given the numbers likely available the $'s demanded shouldn't be too high)

e.g. Jacoby jones, James jones, Hakeen Nicks, Kenny Britt, and many more
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:

+1

BP, you have become more concerned with being right than getting it right. A good evaluator has to know when to bail on his evaluation. You are trying to use a line of reasoning that as an NFL QB there will be less scrutiny, less pressure, less frustration for someone by his own dad's admission doesn't deal very well and acts out negatively.

Manziel has often been compared to Wilson. Russel Wilson came in as a 3rd rounder with little pressure to play immediately. A conservative, reserved, religious person who went to sleep in the playbook. Conversely, you believe that Manziel will be able to get his party and stay in his playbook and maintain his body, when he's not drinking of course, all while under the pressure of being a Top 5 draft pick. Why not just do the more logical thing and stay away??


First off, I'm don't consider myself an armchair GM. You can only evaluate what you see. You don't however know these people personally or have any insight into their lives.

So if happens the Raiders did select JF, I'd assume they did a lot of homework and were comfortable with it.

And sure, do the logical thing and stay away in the top 5. But later in the first if he was to fall, I'm making moves. Taking a risk on playmakers w/ some issues can work and has proven too. Sure wish Oakland would have give Burfict a chance as one example.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6190
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

+1

BP, you have become more concerned with being right than getting it right. A good evaluator has to know when to bail on his evaluation. You are trying to use a line of reasoning that as an NFL QB there will be less scrutiny, less pressure, less frustration for someone by his own dad's admission doesn't deal very well and acts out negatively.

Manziel has often been compared to Wilson. Russel Wilson came in as a 3rd rounder with little pressure to play immediately. A conservative, reserved, religious person who went to sleep in the playbook. Conversely, you believe that Manziel will be able to get his party and stay in his playbook and maintain his body, when he's not drinking of course, all while under the pressure of being a Top 5 draft pick. Why not just do the more logical thing and stay away??


First off, I'm don't consider myself an armchair GM. You can only evaluate what you see. You don't however know these people personally or have any insight into their lives.

So if happens the Raiders did select JF, I'd assume they did a lot of homework and were comfortable with it.

And sure, do the logical thing and stay away in the top 5. But later in the first if he was to fall, I'm making moves. Taking a risk on playmakers w/ some issues can work and has proven too. Sure wish Oakland would have give Burfict a chance as one example.


I don't know how you can't see obvious red flags. You're choosing to ignore them. If the Raiders selected Manziel and these issue did arise then it would the nail in the coffin and I wouldn't be comfortable. I would question their draft process even more than I already do.

I'm for taking chances on players . . . . just NOT at QB because having a questionable character at QB rarely works out.
_________________
Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big Rob


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 2074
Location: Long Beach, Ca
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if we go Watkins

wed have a nice trio with him, Streater and Moore. I think Moore can be nice in the slot Streater can be our downfield threat and Watkins can do it all...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Rob wrote:
if we go Watkins

wed have a nice trio with him, Streater and Moore. I think Moore can be nice in the slot Streater can be our downfield threat and Watkins can do it all...


I honestly question why you mentioned Moore in that 3. I see more hope in Holmes than I do Moore at this point. Less proven, but more hope. I don't think Moore is a significant part of the long term future here, Holmes is at least a maybe on that. He made more wow plays in his short time than all of our other WRs combined for the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 20680
Location: Crown Town, CA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
I honestly question why you mentioned Moore in that 3. I see more hope in Holmes than I do Moore at this point. Less proven, but more hope. I don't think Moore is a significant part of the long term future here, Holmes is at least a maybe on that. He made more wow plays in his short time than all of our other WRs combined for the year.


Minus Streater, I agree. Streater goes way to under appreciated around here. He made a ton of tough jump ball catches this year along with some of the underthrown passes from Pryor and at times, McGloin.

I do like Holmes though. No need for Mike Evans when you have a faster version of him already on the roster.
_________________

SaveourSonics wrote:
Yea, RaiderX wins. We can all just top acting like this is a matter of opinion. MY GOD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 34052
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaiderX wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I honestly question why you mentioned Moore in that 3. I see more hope in Holmes than I do Moore at this point. Less proven, but more hope. I don't think Moore is a significant part of the long term future here, Holmes is at least a maybe on that. He made more wow plays in his short time than all of our other WRs combined for the year.


Minus Streater, I agree. Streater goes way to under appreciated around here. He made a ton of tough jump ball catches this year along with some of the underthrown passes from Pryor and at times, McGloin.

I do like Holmes though. No need for Mike Evans when you have a faster version of him already on the roster.

Agreed. Streater gets no love on here.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ro4DPoY


Joined: 12 Jul 2010
Posts: 553
Location: VA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
RaiderX wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I honestly question why you mentioned Moore in that 3. I see more hope in Holmes than I do Moore at this point. Less proven, but more hope. I don't think Moore is a significant part of the long term future here, Holmes is at least a maybe on that. He made more wow plays in his short time than all of our other WRs combined for the year.


Minus Streater, I agree. Streater goes way to under appreciated around here. He made a ton of tough jump ball catches this year along with some of the underthrown passes from Pryor and at times, McGloin.

I do like Holmes though. No need for Mike Evans when you have a faster version of him already on the roster.

Agreed. Streater gets no love on here.


Don't agree, I love me some Streater. I think he gets the amount of appreciation he deserves on this forum. He's just apart of a bad situation right now.
_________________
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Cody Hoffman is the best wr in this draft. Write it down take a pic idgaf


Been wanting to do this for a while now. Let's see what happens.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OakleyCap


Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 7118
Location: CA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manziel will have Tebow-esque hype surrounding him during his entire professional career. ESPN and the rest of sports media love to talk about Manziel.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we were the team that took a flyer on him in the first round. Reggie McKenzie's ability to scout quarterbacks has proven to be below average thus far.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

+1

BP, you have become more concerned with being right than getting it right. A good evaluator has to know when to bail on his evaluation. You are trying to use a line of reasoning that as an NFL QB there will be less scrutiny, less pressure, less frustration for someone by his own dad's admission doesn't deal very well and acts out negatively.

Manziel has often been compared to Wilson. Russel Wilson came in as a 3rd rounder with little pressure to play immediately. A conservative, reserved, religious person who went to sleep in the playbook. Conversely, you believe that Manziel will be able to get his party and stay in his playbook and maintain his body, when he's not drinking of course, all while under the pressure of being a Top 5 draft pick. Why not just do the more logical thing and stay away??


First off, I'm don't consider myself an armchair GM. You can only evaluate what you see. You don't however know these people personally or have any insight into their lives.

So if happens the Raiders did select JF, I'd assume they did a lot of homework and were comfortable with it.

And sure, do the logical thing and stay away in the top 5. But later in the first if he was to fall, I'm making moves. Taking a risk on playmakers w/ some issues can work and has proven too. Sure wish Oakland would have give Burfict a chance as one example.


I don't know how you can't see obvious red flags. You're choosing to ignore them. If the Raiders selected Manziel and these issue did arise then it would the nail in the coffin and I wouldn't be comfortable. I would question their draft process even more than I already do.

I'm for taking chances on players . . . . just NOT at QB because having a questionable character at QB rarely works out.


I see the red flags. I'm not ignoring them. However, I see a heck of a football player as well.

I wouldn't take him over about 3-4 prospects, but would take him with a trade down.

Lastly, with the rookie wage scale, missing on a QB doesn't set the team back any. You have to have a QB to win in this league. So you're going to have to take some chances. If you miss, then try again until you find one.

I'd rather miss taking a chance on a playmaker who's game has improved steadily every year than take another shot on a middle round QB w/ limited potential.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Oakland Raiders All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group