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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 10990
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reggiesucks wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Reggiesucks wrote:
I'm probably higher on Manziel than most


Why? Please use tangible evidence also b/c the whole "he's a playmaker" and "he tore up the SEC" really don't mean much when discussing why a prospect will succeed at the professional level.


Playing well against the SEC might not mean much to you but it lets me know that he can play well against top tier defenses with NFL talent.


Tim Tebow and JaMarcus Russell just gave you the best high five ever!!

Quote:
Also Manziel completed 73 percent of his passes from inside of the pocket this season, best among quarterbacks from BCS automatic-qualifier conferences, So the argument that he can't be accurate from the pocket doesn't hold water. He completed at least 65 percent of his passes from inside of the pocket in every game but one this season.


Oh it doesn't? Do you know for a fact or are you just staring at a number? I saw a guy who threw a lot of prayers up and allowed Evans to get balls simply b/c he's too big for collegiate defenders. Also, if you're going to use these stats, please cite you source.

Quote:
His 97.0 Total QBR and 53 percent first-down conversion rate in third-down situations lead the nation.


Means nothing. Again, these are collegiate accomplishments which I inadvertently asked you not to use.

Quote:
He also completed 48 percent of his passes thrown 25 yards or longer this season. SO he also has a good deep ball


Refer to my Evans point above. It applies here. Just b/c someone has a high completion % doesn't necessarily mean they're accurate.

Quote:
For those who says he's going to be a mess or he's not going to perform well in the NFL, what are you basing that off of?


Stuff that actually matters:

Poor pocket presence
Awful awareness
Subpar arm
Poor accuracy
small in height
small in size
Likes to run before he passes
Shoddy decision making


Quote:
It can't be his performance on the field.


Tim Tebow wrote:

I completely agree, man!!! I've been telling these guys for years that this is the most important thing to look at!! Want a Jockey t-shirt? I have some extras


Quote:
He actually had a better statistical year this year than his Heisman trophy year.


Means nothing.

Quote:
He's played the best and performed at a very high level.


Means nothing.

Quote:
What else can you ask of a QB?


All of the things I mentioned a few quotes above. To be good at those things.

Quote:
I personally think he should be in a West Coast offense but regardless I would be very happy taking him with the 5th pick.


Well, I hope you're disappointed so you're not disappointed for 3 more years when we're looking for a new QB.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 10990
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Reggiesucks wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Reggiesucks wrote:
I'm probably higher on Manziel than most


Why? Please use tangible evidence also b/c the whole "he's a playmaker" and "he tore up the SEC" really don't mean much when discussing why a prospect will succeed at the professional level.


Playing well against the SEC might not mean much to you but it lets me know that he can play well against top tier defenses with NFL talent.


The same SEC that play-making "winner" Tebow used to carve up?

Quote:
When we in the football media have talked about Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel’s reputation for partying, we’ve mostly discussed it in terms of how his enjoyment of night life might affect his football career. But Manziel’s parents have much more significant concerns about their son.

In a revealing profile of the Manziel family for ESPN the Magazine, Wright Thompson quotes Paul Manziel, the father of the Heisman Trophy-winning quarterback, expressing concern about what might become of his son. Paul Manziel believes Johnny feels so much pressure from all the scrutiny that comes with being a star quarterback that he might snap.

“Yeah, it could come unraveled. And when it does, it’s gonna be bad. Real bad,” Paul Manziel said. “It’s one night away from the phone ringing, and he’s in jail. And you know what he’s gonna say? ‘It’s better than all the pressure I’ve been under. This is better than that.’”

Manziel’s dad also said that his son drinks to deal with stress, and has anger issues that cause concern for the family.

“I don’t know where the anger comes from,” Paul said. “I don’t think he knows. If it comes from his drinking, or if he’s mad at himself for not being a better person when he fails, when he fails God and his mom and me. If it makes him angry that he’s got demons in him. You can only speculate because you can’t go in there.”

Paul Manziel suggested that Texas A&M isn’t providing the kind of guidance that he’d like to see his son receive in college.

“He still needs to see he’s wrong — and how to control his temper. And if I give up on him, who’s gonna take over? The school sure the hell isn’t gonna do it,” he said.

Paul Manziel also strongly suggested that his son will leave Texas A&M to enter the 2014 NFL draft, saying the family is getting tired of NCAA investigations.

“It’s starting to get under our skin,” Paul says. “They’re so selfish.”

In the NFL, Johnny Manziel won’t have to worry about NCAA compliance rules. But he’ll also be expected to conduct himself like a grown man. And his father seems to wonder if Johnny has grown up enough to do that.


So from his own father's mouth, Manziel has anger issues and drinks when he feels media pressure. But as a Top 5 draft pick there will no media scrutiny about Manziel's work ethic, right? How many red flags do you need? This is his own father speaking about Manziel's weak "I drink to deal with the pressure" character flaws. Sound familiar even the least bit??

Naaaa, probably not to you . . . . . .



LOLLLLL oh my god..... no, no, no, no.

I had no idea about this. He is going to fall in May. I just have a feeling......
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Speed_Wrench


Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 4532
Location: Bay area
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Reggiesucks wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Reggiesucks wrote:
I'm probably higher on Manziel than most


Why? Please use tangible evidence also b/c the whole "he's a playmaker" and "he tore up the SEC" really don't mean much when discussing why a prospect will succeed at the professional level.


Playing well against the SEC might not mean much to you but it lets me know that he can play well against top tier defenses with NFL talent.


The same SEC that play-making "winner" Tebow used to carve up?

Quote:
When we in the football media have talked about Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel’s reputation for partying, we’ve mostly discussed it in terms of how his enjoyment of night life might affect his football career. But Manziel’s parents have much more significant concerns about their son.

In a revealing profile of the Manziel family for ESPN the Magazine, Wright Thompson quotes Paul Manziel, the father of the Heisman Trophy-winning quarterback, expressing concern about what might become of his son. Paul Manziel believes Johnny feels so much pressure from all the scrutiny that comes with being a star quarterback that he might snap.

“Yeah, it could come unraveled. And when it does, it’s gonna be bad. Real bad,” Paul Manziel said. “It’s one night away from the phone ringing, and he’s in jail. And you know what he’s gonna say? ‘It’s better than all the pressure I’ve been under. This is better than that.’”

Manziel’s dad also said that his son drinks to deal with stress, and has anger issues that cause concern for the family.

“I don’t know where the anger comes from,” Paul said. “I don’t think he knows. If it comes from his drinking, or if he’s mad at himself for not being a better person when he fails, when he fails God and his mom and me. If it makes him angry that he’s got demons in him. You can only speculate because you can’t go in there.”

Paul Manziel suggested that Texas A&M isn’t providing the kind of guidance that he’d like to see his son receive in college.

“He still needs to see he’s wrong — and how to control his temper. And if I give up on him, who’s gonna take over? The school sure the hell isn’t gonna do it,” he said.

Paul Manziel also strongly suggested that his son will leave Texas A&M to enter the 2014 NFL draft, saying the family is getting tired of NCAA investigations.

“It’s starting to get under our skin,” Paul says. “They’re so selfish.”

In the NFL, Johnny Manziel won’t have to worry about NCAA compliance rules. But he’ll also be expected to conduct himself like a grown man. And his father seems to wonder if Johnny has grown up enough to do that.


So from his own father's mouth, Manziel has anger issues and drinks when he feels media pressure. But as a Top 5 draft pick there will no media scrutiny about Manziel's work ethic, right? How many red flags do you need? This is his own father speaking about Manziel's weak "I drink to deal with the pressure" character flaws. Sound familiar even the least bit??

Naaaa, probably not to you . . . . . .



LOLLLLL oh my god..... no, no, no, no.

I had no idea about this. He is going to fall in May. I just have a feeling......


Ticking time bomb.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For real. Anyone who wants this kid needs to be lol'd at. Hard.

I mean, if it's some random Joe Schmo, I could see it being heightened, but your own dad?? That's the biggest red flag of them all.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
For real. Anyone who wants this kid needs to be lol'd at. Hard.


This isn't the usual way I go about making people laugh. But go ahead:



Current BB:
1. Clowney
2. Bridgewater
3. Bortles
4. Mack
5. Manziel
6. Barr
7. Watkins
8. Matthews
9. Robinson
10. Evans
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MrOaktown_56


Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 524
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Reggiesucks wrote:
I'm probably higher on Manziel than most


Why? Please use tangible evidence also b/c the whole "he's a playmaker" and "he tore up the SEC" really don't mean much when discussing why a prospect will succeed at the professional level.


To be fair, Manziel is well liked for his intangibles like "making plays". He may run a fast 40 and show great accuracy in drills because he's working with George Whitfield, who worked with Cam Newton and Andrew Luck before the combine.

As far as pros:
-great mobility and ability to extend plays
-vision down the field when scrambling/decision making
-great running ability and ability to make people miss
-good leader as far as motivation from his team according to interviews, Manziel is a "leader" on the field (not off)
cons:
-sometimes will go for ill-advised "big play"
-hasn't operated much out of a pro style offense (a la Bridgewater)
-can take shots from defenders because he holds out on plays for so long
-likes to party, minor (not major) character concerns
-arm strength isn't elite (not a huge deal honestly)

Obv Manziel is Polarizing for a prospect (cue Tebow comparisons), but I think that he's franchise qb material, especially given the popularization of mobile pocket passers (think luck, wilson, kap, rg3, newton, etc.). And I do think the guy can grow even more as a pocket passer, as he did from his freshman to sophomore year. I don't know if he's a good fit for us despite olsen's presence and the west coast, but I wouldn't be opposed to Manziel at 5 because he would bring some excitement and fire back into the organization.


Pros:
- Excellent mobility.
- Disagree about decision making. He threw a ton of jump balls to Evans. He will need that security blanket. He also runs when there's no pressure. Bad decision
- Kinda coincides w/ the first point. They should be grouped together IMO.
- I guess I can agree.
Cons:
- Agreed.
- Definitely agree but the pistol formation and it's booming popularity kinda nullifies this IMO.
- This will murder him in the NFL especially b/c of how small he looks.
- I think it's a huge concern. If he stops it now, not as much. Leinart agrees.
- Oh arm strength is certainly a big deal especially when you lack accuracy like Manziel.

You think he's franchise material but when you describe a franchise QB, you really talk about the pros and cons list you gave me??? Really? Can you also show me evidence of where he became more of a pocket passer? I see a guy running all over the place all the time. He has bad accuracy flat footed and much better on the run so he seemed to favor that style more.

It would bring excitement and fire back, you're right. Just like Pryor did. How did that work out? I would prefer someone who can bring talent back to this organization.I believe Manziel lacks that.


Actually, I don't think Manziel truly needs a security blanket. If you look at his overall stats, he throws most of his balls to his #2 and 3 receivers on his 2nd or 3rd read. As for pocket passing, he for sure has made a concerted effort to become a better passer. His freshman year, he was a 1 read and go guy, sorta like pryor, but this year, he's made a concerted effort to make reads; it's paid off. According to nfl.com, Manziel completes 55.8% of his passes down field (20 yards or more), a higher percentage than teddy b and carr. To be fair, I don't think johnny football should go higher than teddy on any level, but I do like him a lot. According to bleacher report (ha ha), an AFC west scout said that Manziel should "go in the top 10 for sure) so that definitely means something.
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big_palooka


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Posts: 21731
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:

Actually, I don't think Manziel truly needs a security blanket. If you look at his overall stats, he throws most of his balls to his #2 and 3 receivers on his 2nd or 3rd read. As for pocket passing, he for sure has made a concerted effort to become a better passer. His freshman year, he was a 1 read and go guy, sorta like pryor, but this year, he's made a concerted effort to make reads; it's paid off. According to nfl.com, Manziel completes 55.8% of his passes down field (20 yards or more), a higher percentage than teddy b and carr. To be fair, I don't think johnny football should go higher than teddy on any level, but I do like him a lot. According to bleacher report (ha ha), an AFC west scout said that Manziel should "go in the top 10 for sure) so that definitely means something.


Honestly man, don't waste your breath with JTagg. He and his "buddy the scout" hate Manziel which is fine. But when JTagg doesn't like a player, he is going to redundantly beat it to death because you do.

There is a lot to like about Manziel. He's steadily improved his game through college on the biggest stage w/ all eyes watching. He's a playmaker with his arm and legs. You can see vast improvements in his pocket passing.

In college, he was used to being the man among boys, shaking off defenders and making erratic throws. That won't fly in the NFL and he'll take his lumps learning that.

In the end, he's a gritty Jeff Garcia type player who with a little maturity can be a special talent. IMO, a west coast offense will suit his skill set (ala Garcia). The junk about him being inaccurate is just nonsense. Kid delivers the ball well both deep and intermediate.

The "he had Mike Evans" arguments are boring as well. He's a QB who let's his WRs make plays. I'd take that (and the occasional mistake) over the QB who plays it safe all the time checking it down if something isn't wide open.

He's a heck of leader on the field, tireless worker according to coaches and teammates. Whomever he goes to he will give them a jolt of excitement early.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:

Actually, I don't think Manziel truly needs a security blanket. If you look at his overall stats, he throws most of his balls to his #2 and 3 receivers on his 2nd or 3rd read. As for pocket passing, he for sure has made a concerted effort to become a better passer. His freshman year, he was a 1 read and go guy, sorta like pryor, but this year, he's made a concerted effort to make reads; it's paid off. According to nfl.com, Manziel completes 55.8% of his passes down field (20 yards or more), a higher percentage than teddy b and carr. To be fair, I don't think johnny football should go higher than teddy on any level, but I do like him a lot. According to bleacher report (ha ha), an AFC west scout said that Manziel should "go in the top 10 for sure) so that definitely means something.



Where did you get this from?
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:

Actually, I don't think Manziel truly needs a security blanket. If you look at his overall stats, he throws most of his balls to his #2 and 3 receivers on his 2nd or 3rd read. As for pocket passing, he for sure has made a concerted effort to become a better passer. His freshman year, he was a 1 read and go guy, sorta like pryor, but this year, he's made a concerted effort to make reads; it's paid off. According to nfl.com, Manziel completes 55.8% of his passes down field (20 yards or more), a higher percentage than teddy b and carr. To be fair, I don't think johnny football should go higher than teddy on any level, but I do like him a lot. According to bleacher report (ha ha), an AFC west scout said that Manziel should "go in the top 10 for sure) so that definitely means something.


Honestly man, don't waste your breath with JTagg. He and his "buddy the scout" hate Manziel which is fine. But when JTagg doesn't like a player, he is going to redundantly beat it to death because you do.

There is a lot to like about Manziel. He's steadily improved his game through college on the biggest stage w/ all eyes watching. He's a playmaker with his arm and legs. You can see vast improvements in his pocket passing.

In college, he was used to being the man among boys, shaking off defenders and making erratic throws. That won't fly in the NFL and he'll take his lumps learning that.

In the end, he's a gritty Jeff Garcia type player who with a little maturity can be a special talent. IMO, a west coast offense will suit his skill set (ala Garcia). The junk about him being inaccurate is just nonsense. Kid delivers the ball well both deep and intermediate.

The "he had Mike Evans" arguments are boring as well. He's a QB who let's his WRs make plays. I'd take that (and the occasional mistake) over the QB who plays it safe all the time checking it down if something isn't wide open.

He's a heck of leader on the field, tireless worker according to coaches and teammates. Whomever he goes to he will give them a jolt of excitement early.


I forgot to cite my source : http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/30/johnny-manziels-dad-worries-it-could-all-come-unraveled/

So you're STILL advocating for a guy with drinking and anger management issues that doesn't deal with pressure and scrutiny very well per his dad??

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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 10990
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
For real. Anyone who wants this kid needs to be lol'd at. Hard.


This isn't the usual way I go about making people laugh. But go ahead:



Current BB:
1. Clowney
2. Bridgewater
3. Bortles
4. Mack
5. Manziel
6. Barr
7. Watkins
8. Matthews
9. Robinson
10. Evans


Everyone's got their ways of getting and giving laughs. Bortles lackadaisical delivery still doesn't worry you? I mean, it's not Leftwich bad but it's certainly not quick. I figured you'd be able to see why Manziel is a huge issue but you have him pretty high. What about his game do you feel makes him the 5th best prospect in the draft? What doesn't worry you?
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:

Actually, I don't think Manziel truly needs a security blanket. If you look at his overall stats, he throws most of his balls to his #2 and 3 receivers on his 2nd or 3rd read. As for pocket passing, he for sure has made a concerted effort to become a better passer. His freshman year, he was a 1 read and go guy, sorta like pryor, but this year, he's made a concerted effort to make reads; it's paid off. According to nfl.com, Manziel completes 55.8% of his passes down field (20 yards or more), a higher percentage than teddy b and carr. To be fair, I don't think johnny football should go higher than teddy on any level, but I do like him a lot. According to bleacher report (ha ha), an AFC west scout said that Manziel should "go in the top 10 for sure) so that definitely means something.


Where are these stats and throwing to these receivers? I'm not saying he did it all the time b/c Evans would have insane numbers but he did do it more often than not. You're right, I agree he has made an effort but he's still not very good at it. I believe it's fairly easy to see he prefers throwing on the run.

And don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care what scouts think. I know, I'm just some dude in Ohio but I feel I know enough to gauge my own opinion. Hell, I never understood why Russell was even considered a first round pick and I took hell for it but whatever. I do like some stuff about Manziel but the things I don't like about him, or the red flags, are far, far greater than those things that are positive IMO
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:


I forgot to cite my source : http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/30/johnny-manziels-dad-worries-it-could-all-come-unraveled/

So you're STILL advocating for a guy with drinking and anger management issues that doesn't deal with pressure and scrutiny very well per his dad??


For real. I mean, this is the guy's DAD not just some random guy. That is extremely worrisome.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:

Actually, I don't think Manziel truly needs a security blanket. If you look at his overall stats, he throws most of his balls to his #2 and 3 receivers on his 2nd or 3rd read. As for pocket passing, he for sure has made a concerted effort to become a better passer. His freshman year, he was a 1 read and go guy, sorta like pryor, but this year, he's made a concerted effort to make reads; it's paid off. According to nfl.com, Manziel completes 55.8% of his passes down field (20 yards or more), a higher percentage than teddy b and carr. To be fair, I don't think johnny football should go higher than teddy on any level, but I do like him a lot. According to bleacher report (ha ha), an AFC west scout said that Manziel should "go in the top 10 for sure) so that definitely means something.


Honestly man, don't waste your breath with JTagg. He and his "buddy the scout" hate Manziel which is fine. But when JTagg doesn't like a player, he is going to redundantly beat it to death because you do.

There is a lot to like about Manziel. He's steadily improved his game through college on the biggest stage w/ all eyes watching. He's a playmaker with his arm and legs. You can see vast improvements in his pocket passing.

In college, he was used to being the man among boys, shaking off defenders and making erratic throws. That won't fly in the NFL and he'll take his lumps learning that.

In the end, he's a gritty Jeff Garcia type player who with a little maturity can be a special talent. IMO, a west coast offense will suit his skill set (ala Garcia). The junk about him being inaccurate is just nonsense. Kid delivers the ball well both deep and intermediate.

The "he had Mike Evans" arguments are boring as well. He's a QB who let's his WRs make plays. I'd take that (and the occasional mistake) over the QB who plays it safe all the time checking it down if something isn't wide open.

He's a heck of leader on the field, tireless worker according to coaches and teammates. Whomever he goes to he will give them a jolt of excitement early.


I forgot to cite my source : http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/30/johnny-manziels-dad-worries-it-could-all-come-unraveled/

So you're STILL advocating for a guy with drinking and anger management issues that doesn't deal with pressure and scrutiny very well per his dad??


I'm advocating what I see on the field.

Begs the question though. Why would his father present these statements knowing it could potentially hurt his sons draft stock?

JF won't be the big man on campus, freshman heisman winner with all eyes on him at the next level. Maybe he he needs a year to sit and be unseen to allow a maturation to happen.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 21731
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:


I forgot to cite my source : http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/30/johnny-manziels-dad-worries-it-could-all-come-unraveled/

So you're STILL advocating for a guy with drinking and anger management issues that doesn't deal with pressure and scrutiny very well per his dad??


For real. I mean, this is the guy's DAD not just some random guy. That is extremely worrisome.


Oh wow…. this Article is from JULY 2013 in the midst of his offseason issues with everyone looking for answers.

Mildly relevant to the conversation now that he's taken the pressure in stride, had a great improved season and is working hard to prep for the draft.

Maybe there has been some growth and maturity with him since JULY 2013. Maybe he's worked through some demons.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Palooka, 2 things.

1. Less Pressure waits for NOONE at the NFL level. Heisman winner or not, there's not one bit less pressure waiting for the guy in the NFL.

2. Maybe his dad said that without thinking about his draft stock, rather just a father being a father who doesn't want to see his son end up an alcoholic, DWI manslaughter case, in jail, or dead. It's a bit more important if you think about it a moment.
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